Is Dex Really Required for Rogues?

[Cikomyr]

So one of my player had the idea of playing a Dwarven Swashbuckler. I was wondering how dependent on a good Dex score the Rogue/Swashbuckler really is. Could he invest his stats more into strength instead, and depend on proficiency and expertise for Dex skills?

[OldTrees1]

Your player could go for a Strength Rogue. I am in a group with a Goliath Barbarian/Rogue. Just grab 20 daggers and you are good to go.

You can rely on Expertise to cover skills you want. Expertise is roughly equivalent to High score + Proficiency. So the Strength Rogue is not as good at Dex skills as a Dex Rogue but their Expertise lets them perform as well as any other proficient & talented individual. In addition you can really excel at Strength skills.

The biggest hurdle, and it is a tiny one, is Sneak Attack requiring a finesse or ranged weapon. However you can still use strength with finesse weapons and thrown ranged weapons let you use strength. This is where the 20 daggers comes in handy for a Strength Rogue.

[mythmonster2]

Str only really gets you bonus damage, which you can already get with Dex on pretty much everything except the longsword. Str also only has one skill, with Athletics. By contrast, Dex gives you armor class, initiative, and bonuses to the most "rogue-y" skills. Nothing wrong with going strength, and with 5e balanced the way it is, you won't be at a terrible disadvantage, but it's probably more efficient to go Dex and use expertise on Athletics.

[Naanomi]

You are going to need some for defenses in most cases... either 13 to multiclass into heavy armor, or 14 for medium armor, or 14/16 for light armor... unless you are playing a Tortle or Loxodon... but beyond that, your attack stat can easily be strength (still use a finesse or ranged weapon for sneak attack though); or even Wisdom/Charisma via Hexblade dip or Magic Stone (available via Magic Initiate feat, amongst other ways)

[ProsecutorGodot]

Absolutely, Sneak Attack only requires that you use a Finesse or Ranged Weapon. Unfortunately, the character won't be making much use out of a ranged weapon but Rapier/Shortsword/Dagger are all perfectly usable options for a Swashbuckler.

The only place where you might struggle is with your AC where by default Rogues only have proficiency in Light Armor. This isn't even a problem if the player chooses Mountain Dwarf as they start with Medium Armor Proficiency.

This specific character might be a bit MAD (Multi Ability Dependant) on creation since a Dex Score of 14 is advised for a Medium Armor build, Strength being a Primary Attack Stat, Con being just about required to be at least 14 and Swashbucklers specifically wanting Cha for several class abilities. Nothing you can't fix with either a good stat roll or those extra ASI you earn down the line.

[jaappleton]

Is Dex required for a Rogue?

If you stay in Light Armor? Essentially, yes, because Light relies on your Dex for AC.

If you can somehow get Medium? Especially with shield proficiency somehow? You can absolutely build a very viable Str-based Rogue.

One of my new favorite builds for Str-based Rogues is to go Artificer 1 - Rogue X - Arcane Trickster. This even lets you get Cure Wounds to key off Wisdom if you ever need it in a pinch.

[Naanomi]

This isn't even a problem if the player chooses Mountain Dwarf as they start with Medium Armor Proficiency.
Or Githyanki, though in either case you’d probably want 14 DEX (or 13 and a Heavy Armor class dip)

[jaappleton]

Speaking of Gith and Mountain Dwarf:

Doesn't help AC, but if you wanted a slashing Finesse weapon (As opposed to Piercing), the only way I know how to get it with a starting race is via Hobgoblin.

[Snowbluff]

I would say that Athletics + expertise + a good strength score makes for a great grappler to start with.

On top of using Finesse weapons as mentioned above, the Barb/Rogue isa great combo. The two classes compliment each other very well.

[CTurbo]

A Mountain Dwarf could go focus on Str and just live with a 14 Dex and would have a good AC of 17 in Halfplate, or 16 in Breastplate and still be sneaky.

You can use Str with Finesse weapons so no issue there.

So no Dex is absolutely not required for Rogues at all.

[Citan]

So one of my player had the idea of playing a Dwarven Swashbuckler. I was wondering how dependent on a good Dex score the Rogue/Swashbuckler really is. Could he invest his stats more into strength instead, and depend on proficiency and expertise for Dex skills?
No Dex is not required. It does facilitate certain aspects though at low levels.

Str only really gets you bonus damage, which you can already get with Dex on pretty much everything except the longsword. Str also only has one skill, with Athletics. By contrast, Dex gives you armor class, initiative, and bonuses to the most "rogue-y" skills. Nothing wrong with going strength, and with 5e balanced the way it is, you won't be at a terrible disadvantage, but it's probably more efficient to go Dex and use expertise on Athletics.
This is sadly extremely reductive.
Strength does not get only bonus damage. It also...

1. Gives better escape against opponent's Grapples/Shoves (especially with Athletics Expertise for Shoving yourself) or spell effects like Entangle, which can otherwise quickly lead a Rogue to death, considering he's not *that* resilient. Reminder: Uncanny Dodge works against one *single* instance of damage *per round*.

2. Allows a wider variety of weapons, including magic weapons. In the *specific* case of Rogue though, this benefit is obviously much narrower considering the requirements for Sneak Attack. So we'll put that one aside.

3. Allows use of heavy armor with small dip or feats. For a pure Rogue, I'd say Heavily Armored is a waste, while Moderately Armored is a perfect fit. Just a level of Fighter is enough to make it largely worth it.

4. Empowers you with a much larger carry capacity: for a Rogue, especially a *Thief* (carrying bag of loot) or an *Assassin* (carrying hostage/victim) this can be veeeeery important. Sure, you can manage some other way (especially with Ritual Caster feat for Floating Disk or similar) but those other ways are fairly cumbersome and costly in comparison.

5. Opens some interesting and original combinations of feats and races that empowers your Roguish tactics. Simple examples:
- Half-Orc with Orcish Fury that can turn a fail into potential win (drop to 0 -> Instead 1 HP with off-turn potential Sneak Attack)
- Dragonborn with Dragonfear on a Swashbuckler is thematic and fits mechanically too.
- Extreme Grappler: Grappler feat on an Arcane Tricskter (Enlarge) to ensure you get advantage even if you want to drag someone around or use it as cover (or simply ensure it won't move) instead of wasting action to Shove every turn.
- Dual Wielder, for a nice mix of boost between offense, defense, ability to use magic weapons.
- Second Chance on a Halfling Arcane Trickster Rogue spent on Constitution instead for a nice benefit + concentration/HP boost.

So going DEX is certainly easier for some things (namely Stealth, Initiative and Sleight of Hand), and overall gives more "built-in" flexibility (easy to switch from melee to range, no penalty whatsoever for trying stealth with some armor), especially at low levels.

But going STR simply means you'll get sensibly lesser at those particular skills before level 11. Once you get Reliable Talent, combined with Expertise, you'll simply rock 90% of the time so you won't feel that you have "only 14" DEX instead of 20.

The real draw is knowing why you'd rather go for STR instead of DEX. As long as reason is clear enough, player will be fine. :)

[NaughtyTiger]

I really enjoy my Mountain Dwarf Inquisitive.

RP is fun,
Damage is okay (I don't always do sneak attack damage, cuz i prefer a club for RP), grappling is good.

It is not an optimal build, you lose a bit. But it can work.

[jaappleton]

I really enjoy my Mountain Dwarf Inquisitive.

RP is fun,
Damage is okay (I don't always do sneak attack damage, cuz i prefer a club for RP), grappling is good.

It is not an optimal build, you lose a bit. But it can work.

Str-based that somehow has shield proficiency and Athletics expertise that takes Shield Master is pretty sweet.

[Naanomi]

A Loxodon or Tortle could conceivably be a very functional rogue with 8 STR and 8 DEX

[NaughtyTiger]

A Loxodon or Tortle could conceivably be a very functional rogue with 8 STR and 8 DEX

how?
not very stealthy
can't hit, so can't do damage

[jaappleton]

how?
not very stealthy
can't hit, so can't do damage

Loxodon have AC = 13+Dex, and Tortle set their AC at 17.

EDIT: 12+Dex

EDIT EDIT: Con. 12+ CON.

[Naanomi]

how?
not very stealthy
can't hit, so can't do damage
-A rogue can survive without Stealth
-Either a Loxodon or Tortle can get 17 Unarmored AC without DEX
-Magic Stone (via Magic Initiate) can Attack with your choice of Charisma or Wisdom (chosen when you take the feat)

Sherlock the Elephant:
Loxodon Inquisitive City Watch (Investigator)
8/8/17/14/16/10
Insight, Investigation, Perception, Survival, Stealth
Magic Initiate (Guidance, Magic Stone; Faerie Fire), Observant, +1 WIS/+1 CON, +2 WIS, Dungeon Delver, (Lucky or Alert)

AC 16, capable ranged combatant, absolutely maximized perception skills

[Yunru]

1. Gives better escape against opponent's Grapples/Shoves (especially with Athletics Expertise for Shoving yourself)
No it doesn't, given you can also use Acrobatics for that.

[Rukelnikov]

Loxodon have AC = 13+Dex, and Tortle set their AC at 17.

It's 12 + Con IIRC

[jaappleton]

It's 12 + Con IIRC

I believe you're right. I'll amend my post.

[Rukelnikov]

I believe you're right. I'll amend my post.

Lol, you still edited +Dex

[jaappleton]

Lol, you still edited +Dex

Heavy sigh.

[BoxANT]

Either a Fighter 1 / Rogue 19 or a race that can grab armor prof. (Human V. / Mountain Dwarf) can make good Str Rogues.

Just dump Dex, and wear heavy armor, who cares about stealth.

Also, at level 11, rogues get Reliable Talent, so even in heavy armor, you are still rolling at least an 11 on your stealth checks, and if you pick up expertise in it, your stealth rolls will be fine.

[djreynolds]

You have like 15 skill or so to chose from, AFB.

Go pure rogue, dump dex.

Fight with twin daggers. No shield needed.

Grab heavily armored and the grab HAM.

Who needs stealth? Focus on athletics, intimidation, charisma skills.

It's a great, strength based rogue

I played a battlemaster and swashbuckler, half orc... no traps or stealth for me. Expertise in athletics, perception, insight, and deception. The 13 in dexterity wasn't that costly but saves you on 2 feats.

[Unoriginal]

Nothing is stopping a Mountain Dwarf from having good DEX, though.

[Chronos]

Do keep in mind that if you're multiclassing, a rogue needs at least 13 Dex.

[Bjarkmundur]

I would without hesitation allow any of my players to go for a Strength rogue and simply give him medium Armor proficiency. I like to have a week of downtime after the first or second session of a new game. I'd just say that he was training for proficiency, and have him spend some gold to get the actual Armor.

[Citan]

No it doesn't, given you can also use Acrobatics for that.
Yeah it does.
You missed my point: if you want to be good at escaping AND yourself shoving, STR is better because the same Expertise applies to both cases.

If you go DEX, unless you spend another Expertise in Acrobatics, you'll mathematically be less good in escaping Grapples/Shoves than if you went plain full STR.

That the difference is a big deal or not can obviously be discussed. My opinion is that it becomes (like for most skills) irrevelant once you get Reliable Talent, but that is a 11th level feature. :)

[Aquillion]

Dex isn't strictly required for rogues, no. A lot of their "iconic" skills use it, including some skills they get class features to help with, but you can rely on Expertise and Reliable Talent and should still be all right. A Rogue with +0 Dexterity will still be able to, eventually, always hit at least a 22 on an expertised Dexterity skill, or a 16 even without the Dexterity. That's enough for most purposes.


Who needs stealth? Focus on athletics, intimidation, charisma skills.This is also an option. In my experience Expertise is better spent on shoring up weak skills that you're going to have to roll no matter what (ie. Perception.)

[stoutstien]

I would without hesitation allow any of my players to go for a Strength rogue and simply give him medium Armor proficiency. I like to have a week of downtime after the first or second session of a new game. I'd just say that he was training for proficiency, and have him spend some gold to get the actual Armor.
I'd say it's worth a trade for one skill at lv one.

[Dr. Cliché]

You could dip Hexblade and use Cha for everything. :smallbiggrin: