So lets say you have to march a rag tag army past Zariel

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Zariel is a CR26 Arch Devil. A party I run is in a ridiculous position where they have feed a large number of maybe 4,000 slaves, a mini army worth, past an angry Zariel. At the end of the last session the freed slaves were running towards the entrance to a cave which leads to a portal out and Zariel came flying in from overhead. The freed slaves are ARE a ragtag army and perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of them should have short bows for simplicity's sake.

The party has most of their allies with them. Last session we had the NPC's off board clearing some other Devils. In the past I've let the players run an NPC when their PC fell or if teh NPC was going to be with them for a bit.

The party has a spread of a Bard and her Simulacrum, a pretty optimized Paladin, another Bard, a Fighter, a Barbarian, a Warlock, and a Wizard. They have too many magic items but are pretty worn down.

My best idea for their path to success is to entice them to burn through Zariel's auto saves and then try to get her with not Feeblemind but something equally heavy that targets her Strength, Dex, or Con.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[MaxWilson]

What is she doing without an army of her own? Isn't the whole point of being an archdevil being able to, well, boss other devils around? The scenario gets significantly more interesting if it's Zariel, a Pit Fiend, two Narzugons, a dozen Merregons, and forty or so Barbed Devils. That's a force small enough to be mobile, tough enough to cut through a thousand shortbows like butter, and large enough to be a plausible mobile retinue for an archdevil.

[Unoriginal]

If Zariel is angry, she's not going to go in alone. She has a whole layer at her command.

Hell, it's likely she would use the opportunity and send Bel alone to destroy the group and the slaves, as a way to humiliate him/maybe get him killed, then only when the PCs are softened by that send a whole army on them.

[ProsecutorGodot]

One of the biggest reasons Zariel fell as an Angel was not just because she disobeyed orders and went to fight on the frontlines but because she brought others (Mortals, who ended up dead) with her. The idea that Zariel would be alone in this scenario is already against any reasonable expectation. In fact, she's considered to be the most aggressive recruiter of followers.

With that said, I've got a few questions:
-How is it that the slaves would have weapons at all? 1300-2000 shortbows? As slaves?
-Does this count as Zariel's Lair? They're literally on her layer of The Nine Hells. Is it within 1 mile of the lair? Did you know her lair is 5 square miles large?
-How much leeway did you give the party that they would even manage to mobilize 4000 slaves so that Zariel didn't immediately respond? That's an enormous amount of people to suddenly be moving in the "out of hell" direction.

If you want my honest suggestion, have Zariel roll intimidation (or persuasion, except this is definitely intimidation) against the Army. Those who are intimidated (read, the entire army is intimidated) turn on the party in hopes of earning enough "good will" from the Archdevil that she doesn't flay their souls for even thinking about escaping. That or they become paralyzed with fear, akin to an Oath of Conquest Paladin. If for some reason the army of slaves isn't intimidated Zariel has several AoE spells like Blade Barrier (3/day) or Fireball (at will) to char as many escapees as possible while also striking the party. DC 26 makes it unlikely that even the party will reliably make this saving throw.

[Lille]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it actually looks more like OP's trying to figure out how to not kill the PCs. While suggestions on how to kill the party are always good, that seems a bit counter-intuitive in this case.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it actually looks more like OP's trying to figure out how to not kill the PCs. While suggestions on how to kill the party are always good, that seems a bit counter-intuitive in this case.

Yeah, thats the goal.

For the loose background, a number of Yugoloths revolted against Zariel after a failed payment 20 years ago as Zariel had captured a Roman Legion worth of troops. This screwed up the usual power structure.

Now Zariel's army is chasing the slaves who had their Dparticus moment and are attempting to flee.

FWIW, the party killed Titivulus a pair of Erinyeses, and a dismounted Narzugon in a weird castle/fortress/keep/dungeon/corrupted prison full of chains which were tasked with guarding this portal which can only be opened from the material plane side.

Zariel flew in as a last minute thing when Titivulus was crying out to her.

But yeah, its contrived. I just don't wanna not give them a chance. I think tossing one of them a powerful summoned Planar Ally to play may help. Maybe not quite a Solar on the blue one.

[Unoriginal]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it actually looks more like OP's trying to figure out how to not kill the PCs. While suggestions on how to kill the party are always good, that seems a bit counter-intuitive in this case.

Thing is, if it comes down to a fight, it should kill the PCs. Or at least the slaves as the PCs escape.

This is an angry Archduke of Hell. On her home layer. With a total of 0 epic hero to help.

The only two entities in Hell who could oppose Zariel in that situation would be Asmodeus himself or Tiamat. Even a Demon Prince showing up in person would be in trouble .

So a bunch of adventurers with weak slaves in toe? Yeah, no.

One of their only chance to survive would be to run to the Styx and bargain with the Yugoloth who transport people out of Hell, but Zariel control how long traveling takes in her layer. Another would be getting help from another entity, but the very few would have the power to help them in that situation would be hard-pressed to find an interest in that situation.

This is like asking "my level 1 PCs decided to fire a siege engine at an Ancient Red Dragon who was passing by, how do I make so it does not kill them?"

Well, mostly, it does kill them.

Having them escape if it comes to blow makes the situation (being trapped in hell) and the antagonists (Zariel and her armies) into utter jokes that can be utterly discounted.


Yeah, thats the goal.

For the loose background, a number of Yugoloths revolted against Zariel after a failed payment 20 years ago as Zariel had captured a Roman Legion worth of troops. This screwed up the usual power structure.

Now Zariel's army is chasing the slaves who had their Dparticus moment and are attempting to flee.

FWIW, the party killed Titivulus a pair of Erinyeses, and a dismounted Narzugon in a weird castle/fortress/keep/dungeon/corrupted prison full of chains which were tasked with guarding this portal which can only be opened from the material plane side.

Zariel flew in as a last minute thing when Titivulus was crying out to her.

But yeah, its contrived. I just don't wanna not give them a chance. I think tossing one of them a powerful summoned Planar Ally to play may help. Maybe not quite a Solar on the blue one.

If the Yugoloth are pissed at Zariel for a contract breach (something Zariel wouldn't be able to do, but eh), then have them help.

The Yugoloth are the only ones who can navigate the Styx somewhat safely. They could agree to transport the slaves away, and maybe the PCs too.

[Marcelinari]

You seem to be attacking the premise of a thread where the stated goal was to ask for advice, rather than proposing an argument. It looks to me like we have to take a certain number of things as baseline assumptions, and then try and work from there. OP, correct me if I get any of these wrong.

1) The party needs to have a reasonable chance to escape.

2) The slaves need to have a non-zero chance to escape. As a DM, slaughtering the slaves that the PCs have invested time, resources, and emotions in freeing is unsatisfactory.

3) Zariel is alone. The PCs don’t need even more obstacles to deal with, she should be danger enough.

4) Zariel should be at minimal risk of dying herself. Unless this campaign is about an upset in the rulership of the Nine Hells, slating an Archdevil is probably too big an ask for the campaign world.

5) Successful escape should result in the PCs and slaves on a different plane, probably not a different hell. Additionally, the PCs will have just faced a CR 26 encounter, so throwing them into another hyper-dangerous situation (Gehenna, the Abyss) is probably unwise.

Again, there are a lot of assumptions there, but it looks to me like those are the baselines we need to follow. Correct me if I’m wrong.

[MaxWilson]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it actually looks more like OP's trying to figure out how to not kill the PCs. While suggestions on how to kill the party are always good, that seems a bit counter-intuitive in this case.

Simplest way not to kill the PCs is to have Zariel not be there. Doesn't mean she's not involved, but maybe she's more interested in having a foul-up that she can blame on someone else in Baator's power structure than she is in killing a bunch of random slaves with her own bare hands. But if she's trying to play office politics with the other archdukes, having her onsite only hurts her case because it gives everyone a chance to ask, "Well why didn't you do anything? You were right there!"

Is it too late to retcon her personal appearance out of the picture?

Edit: I guess the other way to do it would be to have her interested in gaining agents on the mortal plane. She can show up and push the PCs' faces in, in the most humiliating way possible (i.e. no holds barred except using non-lethal attacks on the final blow so PCs don't have to make death saves--or not), then take one of them as hostage while the other PCs are tasked with a little job on the Prime Material plane, such as planting a certain gemstone in a certain treasure vault, or killing a certain powerful wizard, or maybe both. Then maybe she'll give back the hostage.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You seem to be attacking the premise of a thread where the stated goal was to ask for advice, rather than proposing an argument. It looks to me like we have to take a certain number of things as baseline assumptions, and then try and work from there. OP, correct me if I get any of these wrong.

1) The party needs to have a reasonable chance to escape.

2) The slaves need to have a non-zero chance to escape. As a DM, slaughtering the slaves that the PCs have invested time, resources, and emotions in freeing is unsatisfactory.

3) Zariel is alone. The PCs don’t need even more obstacles to deal with, she should be danger enough.

4) Zariel should be at minimal risk of dying herself. Unless this campaign is about an upset in the rulership of the Nine Hells, slating an Archdevil is probably too big an ask for the campaign world.

5) Successful escape should result in the PCs and slaves on a different plane, probably not a different hell. Additionally, the PCs will have just faced a CR 26 encounter, so throwing them into another hyper-dangerous situation (Gehenna, the Abyss) is probably unwise.

Again, there are a lot of assumptions there, but it looks to me like those are the baselines we need to follow. Correct me if I’m wrong.

The issue (at least the one I'm having) is that these assumptions are entirely unrealistic. Out of the potential solutions that end up with the party not dying we have:
-Zariel isn't actually there
-Someone bigger comes to help, probably another Lord of Hell or Tiamat
-Run Run Run and don't die
-The "incredibly violent and known for ignoring politics in favor of beating the socks off you" Archdevil tries to make a deal. One that doesn't involve at least one of the party members becoming sworn into her devil army. The Paladin is the likely candidate for this route, as he is the most martially capable party member and draws parallels to her fall from grace for running head first into hell and fighting a losing battle.

In my opinion, any solution proposed so far is just going to make a literal war machine Archdevil with just about zero mercy look weak. I don't know the players, it might not bother them as much as it bothers me, but I can't personally think of a solution that doesn't make it seem like the players were just meant to "watch" as things happen around them. If they try to fight her, they're dead and there's no reasonable way for them to escape with the prisoners.

My best solution is to just get the party out of there, have some NPC berate them for the ridiculous premise of their escape plan, and work on a better plan for the next time they try this.

Either that, or as MaxWilson suggested, look for any excuse to not have Zariel personally involved. The party's already slim chances of this working out become virtually zero every time she gets involved. Her presence is the main hurdle that prevents me from suspending my disbelief and thinking the party has any chance in this.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You seem to be attacking the premise of a thread where the stated goal was to ask for advice, rather than proposing an argument. It looks to me like we have to take a certain number of things as baseline assumptions, and then try and work from there. OP, correct me if I get any of these wrong.

1) The party needs to have a reasonable chance to escape.

2) The slaves need to have a non-zero chance to escape. As a DM, slaughtering the slaves that the PCs have invested time, resources, and emotions in freeing is unsatisfactory.

3) Zariel is alone. The PCs don’t need even more obstacles to deal with, she should be danger enough.

4) Zariel should be at minimal risk of dying herself. Unless this campaign is about an upset in the rulership of the Nine Hells, slating an Archdevil is probably too big an ask for the campaign world.

5) Successful escape should result in the PCs and slaves on a different plane, probably not a different hell. Additionally, the PCs will have just faced a CR 26 encounter, so throwing them into another hyper-dangerous situation (Gehenna, the Abyss) is probably unwise.

Again, there are a lot of assumptions there, but it looks to me like those are the baselines we need to follow. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Marcelinari, you got it right. There is a chance I got / let the party get in over their heads.

The extended party should be able to cast Summon Planar Ally twice. So I can give them a Solar, a Planetar or even an Empyrean (If they're really tougher than a Solar), if necessary. My mechanics would be to put the mini for the Solar on the board and let one of the players run him in combat after I state "what the Solar's deal is". Something similar has worked in the past.

The Portal is just 15 feet wide. I need to distract Zariel for something like 30 - 60 rounds to get most of them out. The final members of the party can Planeshift out, I hope.

The Solar and Planetar could also get summoned and go after Zariel's weaker off screen, drawing her away from the party....

[JackPhoenix]

There are situations where PCs can act without a plan and still come up on top.

Trying to get too many weak NPCs out of Hell after you've pissed off an archdevil is not such situation. Stupid decisions deserve proper consequences. The PCs have way out, the slaves don't. That's life. Perhaps it'll motivate the characters to avenge them later, perhaps not. You've said it yourself: the slaves had their Spartacus moment. Don't forget how Spartacus ended up.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The Solar and Planetar could also get summoned and go after Zariel's weaker off screen, drawing her away from the party....
Just keep in mind that even attempting to stall Zariel is near suicidal for a Planetar or Solar, the cost to get them to agree to do so is going to be astronomical. An Empyrean would have a better chance of surviving.

The biggest issue, however, is speed. An Empyrean has absolutely no hope of keeping up, only being able to move 1/3 of her speed. Planetar do better in this regard but Zariel can teleport 120ft at will as a legendary action on top of her 150ft fly speed.

If you believe that she would rather kill the party than a few angels, they're not going to stop her from reaching the party.

[sithlordnergal]

...Queesstion, you said about 1/3 to 1/2 of 4000 had short bows, yes? Zariel only has resistance to non-magical weapon, not full immunity. Even with her AC of 21, if just 1/3 of the NPC's have bows, and 1/4 hit her, she's going to take about an average of 1168 point of damage, halved to 584 due to resistances. She has a max hp of 580 in her stat block. If one of you casts Chill Touch, your army can murder her due to numbers alone. Even if only 1/8th of people with bows hit her, that's still 584 damage halved to 292. Two rounds and she is gone, either dead or fleeing.

And that's a worst case scenario. If half of the 4000 strong army have short bows and attack her, your odds are even better. So...why not shoot her?

[ProsecutorGodot]

...Queesstion, you said about 1/3 to 1/2 of 4000 had short bows, yes? Zariel only has resistance to non-magical weapon, not full immunity. Even with her AC of 21, if just 1/3 of the NPC's have bows, and 1/4 hit her, she's going to take about an average of 1168 point of damage, halved to 584 due to resistances. She has a max hp of 580 in her stat block. If one of you casts Chill Touch, your army can murder her due to numbers alone. Even if only 1/8th of people with bows hit her, that's still 584 damage halved to 292. Two rounds and she is gone, either dead or fleeing.

And that's a worst case scenario. If half of the 4000 strong army have short bows and attack her, your odds are even better. So...why not shoot her?

I'm still questioning why slaves have a sizeable army's worth of shortbows and ammunition so shortly after being freed from slavery.

Is there a spell, other than wish, capable of this? Did the party come to hell with hundreds of bags of holding filled with shortbows and arrows? Thats 25k gp worth of Shortbow ignoring the cost of arrows. Is Avernus somehow filled top to bottom with shortbows even though demons and devils would likely not use such weapons?

[sithlordnergal]

I'm still questioning why slaves have a sizeable army's worth of shortbows and ammunition so shortly after being freed from slavery.

Is there a spell, other than wish, capable of this? Did the party come to hell with hundreds of bags of holding filled with shortbows and arrows? Thats 25k gp worth of Shortbow ignoring the cost of arrows. Is Avernus somehow filled top to bottom with shortbows even though demons and devils would likely not use such weapons?

I'm choosing not to question it. I mean, its a scenario the DM made, so maybe they raided a massive armory? OP did mention there's some sort of small rebellion going on, so they could have taken weapons from there. It may not make sense, but since the party is in that situation, the question does stand, why not shoot her till she flees or dies. Since she isn't immune to non-magical weapons, 2000 short bows are a threat.

[MaxWilson]

Just keep in mind that even attempting to stall Zariel is near suicidal for a Planetar or Solar, the cost to get them to agree to do so is going to be astronomical. An Empyrean would have a better chance of surviving.

The biggest issue, however, is speed. An Empyrean has absolutely no hope of keeping up, only being able to move 1/3 of her speed. Planetar do better in this regard but Zariel can teleport 120ft at will as a legendary action on top of her 150ft fly speed.

If you believe that she would rather kill the party than a few angels, they're not going to stop her from reaching the party.

Why would an Empyrean need to keep up with her flying? It has a 600' ranged attack that can deal 28d6 per round at +15 to hit. It's basically an anti-aircraft gun: dakka-dakka-dakka. [machine gun sounds] It won't kill Zariel very quickly ("only" 78 points of damage per round) unless the PCs contribute additional damage, but it makes it infeasible for her to just ignore the Empyrean and kill slaves.


I'm choosing not to question it. I mean, its a scenario the DM made, so maybe they raided a massive armory? OP did mention there's some sort of small rebellion going on, so they could have taken weapons from there. It may not make sense, but since the party is in that situation, the question does stand, why not shoot her till she flees or dies. Since she isn't immune to non-magical weapons, 2000 short bows are a threat.

The shortbow wielders aren't necessarily any good with those shortbows. 1000 shortbows at disadvantage for long range, if the wielders are Dex 10 and non-proficient in shortbows (which seems reasonable for slaves), is only 8.1 DPR. At short range there's no disadvantage so it's 162.50 DPR, but with legendary action teleportation she has no reason to ever stay at short range for extended periods. Also getting 1000 shortbows all within short range (80') requires you to bunch up in Fireball formation: you have to fill every square within 80' and have another 200 shortbow wielders doing the long-range goblin conga on top of that (move 10' from 90' to 80, shoot, then move back to 90' so someone else can enter short range). Under those conditions Zariel will kill the maximum number of ex-slaves with every Fireball: 50 slaves with every cast. Between that and her extreme mobility and regeneration, attempting to get everyone within 80' of her so you can kill her with shortbows seems like an exercise in futility that's just going to get a lot of people killed along the way.

If on the other hand those shortbow wielders are all about as good with their shortbows as skeletons are (Dex 14 and proficient), then even with disadvantage for long range they'll do about 100 points of damage to her per round, at up to 320'. She could still play the game of teleporting in and out with her legendary actions, chucking Fireballs with her actions, but it would be riskier for her, and the PCs might be able to pull something off that kills her or at least keeps her at bay long enough to escape.

Without more details from the DM about the shortbow troop stats, it's really too hard to say what would happen in a fight. Small +1s make a big difference.

[Temperjoke]

There is a simple thing that could happen that could distract/sidetrack Zariel enough to let them escape. A major demonic incursion from the Abyss. That would take higher priority than a paltry (relatively speaking) number of slaves. For that matter, such an incursion could be initiated by some Yugoloths who were angry with Zariel for failed payment. (For what it's worth, such a thing is actually the most ludicrous part, that a devil would fail to meet a term in a contract)

An incursion would explain a lot of things regarding the whole situation. Why she wouldn't go full out against them, where her army is, why she would leave before finishing them off. Zariel hates demons almost more than anything else.

[sithlordnergal]

The shortbow wielders aren't necessarily any good with those shortbows. 1000 shortbows at disadvantage for long range, if the wielders are Dex 10 and non-proficient in shortbows (which seems reasonable for slaves), is only 8.1 DPR. At short range there's no disadvantage so it's 162.50 DPR, but with legendary action teleportation she has no reason to ever stay at short range for extended periods. Also getting 1000 shortbows all within short range (80') requires you to bunch up in Fireball formation: you have to fill every square within 80' and have another 200 shortbow wielders doing the long-range goblin conga on top of that (move 10' from 90' to 80, shoot, then move back to 90' so someone else can enter short range). Under those conditions Zariel will kill the maximum number of ex-slaves with every Fireball: 50 slaves with every cast. Between that and her extreme mobility and regeneration, attempting to get everyone within 80' of her so you can kill her with shortbows seems like an exercise in futility that's just going to get a lot of people killed along the way.

If on the other hand those shortbow wielders are all about as good with their shortbows as skeletons are (Dex 14 and proficient), then even with disadvantage for long range they'll do about 100 points of damage to her per round, at up to 320'. She could still play the game of teleporting in and out with her legendary actions, chucking Fireballs with her actions, but it would be riskier for her, and the PCs might be able to pull something off that kills her or at least keeps her at bay long enough to escape.

Without more details from the DM about the shortbow troop stats, it's really too hard to say what would happen in a fight. Small +1s make a big difference.

Might I ask where you're getting the low numbers? Is that a flat 162, or 162d6? Cause that would change a few things. =o If its 162 flat damage, then that'd mean out of 1,333 attack rolls, which is 1/3 of the 4000 strong army, only 8 hit...which seems a bit off to me. Then again, I'm better at calculus, not stats so my math may be off.

EDIT: Also, considering they are an army of 4,000 strong, and are running to a cave, I am basing my assumptions on the idea that they are in a large enough space to fit this army. Things do change depending on area and spacing...but seeing as that is an unknown variable I left it out of my calculations.

EDIT EDIT: Ok, I redid my math using some more accurate calculations. Assuming there are peasants with their standard +2 to attack, they need to roll a 19 or 20 to hit Zariel. Meaning they have a .1 chance of hitting her. Out of 1,333, around 133 should hit her. Taking the average damage of a shortbow, that should equal out to 466 without counting crits. So they'll do about 233 damage in a single round. Not as good as my previous equation, but still enough to make Zariel worry. Especially if someone cancels her healing with Chill Touch.

[MaxWilson]

Might I ask where you're getting the low numbers? Is that a flat 162, or 162d6?

It's low due to having only +0 to-hit and only d6/2 damage on a hit (Dex 10, no proficiency).

I computed the numbers using my DPR calculator here: https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle using the pattern "avg <number of rolls>.att <ac> <to-hit><a for advantage or d for disadvantage> <damage per attack>". It accounts for crits automatically.

For the Dex 10, non-proficient case, 1000 attacks with and without disadvantage against AC 21 is 162.5 or 8.1 DPR respectively:


avg 1000.att 21 +0 d6/2: 162.50
avg 1000.att 21 +0d d6/2: 8.10

If I bump it up to Dex 14 and proficient, then to-hit is +4 instead of +0 and damage is d6+2/2 instead of d6/2.


avg 1000.att 21 +4 d6+2/2: 587.50
avg 1000.att 21 +4d d6+2/2: 104.30


Cause that would change a few things. =o If its 162 flat damage, then that'd mean out of 1,333 attack rolls, which is 1/3 of the 4000 strong army, only 8 hit...which seems a bit off to me. Then again, I'm better at calculus, not stats so my math may be off.

I was assuming 1000 shortbows, not 1333, but with only +0 to hit and disadvantage, only 1 arrow in 400 will hit. With 1333 shortbows it would be avg 1333.att 21 +0d d6/2 which totals 10.80 DPR, still well within her ability to regenerate.

Play around with the formulas a bit, you'll see.


EDIT EDIT: Ok, I redid my math using some more accurate calculations. Assuming there are peasants with their standard +2 to attack, they need to roll a 19 or 20 to hit Zariel. Meaning they have a .1 chance of hitting her. Out of 1,333, around 133 should hit her. Taking the average damage of a shortbow, that should equal out to 466 without counting crits. So they'll do about 233 damage in a single round. Not as good as my previous equation, but still enough to make Zariel worry. Especially if someone cancels her healing with Chill Touch.

They have a .01 chance of hitting her, not .1. That would be 13 hits per round, not 133. Also, you have to round down: if you roll 3 damage, then halve for resistance, that's only 1 damage not 1.5. It's a pain to calculate the exact damage by hand, which is why I make the computer do it.

With resistance but +2 to hit:

avg 1333.att 21 +2d d6/2: 25.73 (this includes crits)

Without resistance:

avg 1333.att 21 +2d d6: 58.25

So in this case resistance cuts incoming damage by about 55%.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Why would an Empyrean need to keep up with her flying? It has a 600' ranged attack that can deal 28d6 per round at +15 to hit. It's basically an anti-aircraft gun: dakka-dakka-dakka. [machine gun sounds] It won't kill Zariel very quickly ("only" 78 points of damage per round) unless the PCs contribute additional damage, but it makes it infeasible for her to just ignore the Empyrean and kill slaves.
I did miss the Empyrean's ranged attack, but Zariel can move 660ft per round (150ft fly speed, action dash, 3x legendary action teleport 120ft each)

She closes the gap immediately. If the Empyrean is near the party/slaves she can attack them all at once, if it went ahead to stall her she actually can outrun the Empyrean's 600ft range.

Also worth noting that the Empyrean doesn't have movement as a Legendary Action, it really is too slow to deal with her.

[MaxWilson]

I did miss the Empyrean's ranged attack, but Zariel can move 660ft per round (150ft fly speed, action dash, 3x legendary action teleport 120ft each)

She closes the gap immediately.

If by "immediate" you mean "after the Empyrean's third or fourth shot," then yes.


If the Empyrean is near the party/slaves she can attack them all at once, if it went ahead to stall her she actually can outrun the Empyrean's 600ft range.

Taking another 70ish HP of damage on her way back out.


Also worth noting that the Empyrean doesn't have movement as a Legendary Action, it really is too slow to deal with her.

Think of it as an AA gun, and she's a bomber strafing. After every strafing run she has to spend some time regenerating, and the slave army gets a little bit closer to freedom. If it were just the Empyrean she could definitely win eventually, but the party is a wild card here, and there's also the shortbow army to consider, and if she gets hit with e.g. Otto's Irresistable Dance all of her HP could evaporate pretty quick, so once the Empyrean shows up it's plausible that she might play it cautiously. Or not. I'm not that familiar with her personality, and it's DM-specific anyway. But with the Empyrean in the picture there's a good chance the party can just straight-up kill her.

[sithlordnergal]

Ah, then yeah my math was way off XD

[ProsecutorGodot]

If by "immediate" you mean "after the Empyrean's third or fourth shot," then yes.



Taking another 70ish HP of damage on her way back out.



Think of it as an AA gun, and she's a bomber strafing. After every strafing run she has to spend some time regenerating, and the slave army gets a little bit closer to freedom. If it were just the Empyrean she could definitely win eventually, but the party is a wild card here, and there's also the shortbow army to consider, and if she gets hit with e.g. Otto's Irresistable Dance all of her HP could evaporate pretty quick, so once the Empyrean shows up it's plausible that she might play it cautiously. Or not. I'm not that familiar with her personality, and it's DM-specific anyway. But with the Empyrean in the picture there's a good chance the party can just straight-up kill her.
We're assuming whatever God they're asking likes them enough to send their own child to a potential death.

Since we know the dimensions of the portal as well, Zariel is capable of covering it with Blade Wall. The party may be likely to survive but I'd be shocked if even 400 of the 4000 slaves survived.

As far as her personality, she was so eager to fight that she ran into Avernus with an army of mortals against the councils wishes, getting all of them killed and wad captured and converted into an Archdevil.

Thousands of lives is probably an acceptable price for the chance to kill Zariel, but it's going to be a bloodbath even in the best case scenario.

EDIT: She's also immune to charms so irresistible dance fails.

Don't forget that there are 4000 people (meaning absolute minimum of 4000 square feet of the battlefield covered in slaves) the Empyrean could be station directly in the middle and only protect a fraction of the slaves. The size of this encounter is immense and Zariel has the advantage.

EDIT EDIT: She also has at will invisibility, the Empyrean only has true sight out to 120ft. She could just allow a few slaves to escape and appear out of invisibility close to the portal. Her teleportation isn't even a spell so it can be maintained as she goes directly to the portal.

[Unoriginal]

You *could* say that Zariel wanted Titivillus dead and that the PCs killing him is enough to put her in a good mood.

[Marcelinari]

I think the trick to this is that Zariel can’t be allowed to be hell-bent on stopping the PCs and the slaves. Otherwise, there’s no way a single one of them will escape.

I think celestial intercession will be a must. Not only will they need a powerful ally for Zariel to focus on, there needs to feel like something is at stake. So I propose the following:

A solar is sent to intercede on the party’s behalf. After a few rounds of combat, just before the solar dies, it offers to bargain with Zariel. In exchange for letting the escapees go free, it swears fealty to Zariel, and joins the forces of hell. Alternatively or in addition, the solar/Zariel proclaims that in order to provide a large enough distraction, the Heavens have been forced to throw a punch in the Blood War - they have conspired with the demons to allow an unexpected invasion of Avernus’ heartland, near Zariel’s stronghold. There could be a bit of banter, Zariel accusing the heavens of the hypocrisy she always knew they practiced, but ultimately, she can’t focus entirely on slaughtering these upstart slaves and do-gooders.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, no, there's no way that the Upper Planes would do that. Especially not to save the skin of a bunch of adventurers.

Since Titivillus is dead, you could say that Dispater is having a breakdown and has started tearing up his own layer, requiring Zariel to intervene, maybe.

[Marcelinari]

You say ‘there’s no way’, but the Upper Realms are not a unified hivemind, and the lives and souls of 4000 slaves of hell do not weigh lightly upon the consciousness of goodly people. At no point did I say that the forces of heaven commit more than a single Solar to the fight, only that they provide overt aid (possibly a divine Gate, or other means of conveyance) to the forces of the abyss and/or allow a solar to sacrifice its Grace for the sake of these souls.

If that’s not enough, then we can fall back on the mystery of uneven expectations. The forces of good would never take part in the Blood War, would never allow a solar to fall from grace just for the sake of a few thousand mortals... but they did. Why? Is one of these PCs or slaves more important than we know? Does some prophecy predict the role for a champion ‘from Infernys fled’ (Infernys/Avernus - some celestial scholar might make that leap of assumption)? Or perhaps one of the PCs has a more personal connection with their god than anyone ever really realized?

Suffice it to say, ‘there’s no way’ is generally an uninteresting answer. Also, you’re not the DM, and the DM can justify a multitude of things.

[Unoriginal]

You say ‘there’s no way’, but the Upper Realms are not a unified hivemind, and the lives and souls of 4000 slaves of hell do not weigh lightly upon the consciousness of goodly people.

It doesn't weight more heavily than the billions of other souls that are also condemned to Hell. And it certainly doesn't weight more heavily than the consequences intervening in the Blood War by opposing Zariel directly would have.



At no point did I say that the forces of heaven commit more than a single Solar to the fight, only that they provide overt aid (possibly a divine Gate, or other means of conveyance) to the forces of the abyss and/or allow a solar to sacrifice its Grace for the sake of these souls.

And then they suffer from all the hundreds of consequences from this act, just like that? When they never judged good to do so before?



If that’s not enough, then we can fall back on the mystery of uneven expectations. The forces of good would never take part in the Blood War, would never allow a solar to fall from grace just for the sake of a few thousand mortals... but they did. Why? Is one of these PCs or slaves more important than we know? Does some prophecy predict the role for a champion ‘from Infernys fled’ (Infernys/Avernus - some celestial scholar might make that leap of assumption)? Or perhaps one of the PCs has a more personal connection with their god than anyone ever really realized?

"Ah, but you see, we saved them because they're Important" is an insulting portrayal of the good guys and of all the damned souls in hell.



Suffice it to say, ‘there’s no way’ is generally an uninteresting answer. Also, you’re not the DM, and the DM can justify a multitude of things.

Not respecting the lore is what I consider an uninteresting answer. Actions have consequences.

If the DM wants to change the lore, he's free to do so, but then he can also just as easily make it so it's not Zariel who's intervening.

I and others have provided several ideas to get out of this situation without making the forces of heavens and hell into a sinister joke.

[loki_ragnarock]

Hmm...

I don't think that Zariel is so free of enemies that resorting to the upper planes is even necessary. She's the head of a bureaucracy that, because it's composed of devils, basically exists to undermine her and advance themselves. I mean, she's high enough up the totem pole that undermining her isn't going to actually advance most of them...


… but who here remembers Bel? The guy who used to be top of the totem pole? Master defensive strategist responsible for holding the forces of the Abyss back for an age uncounted by time?


With the theme of Hell being largely disfunctional, toxic bureaucracy that is ultimately self destructive and the additional thematic entry of an unfathomably deep strategic underling whose entire legend is digging in and waiting for the opportune moment to strike, I think you have everything you need.


Missing payment that violates and agreement? An archedevil surely couldn't do that... unless she was undermined by someone intent on usurping her power, subtly influencing events until they unravel just so to distract her from the upcoming crushing defeat by abyssal forces reinforced by angry 'loths at a fortress that has been slowly bleeding proper equipment for centuries.


Have her show up and menace the party, but ultimately 4,000 slaves is small potatoes in the stakes of Hell. She'll remember the outrage, and the people she thinks are responsible for it.


The answer for dealing with reasons for people to survive trips to Hell usually involve the complications of Hell itself. You don't have to look much further than that. No need for a crazy summon, or even a direct conflict if you package it right.

[Marcelinari]

Of course actions have consequences. The PCs freeing a horde of 4000 slaves from hell must have consequences - some of the slaves die, and, if my suggestion is followed, then a solar falls from grace and the Upper Realms bear the rightful retaliation of the Dukes of Hell. If those aren’t consequences, then I suspect we are talking past each other.

But covering the escape of powerful goodly heroes and 4000 escaped hell-slaves is not the same as freeing them directly. It’s possible - probable, even - that the forces of Good are only willing to intervene due to the scale of the jailbreak, and the fact that the bulk of the work is already done.

I think I see the crux of where we differ, though if I am incorrect please forgive me for making a bold assumption. You appear to be theorycrafting for the setting, and proposing options that only utilize the established canon. I am trying to problem-solve for a table, and am thus making the assumption that the PCs are important (narratively speaking) and that their goals should be achievable.

This makes me see your proposals as unsatisfying, and you see my proposals as uninspired.

I would like to once again apologise if I have misinterpreted our respective positions.

[Unoriginal]

Of course actions have consequences. The PCs freeing a horde of 4000 slaves from hell must have consequences - some of the slaves die, and, if my suggestion is followed, then a solar falls from grace and the Upper Realms bear the rightful retaliation of the Dukes of Hell. If those aren’t consequences, then I suspect we are talking past each other.

The thing is, you are assuming that freeing the slaves is a given. What about the consequences for trying to escape the Nine Hells, for the slaves and PCs?


It’s possible - probable, even - that the forces of Good are only willing to intervene due to the scale of the jailbreak, and the fact that the bulk of the work is already done.

The scale of the jailbreak is an insignificant speck of dust in a tempest, since we're talking about whole Planes of existence.



I think I see the crux of where we differ, though if I am incorrect please forgive me for making a bold assumption. You appear to be theorycrafting for the setting, and proposing options that only utilize the established canon. I am trying to problem-solve for a table, and am thus making the assumption that the PCs are important (narratively speaking) and that their goals should be achievable.

You're probably correct in that assumption. I am absolutely against the idea that PCs should have plot armor or that their goals should always be achievable just because they're PCs. And narrative importance is only relative: a tiny bunch of mortals may be important in their home world, but against the Nine Hells? No.

[loki_ragnarock]

"Your impudence shall be crushed, insects! Tremble before the might of Zariel!"

The portal - the way home to the pleasant fields and forests of your home land, the path away from the nightmare of heat and blood and deathly decay and war that's surrounded you for so long, salvation itself - is suddenly blocked by a wall of swirling razors dozens of meters high and long. A wall as effective at cutting off escape as it is the limbs of those who have strayed too close. And you can feel it as a weight in the air; the collective despair of 4,000 souls who know that it's too late now. One of these souls ineffectually fires an arrow from his short bow that smolders to ash long before reaching its target, a last act of defiance that only serves to cement the futility of it all when he and dozens around him are instantly consumed in a conflagration that seems to come from the ground of Hell itself. Burning with such intensity as to obliterate flesh and melt their bones to a calcium slag as panic grips the host of people who know their time has come.
And Zariel smiles, for your quest has failed, and your lives are forfeit.

Suddenly, an imp appears at her side, whispering something into her ear. You overhear something about "breach" and "Demogorgan" and "probably an Ultraloth" and see her smile slowly turn into a snarl. She snatches the imp and - as she twists its body apart - she glares at you with a baleful eye that makes your soul wither. You, the ringleaders of this little embarrassment.

"It seems I have a pressing engagement with The Prince of Demons. Anticipate my return and my wrath in your very near future."
And with that she is gone. Vanished from view.

The wall of razors, however, has remained. Be it some aspect of this layer of Hell responding to her will, or some spell of power beyond that of mere mortals, it persists. A barrier of blades that keeps you from home. But before long, another imp appears. It smiles at you, a creature that inherently doesn't understand what smiles are for, and hands you a scroll before disappearing. Upon opening it, you see that it is a letter.

"Martial code e17g00004, subsection 667, subheading A7, paragraph 4 reads that blade barriers erected by an Archduke in the first layer of Hell will persist in perpetuity or until the Archduke wishes its expiration, whichever comes first. Excepting the 9th Tuesday in the month as determined by the Actealian Calander, whereupon it shall only persist as a real effect for a period no longer than 3 minutes and become illusory thereafter in perpetuity, until an Archduke wishes its expiration, or until some creature comes into contact with it, in which case the illusion is dispelled.
I know this because I wrote that part of the code. You have been very useful mortals, and I should like to thank you. An Archduke always has so many things vying for attention at any given moment, and when forced to choose between avenging the death of a beloved daughter of Hell or fail in the face of a Demon Prince, you must simply choose which face to save. I should know, and hopefully soon I will know again.
Regardless, she has made her choice. It just also happens to be the case that today is the rare 9th Tuesday in the month. I'd wait a minute, but probably no longer than that. I'd also make sure the ink this was written in was derived of a specific Styx wash so that the memory of your reading it is obliterated from you mind shortly after doing so, and further enchant the parchment so that it flared out of existence shortly after finishing.
With Warmest Regards,
-Bel"

BAM! No body (important) dies!

EDIT
"PS, She's probably still going to come for you, as getting away cements her humiliation. I'd prepare for that, were I you."

[MarkVIIIMarc]

"Your impudence shall be crushed, insects! Tremble before the might of Zariel!"

The portal - the way home to the pleasant fields and forests of your home land, the path away from the nightmare of heat and blood and deathly decay and war that's surrounded you for so long, salvation itself - is suddenly blocked by a wall of swirling razors dozens of meters high and long. A wall as effective at cutting off escape as it is the limbs of those who have strayed too close. And you can feel it as a weight in the air; the collective despair of 4,000 souls who know that it's too late now. One of these souls ineffectually fires an arrow from his short bow that smolders to ash long before reaching its target, a last act of defiance that only serves to cement the futility of it all when he and dozens around him are instantly consumed in a conflagration that seems to come from the ground of Hell itself. Burning with such intensity as to obliterate flesh and melt their bones to a calcium slag as panic grips the host of people who know their time has come.
And Zariel smiles, for your quest has failed, and your lives are forfeit.

Suddenly, an imp appears at her side, whispering something into her ear. You overhear something about "breach" and "Demogorgan" and "probably an Ultraloth" and see her smile slowly turn into a snarl. She snatches the imp and - as she twists its body apart - she glares at you with a baleful eye that makes your soul wither. You, the ringleaders of this little embarrassment.

"It seems I have a pressing engagement with The Prince of Demons. Anticipate my return and my wrath in your very near future."
And with that she is gone. Vanished from view.

The wall of razors, however, has remained. Be it some aspect of this layer of Hell responding to her will, or some spell of power beyond that of mere mortals, it persists. A barrier of blades that keeps you from home. But before long, another imp appears. It smiles at you, a creature that inherently doesn't understand what smiles are for, and hands you a scroll before disappearing. Upon opening it, you see that it is a letter.

"Martial code e17g00004, subsection 667, subheading A7, paragraph 4 reads that blade barriers erected by an Archduke in the first layer of Hell will persist in perpetuity or until the Archduke wishes its expiration, whichever comes first. Excepting the 9th Tuesday in the month as determined by the Actealian Calander, whereupon it shall only persist as a real effect for a period no longer than 3 minutes and become illusory thereafter in perpetuity, until an Archduke wishes its expiration, or until some creature comes into contact with it, in which case the illusion is dispelled.
I know this because I wrote that part of the code. You have been very useful mortals, and I should like to thank you. An Archduke always has so many things vying for attention at any given moment, and when forced to choose between avenging the death of a beloved daughter of Hell or fail in the face of a Demon Prince, you must simply choose which face to save. I should know, and hopefully soon I will know again.
Regardless, she has made her choice. It just also happens to be the case that today is the rare 9th Tuesday in the month. I'd wait a minute, but probably no longer than that. I'd also make sure the ink this was written in was derived of a specific Styx wash so that the memory of your reading it is obliterated from you mind shortly after doing so, and further enchant the parchment so that it flared out of existence shortly after finishing.
With Warmest Regards,
-Bel"

BAM! No body (important) dies!

EDIT
"PS, She's probably still going to come for you, as getting away cements her humiliation. I'd prepare for that, were I you."

THAT is some sweet writing there. I may borrow good portions of it.

My modifications will be to make whatever happens the PC's fault. Now to think about what they may negotiate.....

[Unoriginal]

-Bel"

BAM! No body (important) dies!


And then Bel is executed for high treason against the Nine Hells since he has written this section of the code. Though this actually would be a good thing.

[loki_ragnarock]

And then Bel is executed for high treason against the Nine Hells since he has written this section of the code. Though this actually would be a good thing.

Would he? The new Archduke of the first layer of Baator is of course free to write additional addendums to the military code when they assume the office. As he wrote that portion of the code while he was still Archduke, and the present Archduke was too focused on "zeal" and "making her underlings fight with a berserker fury" or some such to see to her duties in amending the code, no treason could possibly have happened. He pursued his legal duties while Archduke, and continues to pursue them to this day. If anything, it underlines how the present Archduke of the first layer of Baator has been negligent in her all too pressing duties.

But who can fault her for that? She isn't really a devil, after all. We need not list all the ways she has failed us, of late.

Then again, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Whatever set backs the denizens of Baator might suffer as a result of that ignorance must fall upon the head of the one responsible; the Archduke herself.


Look, man, I might not be able to personally pull it off, but I bet Bel - if exposed - could afford a hell of a lawyer. And as we all know, those who can afford a hell of a lawyer generally get away with it. That's just the sort of perverse twisting of the notions of justice that work with the themes of hell; Zariel was just trying to do her best and ultimately gets punished by some legal jetsam biting her in the back.

Heck, the very trial you envision might even be how he gets his seat back.

Much more likely is that Zariel simply kills him without explanation or a trial, an act so clearly chaotic that the only place left for her is the Abyss, fully completing her story arc of irredeemable corruption. (As Asmodeus wished it to be from the very beginning, of course. You gots to make these examples poignant.)

It depends on how much you want to play with the competing themes between Bel and Zariel; patience vs impetuousness. I'd not underestimate the devil that so thoroughly anticipated his enemy that he could strategize around the unpredictability of demons, nor the general who devised plans that survived first contact with such an enemy for millennia beyond counting.

Zariel might be personally powerful, but she's a babe fresh from the womb when it comes to this devil stuff. Thinking of her as a legend, she's either going to usurp Asmodeus entirely, and thus fall from grace even more totally, or eventually be cast into the Abyss, thus falling from grace even more totally.


When it happens can absolutely be narratively convenient, of course.

EDIT
I seem to have gotten my timelines off, disregard.

[Unoriginal]

Executing a subordinate that displeased you without trial is not a chaotic act, or at least certainly not one that is Abyss-worthy.

Fellow Archduke Mephistopheles is known to do that routinely, at the slightest displeasure. And Asmodeus himself literally pummeled the Hag Countess all over a layer in a blind rage.

Also, Bel is no political genius. He got kicked out of his throne because he missed the point of the Blood War. and wanted devils to hole up in their own land.

[loki_ragnarock]

For the Asmodeus example, it's good to be the king.




So I wrote that, and my skin crawled when I read it in isolation. Which means that it's probably fits the theme. I am a bit squeamish about arguments that handwave away beating a woman to death, though, so my temperament might not be the best suited for it. Thus, this paragraph, where I try to put some emotional distance between myself and the above. Willikers.


For the Mephistopheles example, does his routine killing of subordinates include those in the protected class of devils that actually merit a trial? Not being a hell of a lawyer myself, I'd assume that any twisted system of justice would have tiered protections that extend to some and not to others. Bel, being a named devil who was Archduke of Avernus for at least 3 editions would surely qualify as the type that requires a trial, if only for nostalgia's sake. A distinction of the nobility vs the peasantry, if not royalty at this point? Or the difference between a slave and a poor freeman and an influential berger and nobility and royalty, only cut a half hundred more ways with more distinctions and exceptions that would baffle the sharp and beggar the imagination?


I suppose that would be the question; does Bel still qualify as a devil of a protected class? If not, I agree with your assessment. If so, a trial is required, and bypassing that trial wouldn't be the anti-thesis of a legal act; certainly nothing that an Archdevil could get away with without some degree of scrutiny.

I just happen to think being Archdevil of Avernus since second edition and Planescape qualifies him as a protected class. However, I'm no hell of a lawyer.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

There's no "protected class" in Hell. There's Asmodeus, and then there's everyone else.

[Unoriginal]

For the Mephistopheles example, does his routine killing of subordinates include those in the protected class of devils that actually merit a trial?

He kills any of his subordinates he wants. Presumably he does so more rarely with the higher ups because they wouldn't have reached this position without knowing to not piss him off, but that doesn't protect them if they happen to do it.



Not being a hell of a lawyer myself, I'd assume that any twisted system of justice would have tiered protections that extend to some and not to others. Bel, being a named devil who was Archduke of Avernus for at least 3 editions would surely qualify as the type that requires a trial, if only for nostalgia's sake. A distinction of the nobility vs the peasantry, if not royalty at this point? Or the difference between a slave and a poor freeman and an influential berger and nobility and royalty, only cut a half hundred more ways with more distinctions and exceptions that would baffle the sharp and beggar the imagination?


I suppose that would be the question; does Bel still qualify as a devil of a protected class?

Bel is not of a "protected class". The only reason he's still alive is because Asmodeus deemed him to still be useful, which wouldn't be the case anymore after that betrayal.

[NaughtyTiger]

A lot of the limitations to your way out (ie There's no way X would do that.." come from established lore in Forgotten Realms.

If the players got into this mess, then they may not actually no all the rules and lore associated with hell, zariel, etc.
You are the DM, you can change the lore for your universe.

Use any of the Dues Ex macina tools suggested.

[Unoriginal]

A lot of the limitations to your way out (ie There's no way X would do that.." come from established lore in Forgotten Realms.

Nope. Default 5e setting, as established by the Mordenkainen's and the MM.

[NaughtyTiger]

Nope. Default 5e setting, as established by the Mordenkainen's and the MM.

not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. i assume sarcastic, cuz we all know the DM trumps any book, history, or lore.

[Unoriginal]

not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. i assume sarcastic, cuz we all know the DM trumps any book, history, or lore.

I'm not sarcastic, I'm just saying that it's not FR lore, but default 5e lore.

Of course a DM can decide whatever they wish. But I think OP knows that already, and wasn't asking about it.

[OvisCaedo]

Well, I mean... How much time do you need to buy, exactly? Because there's technically a save-free way for a couple of casters to near-completely shut down Zariel for a while, but it's extremely dumb. I guess they'd also both need to get close enough, too, so who knows what she'll have done in the meantime.

...but, as her statblock is written, she'd have no way of escaping from a combination of Fog Cloud and Forcecage/wall of force until one of those spells ended. She has no listed means of dispelling magic, and her only teleport requires her to see the target location. So if she were trapped in either a fog-filled or fog-covered box, I think her options would be limited to casting blade barrier and wall of fire blindly. Which could certainly still kill a lot of people within range before they could get away? Particularly important for no concentrating caster to get hit.

of course, even if doing something like this bought enough time, you'd have REAL problems later after having pissed off an archdevil by stopping them with something this silly and frustrating. It's possible I also missed something? It's also already pretty metagamey for the party to think this WOULD work and no reason for them to know she CAN'T just dispel things or freely teleport. And she probably has minions who COULD break her out since it would only take a dispel on a fog cloud, or for wind to exist.

you could technically also kill her like this if you had three compatible casters and left a wall of light inside the cramped fog-covered box with her, but that's an unlikely scenario and also REALLY shouldn't be valid.

[loki_ragnarock]

There's no "protected class" in Hell. There's Asmodeus, and then there's everyone else.

While strictly true, there has to be some order to who can kill who with impunity or you may as well be Tanar'ri. Might is not what makes right in Hell; order and law make it so. Asmodeus on the tip top of the grand pyramid of order, the very progenitor or that which is correct, and no one would dare to, let alone conceive of, a plot that could do him any harm. And of course, as he is infallible he will deliver justice as he wishes. This is his prerogative as the sublime ruler of the Hell, the one true manifestation of order.

But.

There's everyone else. And we are still not Tanar'ri. Protection is a relative status; Mephistopheles can kill his underlings, but his underlings may not plot or act to kill him back without being in violation of the rules. Mephistopheles does not kill his underlings simply because he is their better in battle, but because it is his right under the law. Rights under the law must therefore vary, depending on the circumstances.
So which protections are then afforded Bel? Where does he fit in the hierarchy of Hell? If it makes you feel better, don't think of them as rights so much as enforceable privileges extended by Asmodeus' will to various subsets of underlings that can be revoked at any time at his will.


He kills any of his subordinates he wants. Presumably he does so more rarely with the higher ups because they wouldn't have reached this position without knowing to not piss him off, but that doesn't protect them if they happen to do it.
Which of these subordinates has he killed that:
1) Are significant named figures in the D&D cosmology?
2) Have Asmodeus' personal interest?

I am uncertain that the example is universal to all Devils, and further uncertain if the above would constrain Mephistopheles normal behaviors.
Actually, I'd go so far as to say number 2 means he probably wouldn't, and likely that Zariel might be even more constrained.



Bel is not of a "protected class". The only reason he's still alive is because Asmodeus deemed him to still be useful, which wouldn't be the case anymore after that betrayal.
Asmodeus deeming someone useful might be the very definition of a protected class in Hell.
Likewise, that "betrayal" may well be what Asmodeus wants to see; he is inscrutable, and trying to scrute him with such certainty seems folly. He's been okay with Bel betraying Zariel in the past. Elevating him to Archduke for his trouble, even. Curious, that.


All that said, I'd of course concede that Bel wouldn't sign his name to the page unless his inevitable betrayal was well under way. And likewise, any demonic incursion that posed any meaningful threat to Hell as a result of battle lines compromised by Zariel's unrestrained, aggressive expansion would be stopped by Bel and his heroism. He's not one to align himself with demons (Except that one time. Don't worry about it.) and the integrity and security of Hell is paramount.

[Torpin]

take a page from 3.5 and make it an aspect of Zariel and several minions, a small number of decetly powerful devils, im thinking a 3-5 horned devils and like 20 barded devils. this way you can deflate the power of zariel and still have long term consequences of having persoanlly pissed of an arch devil and the reason zariel isnt there is he is getting a new bung hole added courtesy of asmodeus who is personally amused at his failing

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Well, I mean... How much time do you need to buy, exactly? Because there's technically a save-free way for a couple of casters to near-completely shut down Zariel for a while, but it's extremely dumb. I guess they'd also both need to get close enough, too, so who knows what she'll have done in the meantime.

...but, as her statblock is written, she'd have no way of escaping from a combination of Fog Cloud and Forcecage/wall of force until one of those spells ended. She has no listed means of dispelling magic, and her only teleport requires her to see the target location. So if she were trapped in either a fog-filled or fog-covered box, I think her options would be limited to casting blade barrier and wall of fire blindly. Which could certainly still kill a lot of people within range before they could get away? Particularly important for no concentrating caster to get hit.

of course, even if doing something like this bought enough time, you'd have REAL problems later after having pissed off an archdevil by stopping them with something this silly and frustrating. It's possible I also missed something? It's also already pretty metagamey for the party to think this WOULD work and no reason for them to know she CAN'T just dispel things or freely teleport. And she probably has minions who COULD break her out since it would only take a dispel on a fog cloud, or for wind to exist.

you could technically also kill her like this if you had three compatible casters and left a wall of light inside the cramped fog-covered box with her, but that's an unlikely scenario and also REALLY shouldn't be valid.

Wow. That is imaginative. Almost requires metagaming knowledge but a couple of the PC's and three of their NPC's may know this.

Thanks for the insight.

[OvisCaedo]

Wow. That is imaginative. Almost requires metagaming knowledge but a couple of the PC's and three of their NPC's may know this.

Thanks for the insight.

It's very metagamey, yeah, but in a weird way. Originally my proposal of this stemmed kind of as a joke when I was trying to convince someone of how stupid fog cloud actually is, so I was trying to look through and find all of the things it completely shut down, or could help shut down, that it had absolutely no right to. I think it was also determined that a slightly upcast fog cloud could make it impossible to hit someone with Meteor Swarm because you could only make the meteors hit "points you can see" or something. The wording on it is pretty iffy, admittedly, because that one also says they plummet "to the ground", and brought up a whole issue of whether or not you can use the spell underground at all, or if you could airburst the meteors... pretty off topic though.

anyhow. the general point is that it's kind of metagamey when you get into using this kind of tactic against high level beings that SHOULD be very magical, but there are a hell of a lot of creatures that just have no answer at all to being trapped in a forcefield with a damaging spell, especially if there's fog on the in or outside of it, and in general fog cloud shuts down a hell of a lot of spellcasting, even against things that have Truesight.

there's also a whole side debate of whether or not you CAN actually cast spells that don't travel from you through wall of force, but that's kind of a whole other mess, so I was assuming the condition most favorable to the trapped fiend (able to blind-cast wall spells still). Forcecage as a box actually seems to say outright "no you can't cast spells through it", but is also a higher level spell that requires you to own a lot of ruby dust. (and also says nothing about not being able to continue concentrating on a spell that is inside where the box's area formed before the forcecage was cast, but... this is all super cheesy stuff.)

in some circumstances i'd say this kind of thing makes for good reason to change the statblocks of things of this level to at least HAVE access to basic dispell magic at the least, because it's kind of ridiculous for such high level rulers of hell or such to NOT be able to.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wow. That is imaginative. Almost requires metagaming knowledge but a couple of the PC's and three of their NPC's may know this.

Thanks for the insight.

You could avoid too much metagaming by making it a passive skillcheck (or active if your players ask to make some sort of check) use skills that the character has proficiency in or a flat intelligence if they don't have any you could reasonably use.

Just a few examples, passive perception to notice Zariel's eyes shifting to her target location. Arcana to connect sight requirement, advantage (which is +5 to passive checks) if they have the ability to cast a form of teleportation that doesn't require sight as they would know the difference. Religion/History to recall some obscure story about an Arcanoloth who supposedly tricked Zariel with a similar tactic.

The question here is what arbitrary number to set the DC at.

[Unoriginal]

Fog Cloud doesn't prevent you to see the fog, though, so Zariel would still have a valid teleport point.

[OvisCaedo]

Ah, and now I'm also remembering all of the messy implications of both the original rules on what "heavily obscured" means and the errata of it, both versions of which are utter nonsense when interpreted RAW. It went from "someone inside a heavily obscured area can't see but everyone else can see in perfectly" to "nobody can see anything inside the obscured area but can perfectly see anything outside of it from the inside OR opposite side of it".

Though I don't think either of those rules is quite what you're suggesting, either. It sounds more like you just mean that if you can see fog, teleporting into it must be valid. I feel like that's a whole other can of worms in terms of what counts as seeing a "point" or not if you can see the edge of something occupying a space... Not particularly a debate I'm interested in having, but maybe one that should be had.

edit: also not using "occupying" as a game term here because after glancing again at the wording on Zariel's teleport, it occurs to me that a space being "occupied" or not is its own issue that I have no idea if there's an actual hardline game definition for or not.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

You *could* say that Zariel wanted Titivillus dead and that the PCs killing him is enough to put her in a good mood.

This is honestly your best answer. There's who knows what maneuvering in the backend that could leave Zariel wanting Titivilus dead. Write something new if you don't like it.

Heck, maybe this prison and set of slaves was actually his somehow with a contract to have it stored on Zariel's land and oops, not her problem.

Titivilus was taking action to expand his master Dispater's reach into another layer of hell (On paper, in reality he was working with Zariel to slowly raise new forces to use in his own plans). Zariel cooperated due to... Something, Blackmail, future agreements, who knows.

Once Titivilus falls Zariel "uncovered" a horrible plot by the Archdevil to try and use her resources to overthrow Dispater. She arrived to see Titivilus dealt with and cast out his ill gotten resources.

Now Zariel hates and is an enemy of the PCs because they know what really happened and Dispater sees them as the hands that slew his minion.

[Unoriginal]

This is honestly your best answer. There's who knows what maneuvering in the backend that could leave Zariel wanting Titivilus dead. Write something new if you don't like it.

Heck, maybe this prison and set of slaves was actually his somehow with a contract to have it stored on Zariel's land and oops, not her problem.

Titivilus was taking action to expand his master Dispater's reach into another layer of hell (On paper, in reality he was working with Zariel to slowly raise new forces to use in his own plans). Zariel cooperated due to... Something, Blackmail, future agreements, who knows.

Once Titivilus falls Zariel "uncovered" a horrible plot by the Archdevil to try and use her resources to overthrow Dispater. She arrived to see Titivilus dealt with and cast out his ill gotten resources.

Now Zariel hates and is an enemy of the PCs because they know what really happened and Dispater sees them as the hands that slew his minion.

... why would she let the PCs go, then?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

... why would she let the PCs go, then?
Because them taken down, either alive or dead, could leave them in a place where others could question them. She doesn't know what they do or don't know about Titivilus' plans or her potential involvement in them. (The scenario given has her there alone for some reason, so no overwhelming forces to ensure they're taken alive, no guaruntee outside game mechanics she wouldn't kill them outright. We don't know their level, number, gear, etc to know exactly how this fight pairs down)

Letting them go allows her to follow up and have them killed off plane where their souls will definately not get stuck or drawn into Hell to be dealt with by other devils who could learn things. (this honestly depends on if dying on a lower plane can leave you trapped there similar to what happened to those Eladrin on the Abyss back in 3.x)

Honestly, if you want the full plot it'd take me longer than I really have here and I'm positive that my quick overview has plotholes, but it's something that can work, give the PCs some plausible reason for their non-death and develop plothooks for the future.

For point of reference my Zariel and Titivilus have a similar relationship. My campaign dealt with her fall being caused by a combination of Titivilus' machinations putting her in a position where she thought her glorious charge would work without any risk of failure (He left her convinced Bel was dealing with a massive incursion from Grazzt and that she could force her way past Avernus and into Dis to establish a foothold there) and would help her outshine Barachiel (I brought the 3.X Celestials back into my game) who was working with my PCs to thwart an unrelated plot of Titivilus that they didn't know Zariel was involved in until near the end.

So for me I've got an entire running backstory that'd easily fit into this scenario along with extra reasons she wouldn't want the PCs on Avernus including just the tiniest little bit of fear that they could take her out. (My party consists of level 18 and 19s, Fighter, Druid, Warlock, Bard, fairly high end magic gear including a Rod of Lordly Might and Mythcarver, etc There's a very solid chance she wouldn't walk out of a fight against my PCs if she fights them alone and outside her lair as the OP's scenario sets up)

For the OP, I don't know the full story of their campaign, but given details could probably write something better than my initial treatise.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Because them taken down, either alive or dead, could leave them in a place where others could question them. She doesn't know what they do or don't know about Titivilus' plans or her potential involvement in them.

Letting them go allows her to follow up and have them killed off plane where their souls will definately not get stuck or drawn into Hell to be dealt with by other devils who could learn things

If she kills them on her plane of hell, how does another demon even get a hold of their souls?

That's ignoring that Devils can't even take the PC's souls unless A) They're evil and would have ended up there in the afterlife or B) They sign a contract forfeiting their soul. No way that I'm aware of anyway, such Devils would risk their own doom.

Killing them, in fact, is one of the few ways to guarantee* they don't go around sharing secrets. Letting them leave would be absolutely insane if your goal is to keep them quiet, it gives them every concievable opportunity to spread that information. It's literally as simple as "Well, I'm shocked she let us go. We'll take a long rest and cast Planar Ally and ask "insert one of the other 8 lords here" to send literally anything intelligent so that we can relay this information."
*Assuming that if the PC's die there aren't dozens of NPC lined up to cast Speak with Dead on their corpse or that they're actually not evil, damning their soul to appear 10 feet to the left of their body where the Styx is

EDIT: Also, the assumption that Zariel would somehow be embroiled in a political mess is decidedly against her character. She's the least likely Archdevil to actually seek out to strike a deal with you that involves any sort of trickery, you'd be sought out on your strength alone. If you offend her, she'll kill you and might never even think of the consequences. She was literally so fed up with watching the Blood War that she (as an Angel at the time) decided instead to take part and became an Archdevil as a consequence. It doesn't seem like she regrets it much.

You could decide that your version of Zariel doesn't share these traits, but at that point you're not really using Zariel, you're using some lesser stand in.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

If she kills them on her plane of hell, how does another demon even get a hold of their souls?

That's ignoring that Devils can't even take the PC's souls unless A) They're evil and would have ended up there in the afterlife or B) They sign a contract forfeiting their soul. No way that I'm aware of anyway, such Devils would risk their own doom.

Killing them, in fact, is one of the few ways to guarantee* they don't go around sharing secrets. Letting them leave would be absolutely insane if your goal is to keep them quiet, it gives them every conceivable opportunity to spread that information. It's literally as simple as "Well, I'm shocked she let us go. We'll take a long rest and cast Planar Ally and ask "insert one of the other 8 lords here" to send literally anything intelligent so that we can relay this information."
*Assuming that if the PC's die there aren't dozens of NPC lined up to cast Speak with Dead on their corpse or that they're actually not evil, damning their soul to appear 10 feet to the left of their body where the Styx is

Depends on how you're running, I remember something about mortals killed in bad places can end up stuck there and no guarantee she gets to them first. If you're not using that logic then we spin a different reason for her to let them go. Maybe there really is a Tanar'ri incursion that draws her away. Maybe the reason she's "alone" is that it's a simulacrum or other proxy because she was otherwise occupied and didn't go herself (We're talking about 4000 run of the mill souls. Not exactly a big deal) Maybe the party can actually take Zariel in the weird position the OP has placed her (No Lair, No backup, a part of 4 level 17+ characters could possibly take her, not easy, but possible)

Again, I'm just spitballing possible answers based on the limited story info we have. If OP wants to provide party composition, some backstory on his game, etc, I'd be happy to try and cater more to the exact scenario. As mentioned, there's additional reason this layout could work in my world, and I'm aware there's plotholes in a generic setup. :-)

As for spreading the information. We're assuming the party understand Infernal Politics, wants to dive in deeper, wants to get on the radar of another Layer's lord when they're already dealing with one. That seems a bit of a stretch unless the party has a FiendLock or other connection to Baator in the first place.

PS: Thank you to everyone who is pointing out plotholes, my reasons for them existing aside, forcing me to try and think on the fly to answer them can only benefit my DMing. :-)

[Jcp1195]

Two words: Peasant Railgun.

[JackPhoenix]

Two words: Peasant Railgun.

You mean that thing that switched between in-game physics and real-world physics, ignoring one or the other as it was convenient? The one that never actually worked as anything other than means to transport an object an arbitrary distance in one turn?

[Unoriginal]

You mean that thing that switched between in-game physics and real-world physics, ignoring one or the other as it was convenient? The one that never actually worked as anything other than means to transport an object an arbitrary distance in one turn?

And would also require switching editions.

[Legendairy]

I apologize in advance, I didn’t read through the entirety of this thread. But here is a possibility (if it’s been said I’m sorry!)

Have the army hear a massive horn that sounds like demonic screeching and an actual battle horn, the demons are invading her layer, she gives an evil glance at the party and teleports leader her army against the invading force instead of the small ragtag group. Someone looking out for the party orchestrated a coup to make a diversion.

She teleports swearing that their souls will be hers, a large explosion in front of them, when the smoke clears there is Bel and some other greater devils ready for the fight!

I think Zariel would rather stop an invading force than keep the 4000 or so ragtag slaves.

I’m in a hurry sorry for not much detail or anything and this is just the chassis you could maybe use.

[MaxWilson]

Have the army hear a massive horn that sounds like demonic screeching and an actual battle horn, the demons are invading her layer, she gives an evil glance at the party and teleports leader her army against the invading force instead of the small ragtag group. Someone looking out for the party orchestrated a coup to make a diversion.

Make sure she leaves them with something to remember her by, like a Blade Barrier, to prevent this from feeling cheap and anticlimactic.

[JackPhoenix]

And would also require switching editions.

Well, it still works mostly the same way: arbitrary number of commoners Readying object interaction to pass the object.

The final commoner in line is still throwing the thing as an improvised ranged weapon at +0 for astounding 1d4 damage.