What comes after demilich?

[Stevesciguy]

Title says it all.

I've seen some say that lichdom is a means to an end - that end being immortality.

Demiliches are liches who've discovered the secret of soul gems, and have forsaken most of a physical body for more powerful magic.

So, for a person who's goal is to become a "higher" form of undead, what comes next? Do you lose your body entirely and just become a being of negative energy? Do you join up with other demiliches and become one big demilich-skeleton? Do you become a swarm of skulls with your consciousness spread across them?

The question came up in a game I'm playing where my character will eventually ascend to demilich status. A bit premature, but found myself wondering "what's next?" so I thought I'd see what the rest of the playground thinks

[Karl Aegis]

The third party book Immortals Handbook has the Akalich. Your bones have eroded to dust and you fly around as an incorporeal shadow-like being trapping gods in your soul gems for extra lives.

[Particle_Man]

The lich Vecna became a god.

[Zaq]

The 2e Ravenloft book “Van Richten’s Guide to Liches” describes it as basically a twisted form of enlightenment or a step towards “some unknown state of transcendence.” They basically lose their corporeal forms altogether and acquire a complete and total disregard for the realm of mortals. They pretty much move on in some unfathomable way.

[Ellrin]

Presumably, if you continue with the same pattern, you would get a quarterlich.

[OgresAreCute]

Presumably, if you continue with the same pattern, you would get a quarterlich.

I imagine it just looks like a floating jawbone.

[hamishspence]

It's kind of odd that demiliches tend to be more powerful than regular liches, but demigods tend to be less powerful than regular gods.

[ezekielraiden]

It's kind of odd that demiliches tend to be more powerful than regular liches, but demigods tend to be less powerful than regular gods.

It's because it's a double formation. Demigod + lich = demilich.

As for where they go, plenty of options. A fun one just occurred to me: Vecna. No, they don't "merge" with Vecna or whatever. There can only be one "beyond demilich," and that being holds the name-title Vecna. You can't kill Vecna any more than you can kill necromancy--there's always at least one demilich just waiting for the universe to no longer have its Vecna. And then a new one rises to take the old one's place. Ever wondered why it seems like there must be more than one Hand or Eye of Vecna? Now you know.

[lord_khaine]

As for where they go, plenty of options. A fun one just occurred to me: Vecna. No, they don't "merge" with Vecna or whatever. There can only be one "beyond demilich," and that being holds the name-title Vecna. You can't kill Vecna any more than you can kill necromancy--there's always at least one demilich just waiting for the universe to no longer have its Vecna. And then a new one rises to take the old one's place. Ever wondered why it seems like there must be more than one Hand or Eye of Vecna? Now you know.

I think thats a hilariously good explanation for how many hands and eyes Vecna seems to have :P

[noob]

afterwards the demilich decides one day to burry itself underground long enough to become a worms that walk and therefore be alive again then it kills itself with an epic spell that animates it as a ghost thus making it a lich demilich worms that walks ghost.
Also somewhere on the road it might become a paragon or replace its heart with a balor or whatever because it gave up on gaining extra levels a long time ago.
Or during the worms that walks period it might use a spell to count as humanoid to contract varied kinds of lycanthropy to later have hit dice to retrain into more levels into prcs.
With those levels it can take loremaster to gain the humanoid heritage feat to then be able to stack all the kinds of undeath that favors it faster.

[DrMotives]

The other really famous demilich is Acerak, who is now a vestige. So, I guess that's the other path.

[Malphegor]

Demiliches kinda follow, in my mind, the Star Trek trope of as you attain more power as a being your physical form gets shed and irrelevant to your capabilities. You slowly stop intervening in mortal affairs, you start looking onwards at greater things that would be increasingly incomprehensible to a mere human. You elevate from being of flesh to a creature of concept.

So presumably the next stage is something that’s akin to a meddling god or some form of pure energy being (albeit focused on necromancy I suppose).

NecQ-mancer?

Sort of a Maslow’s hierarchy thing- the ultralich would be taking out another layer of the bottom layers of the pyramid.

[noob]

Demiliches kinda follow, in my mind, the Star Trek trope of as you attain more power as a being your physical form gets shed and irrelevant to your capabilities. You slowly stop intervening in mortal affairs, you start looking onwards at greater things that would be increasingly incomprehensible to a mere human. You elevate from being of flesh to a creature of concept.

So presumably the next stage is something that’s akin to a meddling god or some form of pure energy being (albeit focused on necromancy I suppose).

NecQ-mancer?

Sort of a Maslow’s hierarchy thing- the ultralich would be taking out another layer of the bottom layers of the pyramid.

That is quite false.
There is a demilich that is described as pretending to be a regular skull and which watches people thinking it is a regular skull for fun and it never does anything else.
Essentially demiliches are crazier and more powerful liches not more transcendental liches.
Acearak had a very simple objective: become as powerful as possible and it is quite understandable by most humans and even possibly by animals.

[BowStreetRunner]

Q: What comes after demilich?
A: Whatever it wants.

akalich...god...transcendent being...vestige...

When you become this powerful, why should you be railroaded into a single option? Just as mortals have many options to achieve immortality - including becoming a lich - I would imagine that a lich or demilich would have lots of options available to them as well. Demilich might be some sort of default for liches that don't find some other way to ascend to more power first. Whether an akalich would then be the default after that or something else entirely, I think that most liches - being rational individuals possessing of significant powers to control their own destiny - would map out their own path.

[Stevesciguy]

Q: What comes after demilich?
A: Whatever it wants.

akalich...god...transcendent being...vestige...

When you become this powerful, why should you be railroaded into a single option? Just as mortals have many options to achieve immortality - including becoming a lich - I would imagine that a lich or demilich would have lots of options available to them as well. Demilich might be some sort of default for liches that don't find some other way to ascend to more power first. Whether an akalich would then be the default after that or something else entirely, I think that most liches - being rational individuals possessing of significant powers to control their own destiny - would map out their own path.

We currently fall into the category of "transcendent being". The premise of the campaign is that we have become "Ascendants", beings that can achieve power rivaling gods without the need for worship. The gods are so terrified of us that at one point (way before we ascended) they hunted Ascendants to near extinction. The remaining Ascendants created a sort of order and banded together pretty much just for safety.

So the progression of my character's undeath is sort of... perpendicular?.. to that status. He wants to become a more perfect form of undeath, so lich->demilich->?

I guess I'm mostly asking what is a higher form of undeath than a demilich? Does that even have any meaning at this point?

I think the akalich concept is cool, but I'm not super sure how usable that template is:smalltongue:

I like the discussion so far. And the explanation for all those Hands of Vecna.

[The Glyphstone]

One animated skeleton made from 206 demiliches working together. Theyre super rare to nonexistent because demiliches dont get along.

[noob]

We currently fall into the category of "transcendent being". The premise of the campaign is that we have become "Ascendants", beings that can achieve power rivaling gods without the need for worship. The gods are so terrified of us that at one point (way before we ascended) they hunted Ascendants to near extinction. The remaining Ascendants created a sort of order and banded together pretty much just for safety.

So the progression of my character's undeath is sort of... perpendicular?.. to that status. He wants to become a more perfect form of undeath, so lich->demilich->?

I guess I'm mostly asking what is a higher form of undeath than a demilich? Does that even have any meaning at this point?

I think the akalich concept is cool, but I'm not super sure how usable that template is:smalltongue:

I like the discussion so far. And the explanation for all those Hands of Vecna.

As I said you can become a worms that walks and get extra forms of undeath thus further increasing your characteristics(and also contract varied forms of lycanthropy to gain hit dice to retrain into class levels).
Heck since stacking the same template is not forbidden a demilich can become a demilich over and over to increase its mental stats of 10 at each time.

[Rater202]

Honestly, a few applications of the Evolved Undead Template and/or other Templates that can be applied to Undead without changing the Type would be the go too at this point for me.

[Flickerdart]

I think thats a hilariously good explanation for how many hands and eyes Vecna seems to have :P

Vecna was a hecatoncheires.

[Zaq]

Vecna was a hecatoncheires.

And/or a beholder.

[Falontani]

Honestly a lich is a crazy powerful mage with many lifetimes with which to study.
A demilich is a lich who has ascended to further power at a cost of what was left of their mortality.
Something further would probably have to lose what is left of their sanity. So an old one would be the next feasible step. A great old one is something so crazy powerful that many gods fear these creatures, and so removed from mortality and sanity, that no one can predict them.

Or just turn into a humanoid looking form again and be the uber powerful senile npc that can not die and gifts random super powered magic items or cursed items.

[OgresAreCute]

Or just turn into a humanoid looking form again and be the uber powerful senile npc that can not die and gifts random super powered magic items or cursed items.

"Sometimes I forget things... where am I?" ~Ancient Mage

[Stevesciguy]

Honestly a lich is a crazy powerful mage with many lifetimes with which to study.
A demilich is a lich who has ascended to further power at a cost of what was left of their mortality.
Something further would probably have to lose what is left of their sanity. So an old one would be the next feasible step. A great old one is something so crazy powerful that many gods fear these creatures, and so removed from mortality and sanity, that no one can predict them.

Or just turn into a humanoid looking form again and be the uber powerful senile npc that can not die and gifts random super powered magic items or cursed items.

Well, he is pretty crazy, constantly cackling at his own "jokes" that make very little sense. I've fluffed him as being ridiculously old, to the point where even most deities have forgotten his name(the exceptions being gods of knowledge and such). He's a crazy old man, basically, with a rather disturbing lack of regard for life.


"Sometimes I forget things... where am I?" ~Ancient Mage

To build on what I said above about his age, he's literally called "The Unnamed". Why? He'd never admit it, but he's forgotten his own name as well:smalltongue:

[Falontani]

So he's Zifnab?

[Stevesciguy]

So he's Zifnab?

I am not familiar with who that is

[Falontani]

I am not familiar with who that is

From the Death Gate series. Highly suggested.

[KillianHawkeye]

Presumably, if you continue with the same pattern, you would get a quarterlich.

A microlich?


Vecna was a hecatoncheires.


And/or a beholder.

Beholdoncheires?


So he's Zifnab?


I am not familiar with who that is

Zifnab appeared in the Death Gate series of books, and was basically the alt version of Fizban, who was the human incarnation of Paladine in the Dragonlance series, who himself was the Dragonlance version of Bahamut. The Death Gate Cycle and the original Dragonlance books were both written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

[Bronk]

Title says it all.

I've seen some say that lichdom is a means to an end - that end being immortality.

Demiliches are liches who've discovered the secret of soul gems, and have forsaken most of a physical body for more powerful magic.

So, for a person who's goal is to become a "higher" form of undead, what comes next? Do you lose your body entirely and just become a being of negative energy? Do you join up with other demiliches and become one big demilich-skeleton? Do you become a swarm of skulls with your consciousness spread across them?

The question came up in a game I'm playing where my character will eventually ascend to demilich status. A bit premature, but found myself wondering "what's next?" so I thought I'd see what the rest of the playground thinks

Demilich is pretty much it in terms of an undead progression. However, the ELH has some extra background for it that the SRD doesn't include... basically, the statted out Demilich is just the physical remains of the true demilich, which is out roaming distant planes in astral form, plotting multiverse level shenanigans.

I think a good next step would be to work with that, and go from Lich to Demilich, then recombine with your true self, which you'd expect to be more powerful still. You'd have to work that part out with your DM.

[Mr Adventurer]

Hemilich. They're shorter.

[lord_khaine]

As I said you can become a worms that walks and get extra forms of undeath thus further increasing your characteristics(and also contract varied forms of lycanthropy to gain hit dice to retrain into class levels).
Heck since stacking the same template is not forbidden a demilich can become a demilich over and over to increase its mental stats of 10 at each time.

He asked for more advanced forms of undead.
The Worm that Walks isnt more advanced, its just more powerful.

Else, as for demi-lich advancement. Then bad jokes aside, then i think the next step from there is either to become a demi-god or a spirit of some sort.

[Flickerdart]

And/or a beholder.

Ah yes, beholders, the monster famous for having many hands.

https://i.imgur.com/fjckmJM.png

[DrMotives]

Ah yes, beholders, the monster famous for having many hands.

https://i.imgur.com/fjckmJM.png

I assumed they didn't know that hecatoncheires had multitudes of both hands & eyes. 100 of each, specifically. But, if you have bloodsipper beholders that only have 1 eye and have a lamprey-like mouth on every tentacle, maybe you could have a multi-handed beholder subrace. I'm sure it'd slap you as soon as look at you though.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, there are a lot of weird Beholder subraces out there.

https://i.imgur.com/yqDjGtN.png

[BowStreetRunner]

Hemilich. They're shorter.Tamatoa (https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Shiny) says "semi-demi-mini-lich".

[unseenmage]

Has Evolved Undead not been mentioned yet?

Or that one Construct powered by a phylactery?

[noob]

Has Evolved Undead not been mentioned yet?

Or that one Construct powered by a phylactery?

Grisgol is an evolution of lich and not specifically of demilich(and it is reserved for loser liches which get trapped and so lose their freedom and are now unintelligent constructs).

I could see a demilich deciding it is so obsessed with gems that it would ask to be trapped in one for a year(sanctify the wicked) and then later become a saint sanctified demilich for maximal confusion