Greater deities in 5e

[Millstone85]

This is something I have been musing on for a while.

Greater deities are beyond mortal understanding. They can't be summoned, and they are almost always removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs. On very rare occasions they manifest avatars similar to lesser deities, but slaying a greater god's avatar has no effect on the god itself.

Lesser deities are embodied somewhere in the planes. Some lesser deities live in the Material Plane, as does the unicorn-goddess Lurue of the Forgotten Realms and the titanic shark-god Sekolah revered by the sahuagin. Others live on the Outer Planes, as Lolth does in the Abyss. Such deities can be encountered by mortals.

link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=29m36s)
Even in FR, there is this notion of, beyond the gods, there is this sort of truer god, Ao, who makes the gods below Ao seem sort of like just really powerful mortals. There is this idea through D&D's history that even the gods themselves are contingent, that there is something beyond them that is sort of like a greater god, or a greater group of gods, who are inconceivable, really much more in line with what in our world mystics would talk about. You know, like the divine ultimately is not comprehensible by, you know, our puny human brains. And so D&D has often hinted that there is also something like that, and that the gods that people get spells from, and that there are temples to, are contingent.

Could it be that what this edition calls a greater deity is what other editions would have called an overdeity?

Which would make all the gods and goddesses listed in the various pantheon tables into lesser deities.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is something I have been musing on for a while.


link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHyJj8C21c&t=29m36s)

Could it be that what this edition calls a greater deity is what other editions would have called an overdeity?

Which would make all the gods and goddesses listed in the various pantheon tables into lesser deities.

No. Those "beyond the gods" entities are beyond the greater gods. They take no active part at all, and no one worships them (or at least they don't get power if they do so.

The difference between greater and lesser as I see it is whether a mortal can kill it and it stays dead. Greater gods: takes a god to permanently harm one. But lesser gods are "in the flesh" and so can be killed by any sufficiently strong entity.

Edit: read that totally wrong. It seems you're correct--if a god is embodied in the planes somewhere, they're a lesser deity. So all the "gods" worshiped in each world are lesser deities. Greater ones just don't get involved enough to matter more than conceptually...except in very rare circumstances.

[JackPhoenix]

Edit: read that totally wrong. It seems you're correct--if a god is embodied in the planes somewhere, they're a lesser deity. So all the "gods" worshiped in each world are lesser deities. Greater ones just don't get involved enough to matter more than conceptually...except in very rare circumstances.

Technically, all Eberron gods fit the greater deity category. Assuming they actually exist in the first place, that is. Except the Traveler. Again, if you accept the myths are actually true.

[Naanomi]

With a strict reading, and discounting all the ‘they may exist or not’ and ‘they are as strong as Gods but explicitly not Gods’ entities... I’d say classic DnD lore only has 4-5 known Greater Gods at all

[Griswold]

Technically, all Eberron gods fit the greater deity category. Assuming they actually exist in the first place, that is. Except the Traveler. Again, if you accept the myths are actually true.

Don't forget the deities in Eberron which do have "bodies" and live on the prime plane: The Silver Flame and the Undying Court. Both of which are very active in the affairs of Eberron.

[Griswold]

With a strict reading, and discounting all the ‘they may exist or not’ and ‘they are as strong as Gods but explicitly not Gods’ entities... I’d say classic DnD lore only has 4-5 known Greater Gods at all

What's your list? Here's my count:


Ao (Forgotten Realms)
The High God (Dragonlance)
Chaos (Dragonlance)
The Old Ones (Mystara)


And the will they/won't they gods:


The Serpent (Greyhawk)
The Sovereign Host (Eberron)

[Naanomi]

What's your list? Here's my count:


Ao (Forgotten Realms)
The High God (Dragonlance)
Chaos (Dragonlance)
The Old Ones (Mystara)


And the will they/won't they gods:


The Serpent (Greyhawk)
The Sovereign Host (Eberron)

I’d add...

* Ao’s Boss (the ‘luminous being’), unless that is supposed to be an Eldest Power ‘beyond the Gods’
* Anubis (risen up by the Eldest Powers beyond Godhood and need for worship when tasked with protecting the bodies of Dead Powers in the Astral)

And maybe...
*Primus, as a whole... not any individual Primus (who have come and gone); but the essence of Law personified and head exemplar of the Modrons... he has been labeled as a God before (in 2e) despite not being treated as such in 3.X
*The Four Elemental Gods (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia) who seem to predate the Gods proper, be unconcerned with worship, and seemed to ignore Ao’s time of troubles nonsense entirely

The head of the Dragon pantheon, Io, is also arguable (though not on my personal list)

[JackPhoenix]

Don't forget the deities in Eberron which do have "bodies" and live on the prime plane: The Silver Flame and the Undying Court. Both of which are very active in the affairs of Eberron.

I haven't forgot them. Neither is a deity. Both are pools of positive ("divine") energy. They serve as a power sources for clerics, but they have entirely mundane (well, as much as gestalt of couatl "souls" or inverse-undead are mundane) origin. And as for activity, the Court is active thanks to the individual Undying keeping their personality, motivations and ability to communicate with mortal elves. The Flame, not so much. There's the Voice, which wasn't the part of the original Flame, and it is uncertain to how much sapience the couatls forming the Flame kept. Without Tira, the Flame doesn't really present itself as a thinking entity.


Chaos (Dragonlance)

I don't think Chaos counts as Greater Deity by 5e definitions. He's definitely got physical body (not just avatar) and he was very much active in the mortal affairs, especially after he was imprisoned in the Greygem. He was more powerful than other gods, but that doesn't mean much, that some deities are more powerful than others isn't anything new in D&D.

[qube]

*The Four Elemental Gods (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia) who seem to predate the Gods proper, be unconcerned with worship, and seemed to ignore Ao’s time of troubles nonsense entirelyThat's because they aren't gods at all, but elementals (primordials). very powerful elementals. like, "powerful enough they are indistinguishable from gods" powerful.

[Millstone85]

That's because they aren't gods at all, but elementals (primordials). very powerful elementals. like, "powerful enough they are indistinguishable from gods" powerful.SCAG sure doesn't make the distinction, listing them in the main pantheon, complete with domains: Tempest for Akadi and Istishia, Knowledge for Grumbar, and Light for Kossuth.

My guess is that they are both, like Ghaunadaur is both a great old one and a god, and Asmodeus has recently become a god. Take the godhood away, and you still have four primordials, a GOO and an archdevil.

[Naanomi]

That's because they aren't gods at all, but elementals (primordials). very powerful elementals. like, "powerful enough they are indistinguishable from gods" powerful.
Primordials are only mentioned once in 5e that I can find, and without much explanation... I think it is mostly discarded 4e lore; they were assuredly Gods (and perhaps a bit more) in 2e Planescape lore

[qube]

SCAG sure doesn't make the distinction, listing them in the main pantheon, complete with domains: Tempest for Akadi and Istishia, Knowledge for Grumbar, and Light for Kossuth.Quite true - but it's not like they've got an entry in which a distinction can be made.

In fact, "The Gods of Fearun" chapter contains an entry for each and every one of the deities from the "dieties from the fearunian pantheon" table ... EXCEPT these four. It also mentions.


The deities of the Faerunian pantheon are by no means the only powers worshiped in the Realms. The nonhuman races have pantheons of their own (described in chapter 3), and scattered other cults and local divinities can be found across Faerun.



Primordials are only mentioned once in 5e that I can find, and without much explanation... I think it is mostly discarded 4e lorePerhaps. Though, one could point out the PHB also didn't mention the Mulhorand. But, a later book, SCAG, proves that didn't mean they discarded it.

I always reason, that unless retconned, the lore stays the same.

[Rafaelfras]

SCAG sure doesn't make the distinction, listing them in the main pantheon, complete with domains: Tempest for Akadi and Istishia, Knowledge for Grumbar, and Light for Kossuth.

My guess is that they are both, like Ghaunadaur is both a great old one and a god, and Asmodeus has recently become a god. Take the godhood away, and you still have four primordials, a GOO and an archdevil.

In Faerun they are gods, complete with a clergy and divine domains, the primordial stuff came on 4th edition and was shoved in forgotten realms.
On 3rd ed the universe begun with Selune and Shar and no primordials at all. On 5th they seemd to have abandoned that concept for the FR as you dont see they mentioned in Scag





Perhaps. Though, one could point out the PHB also didn't mention the Mulhorand. But, a later book, SCAG, proves that didn't mean they discarded it.

I always reason, that unless retconned, the lore stays the same.

The PHB is not a setting book so it doesnt have to mention anything about Faerun or any other setting. Sword coast adventure guide is a setting specific book for Forgotten realms, so it is in that book that you can find relevant information about that setting

[qube]

The PHB is not a setting book so it doesnt have to mention anything about Faerun or any other setting. The PHB appendix about the deities of fearun, contradict your logic. As that, is in fact where you'd expect the relevant information about the deities of fearun.

[Rafaelfras]

The PHB appendix about the deities of fearun, contradict your logic. As that, is in fact where you'd expect the relevant information about the deities of fearun.

It doesnt, in fact, the apendix name is "gods of the multiverse" and brings the deities of Faerun, Greyhalk, Dragon Lance and lots of other pantheons from lots of other settings, because the PHB is not a setting specific book.
Also, i said it doesnt HAVE to mention, not that it DOESNT mention. You cant assume anything about Faerum because it wasnt mentioned in the PHB, thats what SCAG is for

[Naanomi]

I always reason, that unless retconned, the lore stays the same.
I tend to do the same but... most of 4e seems to be very intentionally abandoned in favor of a return to a 2e/3e-Esque Planescape-y Great Wheel and related history... no Abyss hurled anywhere, no Tharzidun as the multiversal villain, no Far Realms everywhere...

[PhoenixPhyre]

I tend to do the same but... most of 4e seems to be very intentionally abandoned in favor of a return to a 2e/3e-Esque Planescape-y Great Wheel and related history... no Abyss hurled anywhere, no Tharzidun as the multiversal villain, no Far Realms everywhere...

As a note, the WotC house style guide (available for free on DM's Guild) has the following text:


Your main references for our worlds, such as the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, should be guides that we provide or official products published for the fifth edition of the D&D roleplaying game.

Don’t rely on Internet searches to give you the right answer to questions about a D&D setting. The Internet contains contradictions, misinterpretations, and outright fabrications. Both Wikipedia and the Forgotten Realms Wiki, for instance, contain some unreliable information.

Also, beware of relying solely on D&D products from previous editions. They often present conflicting or outdated information about a setting.


Note that last paragraph. This doesn't rule out old edition lore, but it does warn against it.


On a completely separate side note, it also has the following sidebar (emphasis mine):



A typical D&D story or adventure is part of the high fantasy subgenre of fantasy fiction, with the epic scope characteristic of that subgenre.

D&D is about small bands of characters embarking on adventures together. Teamwork and friendship are a huge part of what makes D&D distinct as a brand. The lone knight fighting a dragon is less characteristic of D&D than an adventuring team fighting a dragon. People on their own get into trouble; a team that works together can triumph.


I wish more people took that to heart, especially on the forums.

The house style guide is full of all sorts of useful information, including use of verbs.

[qube]

It doesnt, in fact, the apendix name is "gods of the multiverse" and brings the deities of Faerun, Greyhalk, Dragon Lance and lots of other pantheons from lots of other settings, because the PHB is not a setting specific book. Chapter then. pedantic arguments leaves us nowhere. Fact is - The PHB has a section - or however you want to call it - about the deities of Faerun - and it doesn't mention everything.

OBVIOUSLY it doesn't mention everything; You can, and they have, filled books, on faerunian dieties.
(as is, I'd love to see a complete book, including all the lower deities from non-human pantheons)


You cant assume anything about Faerum because it wasnt mentioned in the PHB, thats what SCAG is forExcept, the SCAG notes this is only an introduction to the vast lore. So you can't assume anything about Faerum because it wasnt mentioned in the SCAG, either.

As introduction, I woulnd't think they go in to the intricate ins and outs of Faerunian religion. (hey, we're lucky they mention Mulhorand - which is not on the sword coast, but on the other side of the known continent)


As a note, the WotC house style guide (available for free on DM's Guild) has the following text:

Note that last paragraph. This doesn't rule out old edition lore, but it does warn against it.Odly enough, I don't read that as a warning (ort thing the term is too harsh), I read that as an "all rights reserved to change things when it doesn't suit us"

... plus, do note, that this line of reasoning, extends from the quote

"who seem to predate the Gods proper, be unconcerned with worship, and seemed to ignore Ao’s time of troubles nonsense entirely"
... something, I'm pretty sure is not 5E lore either. (as they aren't mentioned in the PHB, and only one-lined in the SCAG)

As is,
it's a situation from past editions
the previous edition had a perfectly logical explenation for this
this hasn't been retconned in the current edition

So, I honestly don't see what the problem is.

[Rukelnikov]

On 3rd ed the universe begun with Selune and Shar and no primordials at all. On 5th they seemd to have abandoned that concept for the FR as you dont see they mentioned in Scag

I think those 2 were only the beginning for Toril (or maybe all of Realmspace).

On Oghma: "[...]Not long after Shar and Selune created Toril and gave birth to Chauntea, the world's animating spirit, a traveler ventured to the world from a distant realm.[...]"

I'm also pretty sure most racial skyfathers predate those two too.

[Millstone85]

I tend to do the same but... most of 4e seems to be very intentionally abandoned in favor of a return to a 2e/3e-Esque Planescape-y Great Wheel and related history... no Abyss hurled anywhere, no Tharzidun as the multiversal villain, no Far Realms everywhere...I would say it is more complicated than that.

4e had four published settings: Nentir Vale, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun. The World Axis cosmology was made for Nentir Vale, and imposed on the three other settings. In spite of that, these settings were not assumed to coexist within the same multiverse. Each effectively had its own world axis. And even when a character was present in several settings, it was more like alternate versions of said character.

For example, consider the Abyss and the Nine Hells:

In NV lore, the Abyss was created when the god Tharizdun hurled a stone of pure evil, possibly from the Far Realm, into the Elemental Chaos. Much later, the angel Asmodeus stole a shard of that stone, mounted it on a scepter, and used it to slain the now-forgotten god he was serving, which was the inception of the Nine Hells. Since then, demons want to bring the shard back into the Abyss, while devils want to steal even more of the stone, and thus the Blood War rages on.
In FR lore, the Abyss and the Nine Hells used to both be outer planes, until Asmodeus used his newfound godhood to hurl the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. His intent was to put the Blood War on hold by distancing the two planes from each other, and it worked. Tharizdun had nothing to do with any of this.

If Nentir Vale was ported to 5e, it would probably be in the same year as it was in 4e, and heavily retconned to fit the 5e Great Wheel. That's how it works for most settings. But Forgotten Realms has the particularity of incorporating edition changes into its ongoing timeline. SCAG's "A Brief History" includes the Spellplague, and Asmodeus is listed in the main pantheon as the god of indulgence. My guess is that the Second Sundering, or some other event, got the Abyss out of the Elemental Chaos.

[Naanomi]

My guess is that the Second Sundering, or some other event, got the Abyss out of the Elemental Chaos.
I guess it just never happened; we got no mention of such an event in MtoF... and frankly we seem to be back on a 2eish model of the Gods where none of them would have the power to hurl an infinite plane across the Cosmology in the first place... the second sundering was an event of Realmspace, not something that had some Grand effect on the Great Wheel (frankly, Ao’s power and authority doesn’t extend past the crystal sphere wall and the Gods worshiped within it, no one cares about his tablet of fate off the world)

Also, as an aside, FR isn’t a very ‘old’ or central crystal sphere in terms of planar history... after all it was created by Ao and his actions with Shar/Selene... whereas some of the worlds out there (and the broad structure of both the inner and outer planes) predate the Gods all together; while 5e doesn’t leave us a lot of details by itself it does establish this as still true in the Aboleth MM entry. Asmodeus becoming a God is a big deal on a planar level, that he happens to be worshiped in Realmspace is just a foot note to that

[Millstone85]

I guess it just never happened; we got no mention of such an event in MtoF... and frankly we seem to be back on a 2eish model of the Gods where none of them would have the power to hurl an infinite plane across the Cosmology in the first place... the second sundering was an event of Realmspace, not something that had some Grand effect on the Great Wheel (frankly, Ao’s power and authority doesn’t extend past the crystal sphere wall and the Gods worshiped within it, no one cares about his tablet of fate off the world)It does all seem very difficult to reconciliate with a shared multiverse, so yeah, I could see that part of the 3e-4e transition being retconned out for 5e.


Also, as an aside, FR isn’t a very ‘old’ or central crystal sphere in terms of planar history... after all it was created by Ao and his actions with Shar/Selene... whereas some of the worlds out there (and the broad structure of both the inner and outer planes) predate the Gods all together; while 5e doesn’t leave us a lot of details by itself it does establish this as still true in the Aboleth MM entry. Asmodeus becoming a God is a big deal on a planar level, that he happens to be worshiped in Realmspace is just a foot note to thatAlso true, although I would note that Asmodeus' ascension began with Realmspace events. As acknowledged in SCAG p118: "During the Spellplague, Asmodeus consumed the divine spark of Azuth and thereby achieved godhood."

Back on the topic of primordials, I think SCAG's dragonborn lore confirms they are still a thing:

"Another legend asserts that Io created the dragons at the birth of the world, but dragonborn did not yet exist. Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror."
"Dragonborn hail from Abeir, the primordial twin of Toril."

Abeir's entire existence is based on FR's version of the Dawn War. Like the NV version, it was a conflict between the gods and the primordials. The difference is that instead of ending with nature spirits sending the gods and primordials back to their respective planes, here the conflict ended with Ao splitting Abeir-Toril so that each side would have a world to rule.

[Naanomi]

Fair enough about primordeals, though I could argue that verifying that beings called primordeals were important in Realmspace and ultimately necessitated a split between Abeir and Toril; and saying they had any larger role in Planar History is... a question we don’t have enough info to answer either way, but we are not given much to indicate that... and that any specific beings, like the Elemental Gods, are Primordeals and not Gods (or even that the two are mutually exclusive) is lacking