How exactly does Eldritch Spellweave affect the original spell?

[Almostdead]

I saw a lot of posts talking about how does (vitriolic essence+eldritch spellweave) make your spells ignore SR.


Eldritch Spellweave (Su): Beginning at 5th level, you can apply an eldritch essence invocation you know (other than greatreach blast or spellblast; see the eldritch theurge class features on page 57) to any divine spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack. The spell's level must be at least as high as the level of the eldritch essence (for example, you can apply hellrime blast only to a spell of level 4th or higher). If the essence requires a saving throw, use the normal save DC for that essence. If the eldritch essence invocation changes the damage of the spell, it can be applied only to a spell that deals damage (you can't add brimstone blast to dimensional anchor, for example).

Using this ability increases the spell casting time to 1 full-round action. A spell that has a normal casting time of 1 full-round action or longer takes an extra full-round action to cast. If the spell has more than one target or allows more than one attack, you must choose one target to be affected by the invocation; all other targets take only the normal effect of the spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Cha modifier (minimum 1).



Vitriolic Blast
This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into a vitriolic blast. A vitriolic blast deals acid damage, and it is formed from conjured acid, making it different from other eldritch essences because it ignores spell resistance. Creatures struck by a vitriolic blast automatically take an extra 2d6 points of acid damage on following rounds. This acid damage persists for 1 round per five class levels you have. For example, a 15th-level warlock deals 2d6 points of acid damage per round for 3 rounds after the initial vitriolic blast attack.


I am not sure how does this work? Does the essence change all spell damage to acid so it ignores SR? If not, does the essence add acid damage into the original spell? But in that case, a spell with acid damage is not necessarily a NO SR spell (like Energy Spheres).
And in the description of spellweave it says "If the essence requires a saving throw, use the normal save DC for that essence. " So even if you apply the essence to a spell, it is treated as a individual effect.
Therefore, how does this "ignore SR" thingy happen? Or it is just a misunderstanding of the class feature?

[Almostdead]

Help? Anyone?

[Thedez]

Vitriolic Blast
This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into a vitriolic blast. A vitriolic blast deals acid damage, and it is formed from conjured acid, making it different from other eldritch essences because it ignores spell resistance. Creatures struck by a vitriolic blast automatically take an extra 2d6 points of acid damage on following rounds. This acid damage persists for 1 round per five class levels you have. For example, a 15th-level warlock deals 2d6 points of acid damage per round for 3 rounds after the initial vitriolic blast attack.

Nah, it's just special, because by RAW it ignores spell resistance.

[Almostdead]

Nah, it's just special, because by RAW it ignores spell resistance.

Yes, I knew "Vitriolic Blast" is special. But that doesn't make the spell it applies to special as well.
I'm asking about the second part.

[Zaq]

Interesting edge case. I'm reading the same rules you are, so obviously, there's not going to be a lot of explicit explanation one way or the other in the actual text, and the Eldritch Spellweave ability is worded loosely enough that I'm not surprised to find edge cases.

I think this works, to be honest. It can only apply to a spell that does damage, but if Eldritch Spellweave does anything at all, what makes sense to me is that you basically read the essence invocation as though you had crossed out "eldritch blast" and written in the name of the single-target spell that you're using.

This doesn't even seem that OP to me. Ignoring SR is great, but the limit of needing to be a spell that deals damage (because vitriolic blast mentions changing EB's damage type) and of needing to be applied to "any divine spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack" means that it's not actually that easy to find spells where ignoring SR lets you do something horrible that you couldn't do already.

The spell level prohibition is actually really weird to me. Why is it that you have to be casting a spell of the essence's level or higher? I'm not sure the prohibition needs to be there at all, but I'd almost expect in a vacuum that it'd slap a maximum spell level on you, not a minimum spell level. Maybe it's to punish builds that lean super-heavily into warlock and not enough into the divine class?

Now I'm trying to think of divine spells that meet all the guidelines: 6th level or higher, single target or uses an attack roll, deals damage, and allows SR (I mean, it doesn't have to allow SR, but that's half the point, no?). I guess harm is a fairly obvious example, but there's not too many others. (Harm is actually kind of weird when made vitriolic, but maybe that's the point?) Finger of death as a druid spell, technically. Not really seeing much else with a quick glance through the PHB, though there's probably some good stuff in the Spell Compendium. I guess Heightened shivering touch might technically count?

But rambling aside, I believe that you've got a reasonably compelling argument, so I think that this would indeed work to allow you to ignore SR as long as you can find spells to use as a base.

[Thedez]

Yes, I knew "Vitriolic Blast" is special. But that doesn't make the spell it applies to special as well.
I'm asking about the second part.

Well, see, that's the thing. Eldritch blast isn't special. Vitriolic blast is special. Vitriolic blast is applied to eldritch blast, which then makes Eldritch blast special.
So, the spell isn't special either. But vitriolic bkast remains special, so by extension the spell becomes so as well.

[Almostdead]

Interesting edge case. I'm reading the same rules you are, so obviously, there's not going to be a lot of explicit explanation one way or the other in the actual text, and the Eldritch Spellweave ability is worded loosely enough that I'm not surprised to find edge cases.

I think this works, to be honest. It can only apply to a spell that does damage, but if Eldritch Spellweave does anything at all, what makes sense to me is that you basically read the essence invocation as though you had crossed out "eldritch blast" and written in the name of the single-target spell that you're using.

This doesn't even seem that OP to me. Ignoring SR is great, but the limit of needing to be a spell that deals damage (because vitriolic blast mentions changing EB's damage type) and of needing to be applied to "any divine spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack" means that it's not actually that easy to find spells where ignoring SR lets you do something horrible that you couldn't do already.

The spell level prohibition is actually really weird to me. Why is it that you have to be casting a spell of the essence's level or higher? I'm not sure the prohibition needs to be there at all, but I'd almost expect in a vacuum that it'd slap a maximum spell level on you, not a minimum spell level. Maybe it's to punish builds that lean super-heavily into warlock and not enough into the divine class?

Now I'm trying to think of divine spells that meet all the guidelines: 6th level or higher, single target or uses an attack roll, deals damage, and allows SR (I mean, it doesn't have to allow SR, but that's half the point, no?). I guess harm is a fairly obvious example, but there's not too many others. (Harm is actually kind of weird when made vitriolic, but maybe that's the point?) Finger of death as a druid spell, technically. Not really seeing much else with a quick glance through the PHB, though there's probably some good stuff in the Spell Compendium. I guess Heightened shivering touch might technically count?

But rambling aside, I believe that you've got a reasonably compelling argument, so I think that this would indeed work to allow you to ignore SR as long as you can find spells to use as a base.



Well, see, that's the thing. Eldritch blast isn't special. Vitriolic blast is special. Vitriolic blast is applied to eldritch blast, which then makes Eldritch blast special.
So, the spell isn't special either. But vitriolic bkast remains special, so by extension the spell becomes so as well.


Actually, my main concern here is that, does Eldritch Spellweave allow you to apply all features of an essence into a spell. Or just add the essence to the spell as an individual/additional effect.

@Thedez This is not a problem for EB cause all essences indicate "change EB to..." or "transform EB to...".

But in Eldritch Spellweave, there is no such indication. How to explain the description: "If the essence requires a saving throw, use the normal save DC for that essence." In my opinion, this sentence separates essence from the spell it applies to.

@Zaq As you said "there's not going to be a lot of explicit explanation". I think this problem goes to DM at the end.

But to remind you there is another PRC class that possesses the same feature called eldritch theurge. And he can apply an eldritch essence invocation to any arcane spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack.

[Thedez]

Actually, my main concern here is that, does Eldritch Spellweave allow you to apply all features of an essence into a spell. Or just add the essence to the spell as an individual/additional effect.

@Thedez This is not a problem for EB cause all essences indicate "change EB to..." or "transform EB to...".

But in Eldritch Spellweave, there is no such indication. How to explain the description: "If the essence requires a saving throw, use the normal save DC for that essence." In my opinion, this sentence separates essence from the spell it applies to.

@Zaq As you said "there's not going to be a lot of explicit explanation". I think this problem goes to DM at the end.

But to remind you there is another PRC class that possesses the same feature called eldritch theurge. And he can apply an eldritch essence invocation to any arcane spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack.

Okay, so a few things we have to keep in mind here is what an Eldritch Blast Essence does.
"Some of a warlock’s invocations, such as frightful blast, modify the damage or other effects of the warlock’s eldritch blast. These are called eldritch essence invocations. Unless noted otherwise, eldritch blasts modified by eldritch essence invocations deal damage normally in addition to imparting the effects described in the invocation description."
So an Eldritch Blast Invocation, unless otherwise noted, imparts its' effects in addition to whatever the EB does already. So in this case, that means that the spell's abilities are taken and then you literally add whatever effect the EBI would give you. So, in this case, we need to know what Vitriolic Blast actually adds to a spell.

"This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into a vitriolic blast. A vitriolic blast deals acid damage, and it is formed from conjured acid, making it different from other eldritch essences because it ignores spell resistance. Creatures struck by a vitriolic blast automatically take an extra 2d6 points of acid damage on following rounds. This acid damage persists for 1 round per five class levels you have. For example, a 15th-level warlock deals 2d6 points of acid damage per round for 3 rounds after the initial vitriolic blast attack."

Vitriolic Blast doesn't just change the damage code to acid, it is acid. An Eldritch Blast is traditionally eldritch energy, but because of the rules text of Vitriolic Blast, it is actual acid, not energy. Which is why the description says it ignores SR, is because it's actual, real acid. HOWEVER, the reason it still deals its' regular damage and whatever other effects it might have, is because this is explicitly *in addition to* whatever the EB does already.
So, by the rules of the Eldritch Blast Invocation state that, *unless otherwise stated*, all abilities mentioned in the text are *in addition to* whatever damage the EB does regularly. So, yes, the EBI is separate from the blast/spell, but no, it isn't its' own spell that you're using at the same time. It's a modifier added to the spell in question.

Now, the only thing that's really rules-questionable is that EBIs were never intended to be applied to something that does more than damage, and it technically doesn't have any text allowing for both the spell effect and the EBI to be used in conjunction, so in theory a conservative DM could rule that the EBI just completely overrides any non-damage effect of the spell.