Tough like the Dragon, the Giant, the Dwarf, and the Human

[Afgncaap5]

Toughness is, by pretty much everyone's standards, not the best investment as a feat. It's okay for rounding out the occasional monster, but not really super for players.

I like treating it sorta like Improved Toughness, basically +1 hit point per hit die (minimum 3).

How*ever*... I want some more. Dwarf's Toughness (6 hp), Giant's Toughness (9 hp), and Dragon's Toughness (12 hp) are natural progressions from this.

If I were to update them so that they're more like Improved Toughness, would it be too strong to make them...

Dwarf's Toughness: +2 hp per hit die
Giant's Toughness: +3 hp per hit die
Dragon's Toughness: +4 hp per hit die

A person with each of these would be clocking in at +10 hp per hit die. And, well... I like that. Frankly, given how hp starts mattering less and less at the higher levels, I'd be tempted to lower the prerequisites but, well... thought I'd mention my inklings here before I suggested them to players. What d'you think?

[Bronk]

Toughness is, by pretty much everyone's standards, not the best investment as a feat. It's okay for rounding out the occasional monster, but not really super for players.

It's true... such a trap feat.



I like treating it sorta like Improved Toughness, basically +1 hit point per hit die (minimum 3).


That's very nice of you. Improved Toughness is a much better feat anyway.



How*ever*... I want some more. Dwarf's Toughness (6 hp), Giant's Toughness (9 hp), and Dragon's Toughness (12 hp) are natural progressions from this.

If I were to update them so that they're more like Improved Toughness, would it be too strong to make them...

Dwarf's Toughness: +2 hp per hit die
Giant's Toughness: +3 hp per hit die
Dragon's Toughness: +4 hp per hit die

A person with each of these would be clocking in at +10 hp per hit die. And, well... I like that. Frankly, given how hp starts mattering less and less at the higher levels, I'd be tempted to lower the prerequisites but, well... thought I'd mention my inklings here before I suggested them to players. What d'you think?

It probably wouldn't be too strong, but it would be going over the power level of existing feats. Even Improved Toughness is weird when you think about it, because it basically gives you most of the benefits of getting +2 to your constitution score (you know, minus the +1 to fort save and a bonus to one or two skills at most), which is the equivalent of a 4000 gold piece magic item. When you think of it like that, +2 HP per die is the equivalent of +4 to Con (16000 gold), +3 is +6 to Con (36000 gold), and +4 is +8 to Con (an epic item at 640000 gold), blowing way past the guideline from AEG that a feat is worth about 10000 gold (when put on a magic item, but still). Plus, the lower ones would still be traps compared to the higher ones.

If you kept the prerequisites, you'd also be barring the now awesome Giant's and Dragon's toughness from those who needed them most, spell casters with low hit dice and low fort saves.

I think, if it were me, I'd just allow people to take Improved Toughness more than once and have its benefits stack. (As a player, I'd snap these up in a second though...)

[Eladrinblade]

In my games, toughness grants +2 hp +1 per level (3 at 1st, 4 at 2nd, etc).

What you could do is have it ramp up at higher levels. So at 5th level, it starts granting 2 hp per level instead of one. At 10th level, it's 3 hp. At 15th, it's 4.

22 + 16 + 11 + 6 = 55 hp over 20 levels. That's almost as much as a item of con +6 gives.

[magic9mushroom]

One thing probably worth bringing up in this context is Faerie Mysteries Initiate, since that's the archetypal "Toughness, but so improved it becomes OP" feat. It sets HP to Int instead of Con, which is worth +2 hp per die if they're assigned the same score (Gray Elf racial modifiers), +3 to +5 per die when you take into account that you'll shuffle your ability score assignments to take advantage, and even more than that for an Int-caster due to increased SADness.

If you want to modify the various Toughness feats this way, I'd suggest chaining them - so you need Toughness to take Dwarf's Toughness, Dwarf's Toughness to take Giant's Toughness, and Giant's Toughness to take Dragon's Toughness. Otherwise they're not very balanced against each other and the later ones start to smell like FMI.

[Endarire]

It's better to just decide how much HP per HD each feat is worth. Use that. Faerie Mysteries Initiate is a good feat because of how helpful it is.

[King of Nowhere]

Even Improved Toughness is weird when you think about it, because it basically gives you most of the benefits of getting +2 to your constitution score (you know, minus the +1 to fort save and a bonus to one or two skills at most), which is the equivalent of a 4000 gold piece magic item. When you think of it like that, +2 HP per die is the equivalent of +4 to Con (16000 gold), +3 is +6 to Con (36000 gold), and +4 is +8 to Con (an epic item at 640000 gold), blowing way past the guideline from AEG that a feat is worth about 10000 gold (when put on a magic item, but still). Plus, the lower ones would still be traps compared to the higher ones.



You can't really compare like that, because feat and +2 con stack with each other, unlike enhancement bonuses.

All things considered, i'd say 10 hp/hd is a good return for 4 feats.

[Promethean]

edit: move Along I mis-read some things. This unneeded post is left to mark my shame.

[Elkad]

If you want to limit it somewhat (and don't mind losing the flavorful names), just make Improved Toughness a feat you can take multiple times.

Maybe limit it to once for each point of base Fort Save you have.

[Bronk]

You can't really compare like that, because feat and +2 con stack with each other, unlike enhancement bonuses.

I think being untyped makes the feats more overpowered, not less.



All things considered, i'd say 10 hp/hd is a good return for 4 feats.

Yeah, and I don't really think it would break a game, but as a DM it would be way too good. You're supposed to consider preexisting feats when creating new ones, and the weakest of these is literally twice as good as Improved Toughness (then 3 times as good, then 4 times as good). The original versions of the feats are in the same pickle, except that they have relatively high prereqs and they're being compared to the regular Toughness feat, which is universally understood to be a trash feat.


If you want to limit it somewhat (and don't mind losing the flavorful names), just make Improved Toughness a feat you can take multiple times.

Maybe limit it to once for each point of base Fort Save you have.

I like that prereq, especially if it's extended to epic saves.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dwarf's Toughness: +2 hp per hit die
Giant's Toughness: +3 hp per hit die
Dragon's Toughness: +4 hp per hit die
Probably wouldn't be OP, just a bit boring. At some point, "being very tough" stops being about hit points, and starts being about resistances and immunities, which you could add to those feats. For example, dwarves have a racial bonus on saves versus poison, and dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis.

[DarkSoul]

I like the stacking improved toughness idea, capped by base fort modifier. I think that's what I'll go with for my personal house rules.

[Mrark]

I think nobody would pick 4 feats for 10 hp per hit die. It isn't worthy enough, I mean with that amount of feats I can almost build a thunder-power-wakawaka-megacombo-ubercharge-oneshottingeverything warrior, or cheat with metamagic feats as a caster. I would maybe consider picking it up as a wizard if it was a one-feat-straight 10 hp/hitdie, but I'm not even sure. You can pick a very little amount of feats, and hp don't matter that much

[Elkad]

I think nobody would pick 4 feats for 10 hp per hit die. It isn't worthy enough, I mean with that amount of feats I can almost build a thunder-power-wakawaka-megacombo-ubercharge-oneshottingeverything warrior, or cheat with metamagic feats as a caster. I would maybe consider picking it up as a wizard if it was a one-feat-straight 10 hp/hitdie, but I'm not even sure. You can pick a very little amount of feats, and hp don't matter that much

Hit point death is by far the most common form of death at any table I've ever played at.

And what if the enemy takes the feats and your ubercharger only drops him by a third of his life? Now you are standing next to him, and probably missing half your armor class.

[magic9mushroom]

Hit point death is by far the most common form of death at any table I've ever played at.

And what if the enemy takes the feats and your ubercharger only drops him by a third of his life? Now you are standing next to him, and probably missing half your armor class.

In fairness, some of the "all the damage" builds don't really care how much health you have. At ECL 11 a Half-Minotaur Human Cleric 9/Hulking Hurler 1 with Natural Heavyweight, Divine Power and Righteous Might can chuck a couple of several-ton boulders for 77d6 damage each. When he gets to ECL 19 and can Miracle Giant Size that goes up to 1364d6 each (although the requisite hundred-ton boulders might be a bit difficult to transport). +10 hp per HD is only somewhat relevant for the first and not relevant at all for the second.

What you mention (though usually by other means than "too much HP") is one of the major pitfalls of uberchargers, though. The biggest advantage of Hulking Hurler isn't the damage, it's the range.

[King of Nowhere]

In fairness, some of the "all the damage" builds don't really care how much health you have. At ECL 11 a Half-Minotaur Human Cleric 9/Hulking Hurler 1 with Natural Heavyweight, Divine Power and Righteous Might can chuck a couple of several-ton boulders for 77d6 damage each. When he gets to ECL 19 and can Miracle Giant Size that goes up to 1364d6 each (although the requisite hundred-ton boulders might be a bit difficult to transport). +10 hp per HD is only somewhat relevant for the first and not relevant at all for the second.

What you mention (though usually by other means than "too much HP") is one of the major pitfalls of uberchargers, though. The biggest advantage of Hulking Hurler isn't the damage, it's the range.

Depends on the power level. Not many people play with a build that deals 1300d6

[liquidformat]

Depends on the power level. Not many people play with a build that deals 1300d6

My hulking hurler deals 4,099d6 and I am probably the most underpowered player at the table...

[Menzath]

Feats that add hp are going to definitely be better in lower op games, especially in the low to mid level range, even more so in low tier party setups.

Soon as you hit mid to high op, the falloff is drastic, either becuase overdamage becomes the norm, or at high op where HP itself matters less.

If I was playing an under t2 game, with friends who just wanted to have alot of fun and not focus on high end builds, I could see taking this feat(s).
But if it's a rocket tag high tier game, I'd try getting rocket immunity, then faster rockets.

[Elkad]

My hulking hurler deals 4,099d6 and I am probably the most underpowered player at the table...

And at my table, they are just hitting 100 damage a round somewhat routinely at level 9.

[icefractal]

I don't think it would be OP (four feats is a lot), but HP definitely aren't useless either. I mean, maybe in a campaign where the GM is throwing uber-chargers at the party and not being hit is the only defense, it's useless, but IME, that's been the case ... never. Not even in the relatively higher-op games.

In most campaigns, the opposition tends to throw around amounts of damage that may be significant but seldom kill a character in one shot. And while defenses are great, there are ultimately ways to bypass any defense, and it's likely that 'serious' opposition is going to start using those ways more as you become increasingly famous. So having a big boat-load of HP is quite handy. Likewise, the capability to throw significant damage is pretty handy, because you're much more likely to face a boss-monster that has "immunity to all status bull****" than "immunity to damage".

[magic9mushroom]

Likewise, the capability to throw significant damage is pretty handy, because you're much more likely to face a boss-monster that has "immunity to all status bull****" than "immunity to damage".

I can only think of one of each, really (at least off the top of my head). "All" status is pretty broad.

(Specifically, the Zodar and Atropal.)

[Endarire]

Getting 'only' +1 HP per HD for a feat, at least to me, seems weak considering the multitude of other things available. Also, for most creatures, getting +2 stat (like +2 CON) means +1 HP per HD in addition to other stuff.

My favorite Toughness variant so far is +25% max HP, takable once.

[Gnaeus]

And at my table, they are just hitting 100 damage a round somewhat routinely at level 9.

So those 4 feats translate to “survive ubercharger for 1 round?” Doesn’t seem op.