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Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 03:56 PM
Simply, the title covers it. I've heard there are some amazing bard feats for the 3.5 bard now, supposedly -- what and where are they?

(Please no acronyms. If I didn't know about it before, I won't know anything more about it after you tell me I can find it in the "SfB Vol. 2" or whatever.)

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-29, 03:58 PM
Versatile Performer, in Complete Adventurer.

TK-Squared
2007-09-29, 04:01 PM
If you use your music alot, take Extra Music (Complete Adventurer) to double your amount of music per HD.

Don't take Subsonics. I'm not really sure that it has a point.

Mephibosheth
2007-09-29, 04:03 PM
Snowflake Wardance, Frostburn p. 50.

martyboy74
2007-09-29, 04:03 PM
And since you specifically asked for no abbreviations, CAdv means Complete Adventurer.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-29, 04:03 PM
Also try Green Ear from Complete Adventurer.

Yeril
2007-09-29, 04:06 PM
Skill focus (Perform) +3 to facinate DC!

and I thought extra music gave you +4 uses per day not double music?

Ironskin chant (complete adventurer) I suppose can get you/your allies out of a pickle, once per round as a free action grant DR 5/-- to an ally or yourself at the price of 1 use of bardic music per round.

TK-Squared
2007-09-29, 04:08 PM
and I thought extra music gave you +4 uses per day not double music?


I have no idea how I actually misread that.

Really.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 04:19 PM
Snowflake Wardance, Frostburn p. 50.

Oooo, now there's one I don't recognize! What does it do, exactly? I don't have Frostburn (yet).

TK-Squared
2007-09-29, 04:21 PM
Oooo, now there's one I don't recognize! What does it do, exactly? I don't have Frostburn (yet).

It allows you to add your Charisma bonus to your attack rolls with slashing weapons while doing the dance.

goat
2007-09-29, 04:28 PM
The dance of death?

edit - That wouldn't work for my bard design anyway, his war-digeridoo is a bludgeoning weapon.

Maybe if I strapped a sort of bayonet to it...

TK-Squared
2007-09-29, 04:30 PM
The dance of death?

It is a Wardance.

Thane
2007-09-29, 04:36 PM
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting): Grants basically +1 to the effects or DC's of all bardic abilities.

Versatile performer from Complete adventurer is another must have: Grants you additional performance styles equal to your int bonus that are used at the skill of whatever perform skill you have most ranks in. For example, if you have 14 Int (+2 bonus), then if you put 10 ranks in singing, you can also get 10 free ranks in Stringed Instruments and Wind Instruments (if those are the 2 you pick). You gain +2 circumstance bonus on perform checks whenever using two styles at once.

Acrobatic Strike I forget which book, but it grants +4 attack bonus whenever you tumble past an opponent to avoid an attack of opportunity. +4 bonus is hefty... the tumbling means you won't be using a full attack, but this goes a long way towards closing lost attack bonus from your bard levels. Or in other words, it'll let you hit those heavily armored opponents.

When you can afford it, get a vest of legends from DMG II for 16,000 gold. It'll raise your bard level by 5 for determining inspire courage effects (and gives you +5 perform/diplomacy).

Circlet of persuasion is also nice (4,500 gold) and gives +3 to all charisma based skill checks.

All these boosts to performance skill will give you horribly badass saving throw DC's on your fascination / suggestion abilities.

Words of Creation: This feat is in Book of Exalted Deeds. It's total bull**** overpowered (like most stuff in that book). It requires DM permission to take it. I mention it just because it exists, not because I'm recommending it. It's purely for munchkins.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-09-29, 04:38 PM
Lingering Song (I think Complete Adventurer as well). Double the duration of the song's effect after you're done singing (for example, I think Inspire Courage lasts five rounds after you stop singing, now it lasts ten). Sing once at the beginning of combat, then switch to a different song or actually fight, since very few fights last more than ten rounds.

Saph
2007-09-29, 04:42 PM
Words of Creation, from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is incredibly powerful for a bard, since it doubles the bonus from your Inspire Courage. Unfortunately you're unlikely to get it, because you have to be Exalted-level Good (like more strongly good-aligned than a paladin) to use it, assuming your DM even allows Exalted Deeds in the game (many don't).

Versatile Performer is definitely worth taking.

Lingering Song is a good one too. It's from Complete Adventurer and makes the effects of your bardic music last for 10 rounds after you stop singing instead of 5, meaning you can sing for one round and it'll last the whole fight.

- Saph

Edit: Aah! Double-ninja attack!

Thane
2007-09-29, 04:43 PM
Oh yeah. "Harmonizing" is a magic weapon suffix from the magic item compendium that can be added at the cost of +1 enhancement.

It turns such a weapon into a singing weapon that accompanies you. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus to your perform, but even better the sword can continue singing a song you start for 10 rounds (which is altogether better than lingering music. The song will continue for 10 rounds, and the effect for another 5, for 15 rounds of effect... whee). This also frees you up to sing another song (you could start inspire greatness, for example, and then let your sword continue it while you start singing inspire courage instead).

At level 13, with a harmonizing sword and the feats / items I mentioned above except words of creation (and I'm including Inspirational Boost spell from spell compendium) my bard can raise everyone's attack by +8, damage by +5, grant +3d10 HP, and +2 fort saves, and +5 save -vs- compulsion / fear. Takes him two rounds to get all that music up and running... but those are some great bonuses to walk into boss encounters with :)

Fax Celestis
2007-09-29, 04:43 PM
Oh! Arcane Accompaniment from PHB-II. Song of the White Raven from Tome of Battle.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-29, 04:45 PM
Melodic Casting in Complete Mage is pretty good. You need it to get into Lyric Thaumaturge, which is a really good bard PrC, so that helps too.

It basically allows you to cast while performing and to use your perform check in place of a concentration check.

Thane
2007-09-29, 04:47 PM
Song of the White Raven from Tome of Battle.

Song of the white raven requires you to have a class with maneuvers (like crusader). I was just limiting feat recommendations to the bard class.

Also, you can only use 1 swift action per round. So if you're using song of the white raven, you can't also cast inspirational boost (also a swift action).

You'd be able to start 2 songs in one round using song of the white raven, but your inspire courage effects would be 1 point lower. Which still might be a worthwhile tradeoff, I'm just mentioning it to give a balanced picture.

Thane
2007-09-29, 04:50 PM
It basically allows you to cast while performing and to use your perform check in place of a concentration check.

Meh... who casts bard spells in combat? :) DC's are so low the offensive ones get resisted like mad. I just load my spell list up with utility and buffs. Alter self and a metamagic rod of minor spell extend is a good way to jack up your AC.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 05:38 PM
Meh... who casts bard spells in combat? :) DC's are so low the offensive ones get resisted like mad. I just load my spell list up with utility and buffs. Alter self and a metamagic rod of minor spell extend is a good way to jack up your AC.

Otto's Irresistible Dance?

And Otto's Irresistible Dance?

Did I mention Otto's Irresistible Dance?

NO save AND lose is pretty high up on my priority list, right along with the (you can't possibly) save or (count on it; you will) lose Fascinate/Suggestion combination. :smalltongue:

Edit: I also like Distort Speech from Complete Adventurer. First level? Sure. Save or suck vs. wizards that forces them to try a Fortitude save? Sure.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 05:45 PM
Otto's dimensional dance. Transports the dancer through dangerous planes, and he/she takes damage, all the while allowing coup de grace with no save. Level 9 normally, but bards can take it if you implement a feat I can't remember that allows you to include all of otto's spells into your list. And it's not in exalted.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-29, 05:51 PM
Meh... who casts bard spells in combat?Grease would like to have a word with you. Glitterdust would like a word after that. As would Mirror Image, Haste, and Slow.

Melodic Casting is indeed a great one, both for freeing up the song and spell angle and for saving you skill ranks in Concentration.

The PHB2 has a Battle Dancer, which gives a bonus to hit whenever you move and attack while singing. I can see it being useful for a bit more martial bard, especially one with Scout levels. Lyric Spell (Complete Adventurer) is a good one to pick up if you find you're not using all of your daily songs, as is Metamagic Song (Races of Stone). The former allows you to transform Bardic Music uses into spell slots, and the latter allows you to pay for metamagic slots with bardic music abilities. Complete Mage also has Captivating Melody for using music to increase Illusion/Enchantment DCs.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 05:53 PM
Also, one of the feats allows cha to attack, someone wrote. Interesting, Elan likely wasted a level on dashing swordsman (Though a serious dashing swordsman would rock more than anyone who can play Bark at The Moon and Paradise City).

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 05:55 PM
One of the things I like is the massive potential to turn enemies into allies rather than just killing them. Fascinate, hit them with Suggestion (which is free) until it sticks, then do the "why not join us so we can go loot treasure jointly?" routine, and you have a new temporary companion. Then take some more time with Diplomacy cheese and maybe Modify Memory if needed (just say "I need to buff you" -- Bluff check -- to get a no-save success), and before you know it, you have an adoring new permanent friend.

Batman McWizard can do that, too, with Dominate Monster (after all, the wizard can do anything), but that's a spell that has to be periodically renewed and can actually be broken. Making an NPC your genuine friend is even better and free once you pull it off. It's like getting the benefits of the Leadership feat over and over again.

Edit: The biggest flaw I see in this strategy is that it might infuriate your fellow party members if you turn every encounter into "the bard wants more followers." :smalltongue:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 06:00 PM
The bard has suddenly turned into Hulk: "Bard wants more followers!"

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 06:10 PM
The bard has suddenly turned into Hulk: "Bard wants more followers!"

You know, the Hulk would make a fantastic follower ... :smalltongue:

"Hulk sweetie, go smash that BBEG for me while I shop for a new outfit."

"HULK SMASH!"

"Good boy."

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 06:32 PM
Following that line of thoughts, why HULK SMASH! Take GAMMA WAVE!

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 06:55 PM
And as cheesy as the "turn my enemies into followers" tactic may seem, if I can turn a bard into a character the GM feels the need to "reign in" because she's getting "too powerful," then I've basically already won at 3.5e D&D, haven't I? :smallbiggrin:

I so want to try this now! :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-09-29, 07:44 PM
Improved initiative?
Spell focus: enchantment?

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 07:56 PM
I'd honestly consider asking the GM at the outset whether Celerity will be allowed in the game.

If so, I think, personally, I'd buy up Improved Initiative (I'd get that anyway), Improved Counterspell and Reactive Counterspell ... just to counter Celerity/Time Stop cheese. That combination is so brokenly good, I wouldn't mind burning two feats to be able to answer it.

What school is Celerity, anyway?

wowy319
2007-09-29, 09:10 PM
Must have bard feats... well, depending on teh situation, go with requiem (depending on the setting being undead-heavy or not). Metamagic Song (RoS) is decent as well, what with the ability to use something like empower spell on Greater Shout legally. And, Lyric spell in combination with extra music is nice, too.

That's my two cents; take it or leave it.

Thane
2007-09-29, 09:47 PM
You need to house rule battledancer to make it a useful feat.

Battledancer as RAW is a total piece of crap.

Why? Because the +2 bonus to hit it grants is a morale bonus. The bonus to hit from inspire courage bardsong is also a morale bonus, and morale bonuses do not stack.

I don't know how the editors missed that one, but they did, and that's why I recommend acrobatic strike as a good attack-bonus-boosting feat.

As for Otto's... I'm not high enough to be castin it yet :) And my tumble is high enough that I can generally maneuver out of ATOO range if I have to cast somethin anyways (so I still don't bother with concentration skill).

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 09:51 PM
You need to house rule battledancer to make it a useful feat.

Battledancer as RAW is a total piece of crap.

Why? Because the +2 bonus to hit it grants is a morale bonus. The bonus to hit from inspire courage bardsong is also a morale bonus, and morale bonuses do not stack.

I don't know how the editors missed that one, but they did, and that's why I recommend acrobatic strike as a good attack-bonus-boosting feat.

As for Otto's... I'm not high enough to be castin it yet :) And my tumble is high enough that I can generally maneuver out of ATOO range if I have to cast somethin anyways (so I still don't bother with concentration skill).

But Concentration + Mobile Spellcasting means you can take a double move on the same round that you cast. Throw in Boots of Speed, and you can potentially race 120 feet across the battlefield to tap some poor fool with Otto's Instagib -- I mean, Irresistible Dance. ;)

BardicDuelist
2007-09-29, 10:47 PM
Not necessairly "must have" but really good: Doomspeek from Champions of Ruin. Target makes a will save (10+character level+cha modifier) or takes -10 to attack rolls, skill checks, saves, and ability checks for one round. Uses one daily use of bardic music. The best part is it isn't mind affecting for some reason.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-29, 11:57 PM
Not necessairly "must have" but really good: Doomspeek from Champions of Ruin. Target makes a will save (10+character level+cha modifier) or takes -10 to attack rolls, skill checks, saves, and ability checks for one round. Uses one daily use of bardic music. The best part is it isn't mind affecting for some reason.

One round, huh?

What kind of action is it to do it?

If it's a swift action, that's just wrong. ;)

serow
2007-09-30, 12:22 AM
Personally, I like Requiem, Green Ear and that bardic music feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that gives more use to your bardic music.

Requiem - affect Undead
Green Ear - affect Plants
that feat - Wild Empathy

But that's because I like my bards with a "musical" focus.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-30, 12:27 AM
Personally, I like Requiem, Green Ear and that bardic music feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that gives more use to your bardic music.

Requiem - affect Undead
Green Ear - affect Plants
that feat - Wild Empathy

But that's because I like my bards with a "musical" focus.

There's a feat that lets you get UNDEAD with your music?

Oh, me likely. :smalltongue:

Edit: But a quick Web search revealed that as a Song & Silence feat. Is there a 3.5e version of it ...? Because that would be SOOO good to have.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-30, 09:10 AM
There's a feat that lets you get UNDEAD with your music?

Oh, me likely. :smalltongue:

Edit: But a quick Web search revealed that as a Song & Silence feat. Is there a 3.5e version of it ...? Because that would be SOOO good to have.

Requiem is in Libris Mortis...though I think that is still 3.0. Remember that if somthing from 3.0 isn't updated, it is considered RAW for 3.x

Zincorium
2007-09-30, 09:27 AM
Requiem is in Libris Mortis...though I think that is still 3.0. Remember that if somthing from 3.0 isn't updated, it is considered RAW for 3.x

Libris mortis is 3.5 in any case. Sometimes it's hard to tell, but if the credits page says "this product uses material from the 3.5 revision" you can be fairly sure.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-30, 11:33 AM
Libris mortis is 3.5 in any case. Sometimes it's hard to tell, but if the credits page says "this product uses material from the 3.5 revision" you can be fairly sure.

Ok, didn't have a copy on hand, so I wasn't sure.

Also, isn't there a feat that let's you affect vermin with your music? Pied-pierishness is fun to try and pull off.

Enlong
2007-09-30, 01:37 PM
And as cheesy as the "turn my enemies into followers" tactic may seem, if I can turn a bard into a character the GM feels the need to "reign in" because she's getting "too powerful," then I've basically already won at 3.5e D&D, haven't I? :smallbiggrin:

I so want to try this now! :smalltongue:No, you've won if you can do that with a Monk.:smallbiggrin:

BardicDuelist
2007-09-30, 01:55 PM
No, you've won if you can do that with a Monk.:smallbiggrin:

Diplomacy is a monk class skill. Monks can take leadership. You can do that with a monk.

Enlong
2007-09-30, 01:58 PM
Diplomacy is a monk class skill. Monks can take leadership. You can do that with a monk.

Naw, I'm saying you've won if you can make your Monk powerful enough that the DM has to rein him in, not if you can make a bunch of followers.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-30, 02:17 PM
Naw, I'm saying you've won if you can make your Monk powerful enough that the DM has to rein him in, not if you can make a bunch of followers.

Ah. My mistake. Still, with a strict RAW Diplomacy, you could make a monk that the DM feels he needs to rein in. Not really what a monk was for, but yeah.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-30, 02:21 PM
Diplomacy is a monk class skill. Monks can take leadership. You can do that with a monk.

Not to the same extent. A monk can abuse Diplomacy, yes, but bards can abuse Diplomacy and then also use one of the most powerful spells in the game (Otto's Irresistible Dance) along with a number of other useful gems (if you choose intelligently), impose an obnoxious "Fascinate" Will save even Batman McWizard can't pull off just by dancing or singing or whatever, follow that up with free Suggestion attempts that won't even spoil the Fascinate effect if they fail, buff the party again just by singing or whatever, and eventually basically know everything (bardic knowledge) just because they're bards.

Personally, I think bards are much stronger than they're given credit for being, really. It's just that people try to play them like they're fighters, which they aren't. In melee combat, they're basically rogues who can't sneak attack!

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-30, 02:23 PM
But Monkey the Diplomat, who treats Charisma as a primary stat and just uses monk speed to run from any encounter that can't be talked out of, would be kind of funny. :smalltongue:

BardicDuelist
2007-09-30, 02:26 PM
Not to the same extent. A monk can abuse Diplomacy, yes, but bards can abuse Diplomacy and then also use one of the most powerful spells in the game (Otto's Irresistible Dance) along with a number of other useful gems (if you choose intelligently), impose an obnoxious "Fascinate" Will save even Batman McWizard can't pull off just by dancing or singing or whatever, follow that up with free Suggestion attempts that won't even spoil the Fascinate effect if they fail, buff the party again just by singing or whatever, and eventually basically know everything (bardic knowledge) just because they're bards.

Personally, I think bards are much stronger than they're given credit for being, really. It's just that people try to play them like they're fighters, which they aren't. In melee combat, they're basically rogues who can't sneak attack!

I don't disagree at all. Just wanted to say that you can break the game with a monk. Bards are my Favorite class (with Factotum coming in a close second and rogue rounding out the top three). My DM has actually said that he prefers me play a wizard (even a batman wizard) than a bard, because at least he knows what the wizard is capable of, while a bard who can strike a deal with anyone has infinite resources at his disposal.