How do competent people kill themselves accidentally ?

[Grim Reader]

So thinking about running a short campaign...

Consider a small task force of competent to exceptionally competent soldiers/special forces. Navy Seals, SAS, your choice really. But with some contempt for roleplaying and roleplayers.

They are incarnated into midlevel (7 - 8th level) D&D characters, with the PCs along as civilian specialists. And they manage to get themselves killed through one or more mistakes, leaving the PCs to have to carry on the mission.

What kind of lethal mistakes could highly competent soldiers with no knowledge of D&D make when inserted into a D&D world ?

[Eldariel]

...well, they could just trigger a magic trap and explode or awaken a Balor or something like that. It's not like they have the means to detect magic traps nor knowledge that such things could concievably exist. Gate trap summons Balor, Balor yawns a Blasphemy and they all die, Balor goes back to doing its thing.

[DeTess]

So thinking about running a short campaign...

Consider a small task force of competent to exceptionally competent soldiers/special forces. Navy Seals, SAS, your choice really. But with some contempt for roleplaying and roleplayers.

They are incarnated into midlevel (7 - 8th level) D&D characters, with the PCs along as civilian specialists. And they manage to get themselves killed through one or more mistakes, leaving the PCs to have to carry on the mission.

What kind of lethal mistakes could highly competent soldiers with no knowledge of D&D make when inserted into a D&D world ?

That's an easy one, actually. Hitpoints. Your competent soldiers are used to incredibly lethal combat, so they would try to take on a situation with superior tactics (like ambushing a large group of orcs or whatever), that they really can't take, because the enemies that they expect to drop with a single well-placed shot just continue fighting because they only lost a couple of HP.

Alternatively, something with resistance or even immunity to most non-magic attacks. They wouldn't know to expect a troll to get back up after being put down with something that doesn't do fire or acid damage, or a creature with DR to just shrug off heavy blows.

[zlefin]

why would highly competent soldiers be sent into a DnD world (how is that even possible?) without being thoroughly briefed on the parameters of that world? and why would the PCs have any knowledge of those parameters to enable them to do any better?

why have them be killed off due to mistakes/accidents rather than just being beaten, but enabling the civilians to escape?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader
They are incarnated into midlevel (7 - 8th level) D&D characters….

Not quite sure how you’re approaching this. Are they aware that they’re now characters in a game?

If not--or if that’s not the angle you’re taking--are they aware that they’re 21st-century soldiers somehow transported into another world? Or have they been switched between worlds with no memory of their prior lives?

In other words, is this a modern take on Three Hearts and Three Lions, or something more amnesiac?


Originally Posted by Grim Reader
What kind of lethal mistakes could highly competent soldiers with no knowledge of D&D make when inserted into a D&D world ?

First and foremost, not recognizing that magic is a potentially deadly aspect of the world they’re now in. They wouldn’t necessarily know that a scrawny creature mumbling and twitching its hands is actually an orc shaman about to cast Creeping Cold.

Also, not recognizing that many of the myths and stories they might have heard and laughed off (werewolves, ghosts, vampires, etc.) are all too real in this new world, and with properties that might not match up to what they heard in our world. For instance, crossing two candlesticks might fend off a vampire in stories from our world (or two adamantium claws, when Wolverine came across Dracula back in the day) but might not work so well in the Forgotten Realms.

(Actually, it didn’t work so well for Wolvie either….)


Originally Posted by Grim Reader
But with some contempt for roleplaying and roleplayers.

This is pretty much a given for these people, but why is it relevant here? Will they be aware that they’ve been drawn into the sort of game they used to beat up nerds for playing in high school?

[Grim Reader]

That's an easy one, actually. Hitpoints. Your competent soldiers are used to incredibly lethal combat, so they would try to take on a situation with superior tactics (like ambushing a large group of orcs or whatever), that they really can't take, because the enemies that they expect to drop with a single well-placed shot just continue fighting because they only lost a couple of HP.

Alternatively, something with resistance or even immunity to most non-magic attacks. They wouldn't know to expect a troll to get back up after being put down with something that doesn't do fire or acid damage, or a creature with DR to just shrug off heavy blows.

I really, really like these ones!


why would highly competent soldiers be sent into a DnD world (how is that even possible?) without being thoroughly briefed on the parameters of that world? and why would the PCs have any knowledge of those parameters to enable them to do any better?

The first one is a longer background story. Time-critical mission, the soldiers are not completely personality-suited for the idea that nerd stuff is suddenly important to know.

My players and I are all grognards who remember the 80s and that type of person well. I am confident in my ability to have the players shiver in sadistic glee as things go badly for those people.


why have them be killed off due to mistakes/accidents rather than just being beaten, but enabling the civilians to escape?

Well, the PCs aren't just going to be spectators as the NPCs shine. They need to take over the critical mission. Think Ripley and the marines.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader
My players and I are all grognards who remember the 80s and that type of person well. I am confident in my ability to have the players shiver in sadistic glee as things go badly for those people.

I don't have to go that far back to remember that type; I've deal with them frequently over the past few years. I won't ever forget the look of ultramasculine contempt that one of them gave me simply because I was writing in a notebook.


Originally Posted by Grim Reader
Well, the PCs aren't just going to be spectators as the NPCs shine. They need to take over the critical mission.

So, basically Stargate?

[Grim Reader]

Not quite sure how you’re approaching this. Are they aware that they’re now characters in a game?

If not--or if that’s not the angle you’re taking--are they aware that they’re 21st-century soldiers somehow transported into another world? Or have they been switched between worlds with no memory of their prior lives?

Well, the background is that there is a coup in progress. But one with an unusual element. The President has been kidnapped into another world. Through a very popular total-immersion game thats suddelny turned out to be rather more than anyone realized. The VP and elements of the cabinet, who are not nice people, are moving to scapegoat, arrest and lock things up so no-one comes back.

We need the guy back now! But the rigs necessary to enter are very limited in number, not everyone fits them (theres technobabble limits on who can use them) and time is running out. Get a team of competent SEALs, and anyone here who knows anything about that **** in there. Intern, high school class on a tour, pizza delivery girl -American democracy is at stake here!

Time runs differently inside the game. One of the secrets they don't know is that its not a game, its a parallel reality.

[Grim Reader]

I don't have to go that far back to remember that type; I've deal with them frequently over the past few years. I won't ever forget the look of ultramasculine contempt that one of them gave me simply because I was writing in a notebook.

And they are going to die horribly because of that. :smallsmile:

[Palanan]

I want your campaign journal for those scenes. :smalltongue:



So, I assume the PCs are going to be the high school kids, the delivery girl, etc.? So they'll be as non-native to the parallel world as the military types?

[Grim Reader]

I want your campaign journal for those scenes. :smalltongue:



So, I assume the PCs are going to be the high school kids, the delivery girl, etc.? So they'll be as non-native to the parallel world as the military types?

Yes, but the parallel world is based on D&D. Its got to do with a version of the observer effect, with some inspiration from Pratt and deCamps Enchanter books. As more and more people play the VR game, and the VR gets better and better they increasingly "tune in" to a matching parallel world.

Theres tipping points that let creatures from the world communicate and plan with people from ours, and another tipping point when people just end up more in tune with the other world than ours.

Lots of people are lost in there, but the authorities are focused on the president. Who was encouraged by the VP to visit the game company and press flesh, kiss babies and politely try the new rig at the right time.

So the world is an incredibly good match for a D&D world, and people with D&D knowledge will find it very relevant.

[Palanan]

Okay, interesting. If you haven’t thought of this already, I would recommend some sort of “parallel sensitivity index” which indicates compatibility with the process of transferring to the other world. A high index means the person is most likely to survive the process and function on the other side.

Some of the SEALs will have a high index, others will be low, so it’ll be a rough ride and some of them won’t make it across with their higher brain functions intact. The government (or whoever is sending them across) can put gamma ray detectors on the roof of the White House, rough out a tracking algorithm, etc., to detect the highest-index individuals within a five-mile radius of the National Mall.

These people can be grabbed by the Secret Service (or whoever’s trying to run the rescue op) and shanghaied into the mission as useful bodies—grunts, human shields, whatever. It’s likely that the parallel sensitivity index also tracks facility with the immersion game, so people with a high PSI will probably already have experience with the technology, if not expertise and/or obsession.

So it’s a question of scanning for the highest-PSI individuals in D.C., bringing them in and doing a very brief selection process to see who’s most familiar with the game and its gear. And then throwing them across worlds with the soon-to-be-grinderized elite soldiers.

[Godskook]

How? Exceedingly easily. Competent people come in "types", from the intellectual(Parson from Erfworld) to the ingrained(Tyler1, the League/DotA streamer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQtMJRr6HIc).

The more intellectual variety are super cautious, but the ingrained competent people are running on truckloads of assumptions and adaption. The latter group, when thrown sufficiently far out of their element, will resemble complete morons in their approach to the situation, as behaviors that were once appropriate fail them, constantly.

So throw these modern-day heroes into situations that defy their experience. Trolls(they won't know to dispose of the body), wights(they won't know to dispose of the bodies), black puddings(particularly nasty against guns, as the soldiers will stop shooting during the sweet spot when it has split into 20-ish pieces) and succubus(another nasty one for modern soldiers from a world where promiscuity doesn't get you murdered) all spring to mind as threats that would have strong and unique advantages against modern non-nerd soldiers.

[Grim Reader]

Okay, interesting. If you haven’t thought of this already, I would recommend some sort of “parallel sensitivity index” which indicates compatibility with the process of transferring to the other world. A high index means the person is most likely to survive the process and function on the other side.

Some of the SEALs will have a high index, others will be low, so it’ll be a rough ride and some of them won’t make it across with their higher brain functions intact. The government (or whoever is sending them across) can put gamma ray detectors on the roof of the White House, rough out a tracking algorithm, etc., to detect the highest-index individuals within a five-mile radius of the National Mall.

These people can be grabbed by the Secret Service (or whoever’s trying to run the rescue op) and shanghaied into the mission as useful bodies—grunts, human shields, whatever. It’s likely that the parallel sensitivity index also tracks facility with the immersion game, so people with a high PSI will probably already have experience with the technology, if not expertise and/or obsession.

So it’s a question of scanning for the highest-PSI individuals in D.C., bringing them in and doing a very brief selection process to see who’s most familiar with the game and its gear. And then throwing them across worlds with the soon-to-be-grinderized elite soldiers.


I like the idea of some of the SEALS not making it across due to low index:) I figure the Index is a factor of something the military tests for, so its already in a database. Who is near enough and good enough with a high D&Dndex... Military people likely to survive the transition.

Maybe that means they can't fill all the rigs with special forces with a good chance of making it over. But they got the records of the company right there, so just check who plays it a lot and cross reference with Google for who is close. One in the pizza shop, one in high school, one just sent off to juvie...

[Quertus]

Yeah, um... Why the techno babble? Why not just "these are the best, most loyal a) Marines, and b) subject matter experts that we could find in, you know, 15 minutes (because we were afraid that the VP would murder us all if we waited for reinforcements)"?

As an added bonus, maybe they're trying to trick the VP into believing that they are waiting to launch the rescue operation until reinforcements arrive - which sets the (incorrect) expected timeframe for the mission.

As to what might kill the idiots - without killing the PCs, and without it being the PCs' fault, that is a mistake that a trained soldier might actually make? Hmmm...

Getting too close to "dead" regenerators would be nice, but hard for the PCs not to warn them.

Getting too close to a 12-headed pyro-Hydra could certainly do the trick.

A Deck of Many Things tends to end campaigns.

In 2e, the answer would be "drinking the water"

What else is classic? Hmmm... Not closing your eyes to a Medusa. Insulting something outside your weight class. Assuming everything is a "level-appropriate challenge". Falling for a doppelganger. Not checking for traps?

[Quellian-dyrae]

I'd suggest a vampire. Vampires are fairly well-known fictional creatures even outside of D&D circles, but the thing is, practically every fiction that includes vampires has different rules for them (and some have multiple distinct sets). And D&D's vampires are actually on the higher end of the power curve. So the soldiers could even think themselves prepared to deal with the supernatural stuff because "everybody knows about vampires", but still find themselves woefully unprepared for the tricks that D&D vamps bring to the table. DR, Fast Healing, and immunity to critical hits will allow it to weather massive amounts of punishment from firearms. Hide/Move Silently bonuses, summons, and Gaseous Form allow it to control the engagement. And mundane modern soldiers will be utterly unprepared for the horror that is at-will Dominate Person - especially when the people being dominated are your fellow highly skilled, extremely-well-armed soldiers. Bonus points if they stake it, figure it dead, and then it turns out one of the soldiers was dominated and waits for everyone to let their guard down before removing the stake.

However, to someone who actually knows what they're dealing with, vampires have a ton of weaknesses to exploit. The PCs should be able to take it out if they play smart and are ruthless about exploiting its vulnerabilities - especially if the soldiers kinda get dropped in when the vampire has the advantage (i.e. at night), but the PCs are able to retreat, prepare, and attack on their terms.

[Thedez]

I'd actually say basic differences in physics. Make a situation where it looks exceptionally dangerous for the party to stay. There's a bunch of goblins or something, or maybe they've shot an aforementioned black pudding to pieces, but they're low on ammo. They have a potential avenue of escape--a ridge, going down far enough that it wouldn't kill you, but it might break some limbs. The SF was in the process of securing the route, but the black pudding attacked. The SF, even after fighting the black pudding, deems jumping off to be too dangerous an option, since it'd likely just leave them put of ammo and crippled on top of it. The players, panicking, do it anyway. The players bones don't break, because D&D only breaks bones for narrative reasons, while the SF is overwhelmed, and the surviving members jump off and die--because HP is arbitrary, and they took too much damage.

[zlefin]

I really, really like these ones!



The first one is a longer background story. Time-critical mission, the soldiers are not completely personality-suited for the idea that nerd stuff is suddenly important to know.

My players and I are all grognards who remember the 80s and that type of person well. I am confident in my ability to have the players shiver in sadistic glee as things go badly for those people.



Well, the PCs aren't just going to be spectators as the NPCs shine. They need to take over the critical mission. Think Ripley and the marines.
ah, so more about revenge fantasy than verisimilitude; and because the mission knowledge is limited by the coup cabal, so they aren't going in with the full proper knowledge they should be.

ofc these days it'd be hard to find people unaware of a situation like you describe with the other world, given how many times it's been done :P


it's not unusual for a civilian contractor to be someone who's job in a combat situation is to stay hidden and wait for the soldiers to care of the combat; and/or much like an analyst to be providing supporting information.

[Elkad]

Invisibility (nobody can hide in an open room).

Immunity to certain damage types.

Infiltration. When the guy on watch, who you've trusted for years, starts killing the party in their sleep, what do you do?
Is he dominated? A Doppleganger?

Anything that gets back up. Including your own party members if you are talking about wights.
I suspect that they would go for overkill* after the first couple times it happened. Everything (including your fallen comrades) gets beheaded, staked, and cremated. Which means a lot of time wasted burning giants. And occasionally still won't work.


*There is no "overkill". Only "Open fire!" and "Reloading!"

[Biolink22]

This is pretty much a given for these people, but why is it relevant here? Will they be aware that they’ve been drawn into the sort of game they used to beat up nerds for playing in high school?

It's really not a given, some of the nerdiest people I know are operators/special forces individuals I worked with when I was in the military. Don't judge a book by it's cover, or the nerd by his grizzled muscular shell.

[BowStreetRunner]

Honestly, it could be even a very small thing. When a large number of family and friends attending my brother's bachelor party went to play paintball for the first time, the first three taken out in the first round of the game were the only three of us with military training. Our little 'after action review' eventually led us to realize that the ballistic properties of paintballs have more in common with baseballs than bullets and we were operating using tactics that work fine when bullets are concerned but got us all hit with paintballs.

While we did adjust and even outperformed the others in the later rounds once we'd adapted to the 'new rules', if the learning curve had been truly lethal, we wouldn't have survived long enough to make that adjustment. That is definitely the sort of thing that could get these soldiers killed.

Anything that players often comment doesn't quite feel like it does a good job of representing real-life combat would be a potential killer here. Things like wounded characters continuing to fight at full strength until they reach 0 and become disabled would definitely qualify. Extraordinary abilities like Evasion might certainly be a surprise. Supernatural & Spell-Like abilities as well as spells and magic items would most likely catch them off guard.

As for your method of having the elite soldiers bite it while the PCs have to take over - I ran a Cyberpunk game with an intro that was similar. The PCs were fighting alongside a bunch of elite NPCs and for the first half of the combat the PCs contributed very little and were completely overshadowed by the NPCS. Then when an enemy group came in and totally hosed the NPCs the PCs were in shock and awe - and pretty much got the heck out of there. It hammered home to a bunch of players used to always just charging in and never backing down that this campaign they would need to use their heads. They became a lot more cautious and it took a while to build up their confidence enough to take on more than minor challenges. If that is the goal you are looking for, then this may work out well. However, if you don't want the PCs to simply flee when the elites go down and start being super cautious, you may need to put some effort into making the PCs outperform the elite soldiers in that first combat. At least that is my take based on a similar experience.

[Anthrowhale]

Looking at the schools of magic, Illusion, Enchantment, Conjuration(Teleportation), and Divination are all essentially nonexistent. These are each tactically radical.

Illusion: Your senses lie.
Enchantment: The goblin sorcerer you captured is in control after a few minutes using Still Silent Charm Person.
Conjuration(Teleportation): Stabbed while going to the bathroom.
Divination: The enemy is never surprised and you are always surprised.

[Elkad]

Divination: The enemy is never surprised and you are always surprised.

That only works once. Then you assume every enemy has audio bugs on you, motion detectors, camera drones with live feeds, radar, seismic sensors, thermal vision, light-amplification, and every other gizmo our elite units have.

Combining it with teleport for scry&die? That one is harder to stop. You can NEVER go off duty, at least not your whole team.

[Telonius]

It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life.

The group doesn't need to make any mistakes. All it has to do is go up against a foe it has not hope of defeating.

Over-estimating your own strength (or under-estimating the enemy's) is a classic error that anyone with incomplete information can make.

[Psyren]

The vibe I'm getting reading this is closer to that Adam Sandler movie Pixels; i.e. the gamers succeed where the military doesn't, due to a combination of skill at the game itself, and that more general gaming genre-savviness/cultural awareness that gamers tend to pick up.

Where that movie fell flat (well, one of many places it fell flat), and where this could also, is by painting the military guys as the cliché Jocks who beat up the Nerds and take their Lunch Money, with the entire story becoming less about deconstruction through clever genre-savviness, and more of a cheap revenge fantasy. As others have said in the thread, this wouldn't work so well because there are D&D lovers in all walks of life, including the armed forces.

If you want your "military" folks to be less sympathetic and their contempt for nerdy pursuits to be more genuine, I would recommend not making them true military at all, but instead some kind of private security force or PMC. Shifting their motivations from patriotism to greed and profit makes for much better villainy, and you run less risk of painting someone's friends or family with a broad brush that way.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Lots of good ideas; I'll throw in my two cents. Look up some actual military tactics, and then think of what magic, creatures, or simple mechanics would change them from adaptive to maladaptive (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy).

As an example, John Ringo's Under A Graveyard Sky series has a section where a group of rescued troops are being a real pain, insisting on sticking to the book rather than trusting the seasoned zombie fighters. For instance, there are a lot of assumptions that go into their standard protocol for breaching a door (approach with stealth, lob in a grenade, and then charge in fast to mop up the disorientated and demoralized survivors). Against the rabies zombies of the series, this is a terrible idea. If you go in stealthy, the zombies will be sleeping scattered throughout the room, so the grenade and initial charge will only kill a relative handful. Against humans, that wouldn't be a problem, but zombies have far superior numbers and no morale to break, so what this tactic actually ensures is that in a big room you are now surrounded hordes of the not-technically-undead. (Incidentally, the zombie-slayer veterans' tactic is to bang hard on the door until all the zombies are awake, then drop a grenade or two and close the door on the charging zombies; any zombies that survive are too aggressive/stupid to play dead and likely injured, and can be easily finished off with strategic headshots or even knives).

That's just a specific example (and a shameless plug for a series I like), but I think it demonstrates the principle well. Military tactics have been honed for decades and in cases centuries for use against intelligent foes with human tactics and capabilities. Relying on the element of surprise will fail against a creature with enough HP/defenses to shrug off that initial attack and retaliate. The cover of darkness and/or flashbangs will fail against special vision types (or faerie fire). A sniper is going to have a real bad day against someone who can teleport, especially if they leave a distracting illusion behind (like the warlock invocation Get Out of Dodge). Any attempt to break the morale of an undead horde is doomed to failure. Inside a building/dungeon would typically be safe from artillery and other explosions (barring mines), making it advantageous to bunch up and cover each other better... but not against a caster. Traditional lines of sight/firing sectors fail against darkness, invisibility, and teleportation again.

I just know I'll think of like 5 more examples later, but for now I'm just gonna post.

[Malphegor]

why would highly competent soldiers be sent into a DnD world (how is that even possible?) without being thoroughly briefed on the parameters of that world? and why would the PCs have any knowledge of those parameters to enable them to do any better?

why have them be killed off due to mistakes/accidents rather than just being beaten, but enabling the civilians to escape?

"It's a dungeons and dragons ride!" was the excuse the old cartoon had to take the kids from a fairground to a world of (presumably at the time Oerth) D&D. Maybe there's just random portals in our world (I think with the semi-official ending to the cartoon it was implied the Dungeon Master brought the kids in himself to save his son by making them heroes), and these soldiers are going through unknown territory through a spooky place and bam they suddenly find themselves in a fantasy world.

Main thought is that they're without their normal supplies, in a strange place, without support.

First issue- stress. When even the people are alien, it's going to be ridiculously stressful. SEAL or no, homesickness is nothing compared to worldsickness, not knowing if you'll ever go home, not due to death or anything, but because you're in an alien world with alien customs and it feels like the universe is having a joke at your expense.


Second issue- supplies. While I don't doubt they could primitive headed screwheads the locals into producing modern weapons, ingraining themselves in a society would be tricky (and generally ill advised for modern military units to make first contact with an alien civilisation without support) and it takes time to build up assembly lines for bullets.

Third issue- Random encounters. When a wolf works by HP rather than flesh, it's suddenly able to tank bullets. A poor 'roll' makes what seems like a animal something horrifically dangerous because nothing makes sense. Combat in general is going to be a huge culture shock to them. (things working by dice rolls exists as a theory in-universe since Fatespinners exist, so I guess trained soldiers are going to notice that 1 in 20 their shots don't hit)