Magic Item Knowledge

[GuestEleven]

Hey guys, magic items have been sparking some controversy at my table lately. Something came up specifically that has caught my interest. How does PCs come into knowledge of weapon enchantments or all of the wondrous items that exist? Mostly this speaks from the perspective of commissioning/crafting magic items and not loot in a dungeon. For instance, how would a player know to ask a great wizard for the Wounding property on their weapon, or how would my craftsman know to create something like Demonspike Pauldrons?

Should non-unique magic items be pretty much common knowledge for adventurers in a higher magic setting or should people be making knowledge checks to see if they'd even know of the existence of these items? Maybe players should try to explain what they want in RP, which is really just meta-gaming due to it's just the player asking for what they want. I was wondering how you guys handled this because I haven't found any entries talking about player knowledge of magical items.

[Duke of Urrel]

When it comes to crafting an item, I think a PC should usually be aware of the existence of any kind of magic item that they are able to craft. If the dungeon master believes knowing how to make a particular item should be particularly obscure Knowledge, then Knowledge of Arcana should be the skill that's needed. If nobody in the party has Knowledge of Arcana, then perhaps a knowledgeable NPC could be consulted.

When it comes to commissioning an item, the challenge is how to find a magical artisan who is capable of making it. Don't forget good-old Gather Information skill! This skill or perhaps Local Knowledge can be used to find a person who can do what you need to have done. (Of course, the person you're looking for may be far enough away for the dungeon master to subject you to a wayfaring adventure.) Gather Information skill or Local Knowledge can also be used to locate a sage with Knowledge of Arcana. Bardic Lore or the Lore of a Loremaster might also be useful in either locating someone or informing you about "legendary" items.

Post-Script: There are easy ways to provide in-game reasons why a PC with no Knowledge of Arcana should suddenly develop a desire for a rare and wonderful magic weapon that they can't possibly know the existence of. Maybe the PC was in a tavern the other night and heard a drunken old dwarf babbling about a particular wondrous weapon and was fascinated by his tale, even though the other patrons, including a few dwarves, all agreed that the old drunk was crazy. Of course, the Law of Fun decrees that if you learn about an item in this way, it surely must exist and will be at least as wonderful as the old drunk said, but will be hard to find.

[Mike Miller]

The fighter doesn't have to know specifically that the Wounding property exists. He could say to the wizard...

" Hey, can you make my sword cut better? You know, make them bleed extra each time I cut them?"
Or
"Hey wizard, can you make my sword filled with electricity so that it shocks my enemies when I hit them?"
Etc

[gogogome]

I rule that you must meet the CL requirement and the spell requirement to know that you can create such an item.

For example, a person who has knowledge of an engine and wheels can figure out how to create a motorcycle without ever knowing its previous existence. Without knowledge of an engine he would not know.

[Eladrinblade]

The artisan in question could just list all the things he can make and what they do, and I would think they are aware of what they themselves can make.

[Bphill561]

The artisan in question could just list all the things he can make and what they do, and I would think they are aware of what they themselves can make.

Yeah, if you are dealing with artist that you can commission they should be hawking their wares (even trying to up sell you). If you have even been to a florist and ask for suggestions, they will very helpful even if you don't know anything about flowers.

[Mars Ultor]

I rule that you must meet the CL requirement and the spell requirement to know that you can create such an item.

The Caster Level for listed weapons is not a requirement, it's an assumption that the one listed in the book was created by a caster of that level. The DMG errata states:

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

As long as you meet the requirements that come after CL, you can create the item. The CL is now the creator's CL, or the level at which he cast the spell to enchant the item.

[Deophaun]

There should be no controversy, as the answer is however the player imagines their (the player's) desire for a particular item translated into the crafter making it. It could be that their character had learned of such through legend, or the crafter knew what the character would want through reputation, or a dozen other ways. What one player decides need not impact any other player's choice for his character in any instance. Hence, no need for controversy.

[zlefin]

PCs are literate by default; and at higher levels so many things should hvae just been handled by someone less important.
I'd normally just gloss it over, but if an explanation was wanted: catalogs.
books are cheap by the standards of magic items (iirc, not exactly sure though); so once you're rich enough that it's relevant, you simply go to an appropriate shop and look through the catalog of items that can be made. while the list of items is large; you can fit a lot of info in a book, especially if it's more of a reference.
I imagine something like the physician's desk reference, or maybe just more like a typical old mail-order catalog.

while some shops/sellers would just have a smaller catalog covering their own options; any wizard college/major library/sage would have a copy of the full catalog of everything. (it wouldn't detail how to make them ofc, just the basics of what it is, what it roughly costs, what it does, and some notes about prerequisites).

one thing the game's knowledge skills don't model well is generic adventuring knowledge which anyone picks up just from doing stuff.

I think it's reasonable to assume that by the time you're at a level where it's relevant, you've at some point in time looked through such a catalog.

[Bronk]

I like the catalog idea!

I also think bards, NPC experts, or anyone with a relevant knowledge skill would be able to tell you. Knowledge skills can provide detailed information about famous individuals, and Bards especially - with their bardic knowledge ability and propensity to share in taverns - would be spreading the knowledge around.

Plus, at least in a lot of pre-existing game worlds, there haven't been any really new types of magic items for quiet some time.

[The Kool]

The fighter doesn't have to know specifically that the Wounding property exists. He could say to the wizard...

" Hey, can you make my sword cut better? You know, make them bleed extra each time I cut them?"
Or
"Hey wizard, can you make my sword filled with electricity so that it shocks my enemies when I hit them?"
Etc

Pretty much this. The vast majority of adventurers won't in-game think of it as a list of Mods on their weapon.
Fighter 1: "Hey, I'd like a sword whose wounds don't heal well."
Crafter: "Yeah I can do that, I think I know just the trick."
Fighter 2: "Can you make my sword crackle with lightning?"
Crafter: "Totally can do, bro."
Fighter 1: "Hey that sounds awesome, can you do that with mine too?"
Crafter: "Hmm, making those enchantments work together is tough... I can do it, but it'll take more time and resources."

The players shortcut this, because the rules give us handy distinct labels for these effects that we know can be done, and the values of them. While they could totally ask for something completely off the rails, they can also ask for something they've seen before, or something the crafter suggested, or just something cliche like "wounds don't heal well" and "sword + fire". A related question worth asking, on the other hand, is whether your crafters know everything that they can (by the feat) craft. Do they need special materials? A formula? Do they need to research it? If they can't readily make most of these things, the answer is frequently going to be "shut up and go home, you're crazy" and people will stop asking and start accepting what they find in the dungeon. If they can readily make anything, then you get the modern plentiful-magic approach to weapon shopping we have at most tables.

[gogogome]

The Caster Level for listed weapons is not a requirement, it's an assumption that the one listed in the book was created by a caster of that level. The DMG errata states:

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

As long as you meet the requirements that come after CL, you can create the item. The CL is now the creator's CL, or the level at which he cast the spell to enchant the item.

I'm not 100% sure you're correct, I need to look into it myself, but if you are, then I'd say anyone who knows the prerequisites of an item knows of its existence. If your PC wants to craft that item, then it makes sense he'd try to figure out how to make such an item with everything he knows, which is why it wouldn't be a stretch to say he invents the item with his own brain.

[Âmesang]

I'd be more worried about time constraints than anything else. :smalltongue:

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/8-bit%20theater%20091128.png (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/11/28/episode-1197-magic-shop/)
Although this is why I like the magic item identifying rules found in the Magic Item/Rules Compendium, since it gives a variety of means to accomplish the task (my favorite being to combine the Spellcraft skill with [a permanent/continuous] detect magic or arcane sight).

[The Kool]

Although this is why I like the magic item identifying rules found in the Magic Item/Rules Compendium, since it gives a variety of means to accomplish the task (my favorite being to combine the Spellcraft skill with [a permanent/continuous] detect magic or arcane sight).

I'm not particularly fond of that, I find that if you allow players a way to identify an item outside of the Identify spell or actually testing it themselves, you might as well write the Identify spell out of the game. Which some people might like, but I enjoy the mystique of figuring out what something does.

[Âmesang]

Well I think there's a bit of a trade-off: identify is still the easiest method, especially for low-level characters—it's just "expensive" due to the required time and material component. Detect magic allows you to identify a magic item, but the required Spellcraft DC would be 25 + ½ CL—not the most difficult to optimize, but a bit of a reach for your average caster till mid-to-high levels, at least if you want to identify items consistently (take 10).

(Though by the time you can make arcane sight permanent I figure quick-and-easy magic item identification should be expected.)

[RNightstalker]

It depends on the amount of RP you want to do at the table. Some groups find it easier to just spend their gold during the week on their own time so they don't "waste" time in Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe. But there are legends of the villainous dark lord that had a knack for decapitating people (read: used a vorpal sword), the swordmaster that always cut deep (because his weapons were keen) etc. In the next game I start up, I'd like to not limit any official material, but to incorporate desired magic items, class progressions into the RP; in essence, I want the character to learn what the player knows, because player knowledge has a tendency to get out of hand if not properly addressed.