Kensei vs Open Hand Monk

[KyleG]

So the guides are great, fantastic even, but many haven't been updated for sometime with races and classes that are no longer UA. Plus the guide to one subclass can be vastly different to another and that is where we begin this thread.

To give you a rundown of the character I want to play, he is a Envoy warforged who is very curious. Apt to try new things the next time he sets out, from just using his fist/kicks or switching up with his staff.On our last mission he saw someone using a javelin and I intend for him to be carrying one into this next adventure to try it out, but who knows if weapons or fists will end up being his thing.
He is going to be the one who may well ask to survey the enemy on his turn to assess the threat level/who the leader is/or the weakest link before taking action. Also equally likely to tell a target to cease his attack or their will be consequences up (end of their turn sort of question, ready to act accordingly on his own). As such he would prefer not to engage unless he or others are in danger. He lacks a fear response at least from a roleplaying point of view opening doors to see what the scraping noise and until a trap was triggered went to open doors without any other thought, but he learns quickly and no longer does such.

So this is him up to level 2 and with level 3 looming I will need to choose a subclass and I've settled on these two. I am allowed to tweak my stats (using standard array) so I would like to know how you would build to level 6 in each of the above sub classes. Both can be played defensively it seems with shoves (open hand), or defensive weapon AC (kensei) which is where I think he lays.

He is Data meets Johnny 5/baymax meets Neo when he becomes The One.

[Foxhound438]

I mean, the real answer is shadow monk

but my bias aside, given your description I agree that both of those subclasses work on a thematic level. However, switching weapons for the sake of curiosity is actually a lot harder on a kensai, since if you didn't happen to choose the weapon you're switching to as one of your 2 or 3 kensai weapons then you're losing out on most of your subclass benefits. Moreover, if you manage to make it all the way to 11th level, open hand gets a free-cast Sanctuary every day, which would work nicely with your idea to ask enemies to disperse peacefully before attacking. I don't have any specific build advice for it though, you don't really need any feats to make an effective OH monk and you benefit more in general from boosting dex and wis.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

IMO, the one archetype that would have fit perfectly with your goal is the Tranquillity from UA. If you didn't read, maybe get the DM to consider that option.

Otherwise, as much as I love Kensei, I feel Open Hand is the best for you for three reasons.
1. Level 3: As someone that tries to limit violence (from what I understood), you could spend most time just Grappling and Shoving creatures. On that regard, the "rider on Flurry of Blows" fits perfectly.
2. Level 6: Your values means you'll probably get a few hits to you that you won't want to answer to. For that, the ability to heal self for a decent amount, while not formidable, is still useful.
3. Level 11: Sanctuary: this is certainly the one feature you'll want (hence my suggestion of UA archetype which gets it at level 3 ^^).

With that said, if you'd actually prefer Kensei's level 3 and 6 ability, another way to go is simply multiclass into Life or Order Cleric: thematically fitting, some nice extra features, and you get Bless, Command, Sanctuary and if you go higher Warding Bond to fulfill your "pragmatic pacifism". :)

[KyleG]

Hi OP!

IMO, the one archetype that would have fit perfectly with your goal is the Tranquillity from UA. If you didn't read, maybe get the DM to consider that option.

Otherwise, as much as I love Kensei, I feel Open Hand is the best for you for three reasons.
1. Level 3: As someone that tries to limit violence (from what I understood), you could spend most time just Grappling and Shoving creatures. On that regard, the "rider on Flurry of Blows" fits perfectly.
2. Level 6: Your values means you'll probably get a few hits to you that you won't want to answer to. For that, the ability to heal self for a decent amount, while not formidable, is still useful.
3. Level 11: Sanctuary: this is certainly the one feature you'll want (hence my suggestion of UA archetype which gets it at level 3 ^^).

With that said, if you'd actually prefer Kensei's level 3 and 6 ability, another way to go is simply multiclass into Life or Order Cleric: thematically fitting, some nice extra features, and you get Bless, Command, Sanctuary and if you go higher Warding Bond to fulfill your "pragmatic pacifism". :)

I see the level 3 kensei parry ability as a way to mitigate damage. I see this guy as the type to be struck at, respond with a kick/punch whack and say oi, cut it out, that have the kensei weapon effect kick in if they persist.
On the other hand shoving back as a way to say piss off does have appeal. its less overtly violent on initial contact.

No room for Tranquility unfortunately.

So do you stat kensei vs open hand differently, or basically the same. des/Wis, Con everything else.

[Foxhound438]

So do you stat kensei vs open hand differently, or basically the same. des/Wis, Con everything else.

Basically the same. I would probably take mobile on the kensai since it fits the playstyle of hit and run that I usually use on monks, but open hand gets an option to prevent reactions from an enemy hit with flurry of blows, no save, so they don't need mobile to do hit and run even against things that would succeed against the push effect. Otherwise, prioritize dex first, then wisdom, and if you have an ASI left over boost con or maybe consider a good utility feat like alert.

[Citan]

I see the level 3 kensei parry ability as a way to mitigate damage. I see this guy as the type to be struck at, respond with a kick/punch whack and say oi, cut it out, that have the kensei weapon effect kick in if they persist.
On the other hand shoving back as a way to say piss off does have appeal. its less overtly violent on initial contact.

No room for Tranquility unfortunately.

So do you stat kensei vs open hand differently, or basically the same. des/Wis, Con everything else.
I would usually do the same, but in essence it depends on your build plan.

If you go Kensei AND plan on taking a bit more hits than usual for friends, you could actually pick Magic Initiate: Druid instead and pick Shillelagh and Magic Stone, as well as Longstrider (extra speed for toughest fight of the day) or Earth Tremor (close-range prone to help allies) or Jump (actually opens new option to enter places, especially at low level) or Healing Words (emergency get-up for friend when usual healer cannot act on time). (Would be better with actual dip but it's another matter)

That way you start WIS, using bonus action mainly on attack enhancements or Dodge/Disengage/Dash, and you can max WIS earlier for both attacks and Stunning Strike.
It's probably the best option in the long run especially if you want to tank: meaning you'll use Sharpen the Blade at level 11 (which further incites you to use mainly your weapon for Attack) and use bonus action rather on Dodge.

If however, you don't plan on this particularly and are satisfied with simply Agile Parry combined with Flurry on bonus action, then pushing DEX to 18 should be your priority (because it means Unarmed Attacks are your main offense, and those can only rely on DEX whatever happens unless DM houserules a special "fist weapon"). Then push WIS to 18 for Stunning Strike. Then whatever.

Finally, if you plan on using Stunning Strike scarcely because you play sparingly in general, want to priorize other uses of Ki, or whatever other reason (like having a Warlock/Sorcerer with Hold Person/Hold Monster as regular tactic) you could even grab Magic Initiate: Sorcerer to pick Booming Blade, a utility cantrip (Friends, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, etc) and Mage Armor, and push DEX and CON instead (so starting 16/17 DEX, 16 CON, 14 WIS) so you can have a pretty decent AC quickly.

-> "In general" my default leveling (for optimized offense though, I personally dislike dumped stats but that's outside scope) that works well for all Monks is...
a) "Wood Elf" 16/16/14 (dex/wix/CON) -> Mobile -> +2 DEX -> +2 WIS -> +2 DEX -> +2 WIS
b) "Wood Elf" 17/16/14 (same) -> Mobile -> Elven Accuracy -> same.
Difference being the impact on other attributes. With b) you get dumped INT and CHA and 10 STR. With a) you can at least avoid dump in either INT or CHA.

[Man_Over_Game]

So do you stat kensei vs open hand differently, or basically the same. des/Wis, Con everything else.

Kensei has virtually no use for Wisdom, and should max out Dexterity first, as it can avoid a lot more direct combat than most Monks can (and so has less dependence on Con).

Open Hand is one of the most Wisdom-heavy builds you can go, surpassed only by Long Death and Four Elements. Pretty much every one of your Open Hand features will use your Saving Throw DC, which is determined by your Wisdom, so you want to use Dexterity and Wisdom very evenly.

As to which one you should play, I'd go with the Open Hand, as its Sanctuary benefit actually incentivizes nonviolence, where no other Monk subclass has something like that. Additionally, the higher Wisdom fits more of the "Patient Warrior" vibe.

[Pex]

Kensei has virtually no use for Wisdom, and should max out Dexterity first, as it can avoid a lot more direct combat than most Monks can (and so has less dependence on Con).

Open Hand is one of the most Wisdom-heavy builds you can go, surpassed only by Long Death and Four Elements. Pretty much every one of your Open Hand features will use your Saving Throw DC, which is determined by your Wisdom, so you want to use Dexterity and Wisdom very evenly.

As to which one you should play, I'd go with the Open Hand, as its Sanctuary benefit actually incentivizes nonviolence, where no other Monk subclass has something like that. Additionally, the higher Wisdom fits more of the "Patient Warrior" vibe.

A Kensei can stun as any other monk and can use the AC. He has need for Wisdom.

[Man_Over_Game]

A Kensei can stun as any other monk and can use the AC. He has need for Wisdom.

AC is increased with Dexterity just the same as Wisdom.

Additionally, the Kensei has more incentives to use ranged attacks than almost every other Monk subclass, and Stunning Fist isn't usable with ranged attacks.

Lastly, a higher Dexterity also means more landed hits and higher overall damage. While they will not succeed on their Stunning Blow as often as other Monks, they will get more chances to try with a higher Dexterity.



There is no incentive to prioritize Wisdom. That doesn't mean that Wisdom is useless (AC and Stunning Blows are still awesome), but you shouldn't consider Wisdom on a Kensei unless Dexterity is already maxed out (except for narrative reasons, I suppose).

In a list of best Wisdom-less Monks, Kensei is #1, followed by Drunken Master and Shadow.

[Rukelnikov]

Kensei has virtually no use for Wisdom, and should max out Dexterity first, as it can avoid a lot more direct combat than most Monks can (and so has less dependence on Con).

Im curious about this as well, why do you say they can avoid direct combat? It because you are thinking of a ranged Kensei?

[Man_Over_Game]

Im curious about this as well, why do you say they can avoid direct combat? It because you are thinking of a ranged Kensei?

A Kensei has to choose at least one ranged weapon.

They also have features that are only usable with a ranged weapon.

So while you can choose to neglect the ranged components of a Kensei, you'd be choosing to make the subclass as...less.

Similarly, consider a Barbarian who focuses on ranged combat.

Or compare the Kensei to virtually any other non-Sun Soul Monk, and it will appear very obvious that it was intended to work in ranged combat, at least for a considerable amount of time.

Rather, put the Kensei into a list of all the Monks, from Melee to Range, and see where it falls in place. Like so:


MELEE
Drunken Master/Long Death/Open Hand
Shadow
Four Elements
Kensei <--
Sun Soul
RANGE


You can also do the same for subclass features that rely on Wisdom:


WISDOM
Four Elements
Long Death
Sun Soul
Open Hand
Shadow
Drunken Master
Kensei
DEXTERITY


The Kensei is more Dex-based than the Drunken Master, due to the fact that the Drunken Master will be in melee combat more often (as all of their features rely on Flurry of Blows and melee combat), and so they will have more opportunities to use Stunning Strike. Additionally, having a higher Wisdom Saving Throw can be important for a character who is always going to be in melee combat.

[Rukelnikov]

A Kensei has to choose at least one ranged weapon.

They also have features that are only usable with a ranged weapon.

So while you can choose to neglect the ranged components of a Kensei, you'd be choosing to make the subclass as...less.

Similarly, consider a Barbarian who focuses on ranged combat.

Or compare the Kensei to virtually any other non-Sun Soul Monk, and it will appear very obvious that it was intended to work in ranged combat, at least for a considerable amount of time.

TBH, I read a lot of Kensei being good as ranged attackers, but I've never undeerstood why. 1d4 extra damage seems hardly relevant, and they don't get Archery style, is it because of the "concentrationless Magic Weapon" and the mini smite?

[Man_Over_Game]

TBH, I read a lot of Kensei being good as ranged attackers, but I've never undeerstood why. 1d4 extra damage seems hardly relevant, and they don't get Archery style, is it because of the "concentrationless Magic Weapon" and the mini smite?

It's not about them being *good* as ranged attackers, but *better than any other Monk*.

They're not a specialist, like the Arcane Archer or a ranged Hunter Ranger, so why should they be better? Rather, they're a ranged attacker with a BA Disengage/Dodge and 40 speed when they need it, or they can pump their damage by 2.5 every turn.

However, when a ranged specialist, like an Arcane Archer, is caught in melee combat, their specializations become useless. A Kensei who's caught is simply a Monk who's at home in melee combat.



Consider it like this: Say They make a Ranged Barbarian Subclass. Do you expect it to be a better ranged attacker than a Hunter Ranger or a Rogue? Of course not. But now consider it against every other Barbarian, and it looks like a solid choice. It's everything that a Barbarian is, but more.

The Kensei is the same thing, but for Monks.


Don't be a Kensei if you plan on being a specialized archer. Don't be a Kensei if you plan on being a specialized melee combatant. Only be a Kensei if you plan on being both.

[Rukelnikov]

It's not about them being *good* as ranged attackers, but *better than any other Monk*.

They're not a specialist, like the Arcane Archer or a ranged Hunter Ranger, so why should they be better? Rather, they're a ranged attacker with a BA Disengage/Dodge and 40 speed when they need it, or they can pump their damage by 2.5 every turn.

However, when a ranged specialist, like an Arcane Archer, is caught in melee combat, their specializations become useless. A Kensei who's caught is simply a Monk who's at home in melee combat.



Consider it like this: Say They make a Ranged Barbarian Subclass. Do you expect it to be a better ranged attacker than a Hunter Ranger or a Rogue? Of course not. But now consider it against every other Barbarian, and it looks like a solid choice. It's everything that a Barbarian is, but more.

The Kensei is the same thing, but for Monks.


Don't be a Kensei if you plan on being a specialized archer. Don't be a Kensei if you plan on being a specialized melee combatant. Only be a Kensei if you plan on being both.

Thx, I get the picture then.

[clash]

TBH, I read a lot of Kensei being good as ranged attackers, but I've never undeerstood why. 1d4 extra damage seems hardly relevant, and they don't get Archery style, is it because of the "concentrationless Magic Weapon" and the mini smite?

Also a lot of people write it off as 1d4 extra damage and don't realizeit applies to multiple attacks. After level 5 it is actually 2d4 damage which starts being more competitive with the alternate ba unarmed strike. Still not as strong in terms of damage but the range advantage makes its git's good option

[KyleG]

All great advice. I think I'm leaning towards open hand. So that probably means ill start with. 10 / 15+1 / 13+1 / 12 / 14+1 / 8 and probably should take 2 to wisdom at level 4 and 2 to dex at 8 if he survives that long.

[Foxhound438]

All great advice. I think I'm leaning towards open hand. So that probably means ill start with. 10 / 15+1 / 13+1 / 12 / 14+1 / 8 and probably should take 2 to wisdom at level 4 and 2 to dex at 8 if he survives that long.

Observant would actually be a really good fit for you at level 4 then, since you're going to have an odd wisdom at the start, so giving it +1 is the same end benefit to your rolls and stats

[KyleG]

Observant would actually be a really good fit for you at level 4 then, since you're going to have an odd wisdom at the start, so giving it +1 is the same end benefit to your rolls and stats

True. Puts both stats to 16 and observants half feat fits well with assessing situations.
What is the equivalent dex feat if I swapped the starting wis/dex scores?

[Rukelnikov]

True. Puts both stats to 16 and observants half feat fits well with assessing situations.
What is the equivalent dex feat if I swapped the starting wis/dex scores?

The are only 4 half Dex Feats you qualify for: Athlete, Lightly Armored, Weapon Master and Resilient Dex (which wouldn't be very useful sinceyou already have proficiency in Dex saves).

Weirdly enough, Lightly Armored is the best choice you could take, since, as a warforged, you can choose to calculate your AC as 11+Dex+Proficiency. This means that if you raise your Dex first, you will always have better AC than if you used 10+Dex+Wis.

[Pex]

AC is increased with Dexterity just the same as Wisdom.

Additionally, the Kensei has more incentives to use ranged attacks than almost every other Monk subclass, and Stunning Fist isn't usable with ranged attacks.

Lastly, a higher Dexterity also means more landed hits and higher overall damage. While they will not succeed on their Stunning Blow as often as other Monks, they will get more chances to try with a higher Dexterity.



There is no incentive to prioritize Wisdom. That doesn't mean that Wisdom is useless (AC and Stunning Blows are still awesome), but you shouldn't consider Wisdom on a Kensei unless Dexterity is already maxed out (except for narrative reasons, I suppose).

In a list of best Wisdom-less Monks, Kensei is #1, followed by Drunken Master and Shadow.

Not all Kensei are exclusively range attackers. Some may like the versatility of being both range and melee as the need or situation warrants. Me for example. I did boost DX to 18 at 4th level before WI because at the time I wasn't using any WI based attacks, so yes, bump DX first, but WI is not useless. Now that I can stun I will boost WI to 18 at 8th level because it's more important to me the bad guy fails his saving throw than one extra point of damage in an attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

Not all Kensei are exclusively range attackers. Some may like the versatility of being both range and melee as the need or situation warrants. Me for example. I did boost DX to 18 at 4th level before WI because at the time I wasn't using any WI based attacks, so yes, bump DX first, but WI is not useless. Now that I can stun I will boost WI to 18 at 8th level because it's more important to me the bad guy fails his saving throw than one extra point of damage in an attack.

Sure. And an Ancestral Guardian Barbarian can perform at range by hitting enemies for the taunt effect as they break line of sight.

It's not that Kenseis can only be ranged combatants, or only be hybrids, but the ratio between melee-range builds involved with Kensei vs. every other Monk option is going to be disproportional.



Consider you have a Drunken Master who wants to be a Ranged combatant. That'd be weird, considering none of his features support that. He can still do that, and I'm sure he could find a way to make it work, but he's still really weird.
This is true for an Open Hand Monk, or a Long Death Monk. There's really only two options people think wouldn't be an oddball case to be a ranged specialist Monk, which are the Kensei and the Sun Soul.



If we take it a step further, and say that all Monk subclasses are roughly equal in power when considering all of their features, the Kensei has about 50% of their subclass features usable with melee combat. A Drunken Master has 100% of their features designed for melee combat. Between the two, who would you guess is the better melee combatant? Who would you likely find to be in melee combat more?


I'd say that the Monk is already a melee specialist and that the Kensei makes it a generalist. However, the choice of being a Kensei vs. any melee-focused Monk subclass means that it's likely a hit to the build when a melee-focused subclass could have been chosen instead. You're allowed to be unorthodox, much in the same way as a Ranged Barbarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is balanced by that choice, or that there is evidence supporting your build.

The Kensei adds ranged options to the Monk. Considering all the other Monk subclasses, what do you think it should be lacking to compensate for that gain?

[Citan]

A Kensei has to choose at least one ranged weapon.

They also have features that are only usable with a ranged weapon.

So while you can choose to neglect the ranged components of a Kensei, you'd be choosing to make the subclass as...less.

Similarly, consider a Barbarian who focuses on ranged combat.

Or compare the Kensei to virtually any other non-Sun Soul Monk, and it will appear very obvious that it was intended to work in ranged combat, at least for a considerable amount of time.

Rather, put the Kensei into a list of all the Monks, from Melee to Range, and see where it falls in place. Like so:


MELEE
Drunken Master/Long Death/Open Hand
Shadow
Four Elements
Kensei <--
Sun Soul
RANGE


You can also do the same for subclass features that rely on Wisdom:


WISDOM
Four Elements
Long Death
Sun Soul
Open Hand
Shadow
Drunken Master
Kensei
DEXTERITY


The Kensei is more Dex-based than the Drunken Master, due to the fact that the Drunken Master will be in melee combat more often (as all of their features rely on Flurry of Blows and melee combat), and so they will have more opportunities to use Stunning Strike. Additionally, having a higher Wisdom Saving Throw can be important for a character who is always going to be in melee combat.
While I completely agree with your previous post (Kensei being optimizable with DEX "only") I have to slightly disagree on your "ranges".

In the melee/ranged gradius, I'd put Kensei "behind" Sun Soul as the most ranged.
After all, Sun Soul's radiant bolts are just 30 feet, which is not far from melee, and mainly "close range". Their Burning Hands mimic speaks for itself, so their only long range ability is the "smaller radiant fireball" which is 11th level.
Compared to Kensei who could play full ranged from level 3 to as long as he wants. ^^

In the WIS/DEX gradius, I'd also push Sun Soul as the most needing actually, then Open Hand, then only Four Elements, then Long Death. Reasons being...
- Open Hand certainlys needs DEX for Flurry, but all its abilities are tied with WIS. So it actually likes having both stats up.

- Sun Soul's most useful abilities, as well as Stunning Strike, also are tied with WIS (radiant bolts are nice for a time, and nice occasionnaly at high level, but between those you have other, easier ways to get ranged attacks, and you'll probably want to keep Ki for Stun in melee anyways).
(Counterpoint: Burning Hands does half damage so if you're ok with that you can indeed push DEX first at least until you get lvl 11 ability).

- Four Elements, while certainly not the way I would play it myself, can perfectly be used picking mainly (only?) non-WIS based Disciplines. In other words, while the "best" 4E (imo) can definitely be WIS-hungry (at least on same scale as Open Hand), you can also play one more DEX-oriented, especially once you hit level 11.

- Long Death's Fear effect is great, but uses action and is friendly-fire prone. So you may actually decide fairly to make it not worth pushing WIS first. Then the only reason to boost WIS is for Stunning Strike in hope of getting kill faster, but that's about the only reason (lvl 17 ability is mostly not worth pouring much ki into it). You can perfectly play a Long Death which is DEX first, which means overall better accuracy and damage (especially with Elven Accuracy and Expertise to prone), and mix in insane defense with Ki on Dodge as bonus action instead.



I'd say that the Monk is already a melee specialist and that the Kensei makes it a martial generalist.
I'd say this is the best way to sum up what Kensei is about.
The "martial" word though is from me, because the same could be also said about 4E, although in a magical way. :)

[nickl_2000]

Let's add one more option to make it even more interesting. Have you looked at drunken master? The ability to redirect blows is really flavorful for a character who wants to avoid combat before throwing a punch

[Pex]

I'd say that the Monk is already a melee specialist and that the Kensei makes it a generalist. However, the choice of being a Kensei vs. any melee-focused Monk subclass means that it's likely a hit to the build when a melee-focused subclass could have been chosen instead. You're allowed to be unorthodox, much in the same way as a Ranged Barbarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is balanced by that choice, or that there is evidence supporting your build.

The Kensei adds ranged options to the Monk. Considering all the other Monk subclasses, what do you think it should be lacking to compensate for that gain?

The only range affect Kensei get is the ability to have a range weapon and an extra 1d4 damage. A nice thing to have but Legolas or Hawkeye he is not. What he gives up is whatever other subclass the player could have chosen. Having a decent range attack does not necessitate weakening of melee. Stunning remains a useful and powerful effect that all monks get. Being a subclass does not negate the main class.

[KyleG]

Let's add one more option to make it even more interesting. Have you looked at drunken master? The ability to redirect blows is really flavorful for a character who wants to avoid combat before throwing a punch

had another look at this but nope still doesn't feel right. Even Open hand seems more Jackie chan in some ways, with push backs and proning.

Im pretty certain ive settled on Open Hand for this Character so that should be fun. kensei was carefully considered as I have a backup character in another campaign that I was thinking of try to build as a 6th level totem barbarian/open hand monk, so I might consider turning him into a pure Sun Soul for something different, although that barbarian/monk sounds cool.

[Rukelnikov]

The only range affect Kensei get is the ability to have a range weapon and an extra 1d4 damage. A nice thing to have but Legolas or Hawkeye he is not. What he gives up is whatever other subclass the player could have chosen. Having a decent range attack does not necessitate weakening of melee. Stunning remains a useful and powerful effect that all monks get. Being a subclass does not negate the main class.

They also get the mini smite, but its really mini.

[CorporateSlave]

The only range affect Kensei get is the ability to have a range weapon and an extra 1d4 damage.

Well, one could argue that Kensei also get (at least the option for):
Longbow proficiency without being an elf - longer range proficiency than most Monks' ranged options
Longbow as Monk weapon - increased damage die (granted this is only a bit better and only at high levels)
Longbow as Kensei weapon - all ranged Longbow attacks "magical" starting at level 6
Longbow as Kensei weapon - able to also add 2 x Martial Arts die damage on a crit for 1 Ki via Deft Strike starting at level 6
Longbow as Kensei weapon - can Sharpen the Blade to give ranged attacks +1 to +3 to hit & damage
Longbow as a Monk weapon - Unerring Accuracy at level 17, can re-roll a miss

Granted not all of these are strictly applicable only to ranged attacks, but they are sub-class features that also include ranged attacks, which is part of what makes them substantially better at ranged attacks than most Monk sub-classes.

Not that I'm arguing with the rest of your post, absolutely they still aren't as great at archery than dedicated archer classes, and they lose out some abilities other Monk sub-classes get. And Stunning Strike still remains a powerful melee feature for them as you say.

[Man_Over_Game]

The only range affect Kensei get is the ability to have a range weapon and an extra 1d4 damage. A nice thing to have but Legolas or Hawkeye he is not. What he gives up is whatever other subclass the player could have chosen. Having a decent range attack does not necessitate weakening of melee. Stunning remains a useful and powerful effect that all monks get. Being a subclass does not negate the main class.

Fair, but let's step back from the Monk a bit, and take another comparison.

Like the College of Swords Bard. The Bard is primarily a spellcaster, yet you do not play a Swords Bard if you plan on primarily being a spellcaster.

Lore Bard makes a better caster. Glamour makes a better Face. Whispers makes a better ranged attacker. You pick Swords Bard because of the features that it provides compared to all of the other Bard options, which is for its melee enhancements. Now, you can still play the Swords Bard as a range character, and choosing to simply be focused on casting means you'll be, at the very least, a Bard, but its features uniquely make it able to perform in melee combat.

Or, we can take an extreme scenario. Say you're a Wolf Totem Barbarian with no melee allies. At the worst case scenario, you're a subclassless Barbarian. That isn't always the worst thing, your subclass features don't always have to be relevant, but how are you compared to all of the other Barbarians, who CAN use their subclass?

Choosing to ignore the fact that Kenseis are designed to use range is like choosing to not apply half of your subclass. All the other Monks players get a full subclass, and you're limited to half.

[CorporateSlave]

Choosing to ignore the fact that Kenseis are designed to use range is like choosing to not apply half of your subclass. All the other Monks players get a full subclass, and you're limited to half.

I agree with this 100%, however that also makes me think that in regards to what the OP said he wants to do with his character, Open Hand is probably more the way to go. There aren't a lot of ways to do nonlethal damage with a ranged weapon, and if he's still constantly choosing and experimenting with different weapons, Kensei locks him into just a few that he can get his sub-class abilities working with (and frankly from a flavor standpoint, that's sort of the opposite of how Kensei weapons are supposed to work...its the years of dedicated training with the weapon that grants the special abilities with it right?...notwithstanding adding a few more at later levels of course! ...but if you came to 5e for internal logic I have some bad news for you...)

[KyleG]

I agree with this 100%, however that also makes me think that in regards to what the OP said he wants to do with his character, Open Hand is probably more the way to go. There aren't a lot of ways to do nonlethal damage with a ranged weapon, and if he's still constantly choosing and experimenting with different weapons, Kensei locks him into just a few that he can get his sub-class abilities working with (and frankly from a flavor standpoint, that's sort of the opposite of how Kensei weapons are supposed to work...its the years of dedicated training with the weapon that grants the special abilities with it right?...notwithstanding adding a few more at later levels of course! ...but if you came to 5e for internal logic I have some bad news for you...)

Not so much constantly changing. That was just to highlight his curious adaptive nature. In the first dungeon he opened a door without checking for traps and was damaged. He proceeded to investigate the next door and gentlemenly offered another character the opportunity to push it open.

[Pex]

Fair, but let's step back from the Monk a bit, and take another comparison.

Like the College of Swords Bard. The Bard is primarily a spellcaster, yet you do not play a Swords Bard if you plan on primarily being a spellcaster.

Lore Bard makes a better caster. Glamour makes a better Face. Whispers makes a better ranged attacker. You pick Swords Bard because of the features that it provides compared to all of the other Bard options, which is for its melee enhancements. Now, you can still play the Swords Bard as a range character, and choosing to simply be focused on casting means you'll be, at the very least, a Bard, but its features uniquely make it able to perform in melee combat.

Or, we can take an extreme scenario. Say you're a Wolf Totem Barbarian with no melee allies. At the worst case scenario, you're a subclassless Barbarian. That isn't always the worst thing, your subclass features don't always have to be relevant, but how are you compared to all of the other Barbarians, who CAN use their subclass?

Choosing to ignore the fact that Kenseis are designed to use range is like choosing to not apply half of your subclass. All the other Monks players get a full subclass, and you're limited to half.

Of course. The idea is you use both, or rather you can use both. If a Kinsei monk character wants to focus mainly on range attacks he's welcome to, but he doesn't have to. He has that versatility to go melee or range as the need arises. To ignore his melee prowess is also limiting him to half. Wisdom remains important for the AC and stunning saving throw. I have no issue saying Dexterity is more valuable for a Kinsei monk, but being more valuable does not make Wisdom unimportant.

[Zalabim]

Choosing to ignore the fact that Kenseis are designed to use range is like choosing to not apply half of your subclass. All the other Monks players get a full subclass, and you're limited to half.
The only reason I have to disagree is that the kensei always gets a melee-exclusive feature (or just agnostic features) at all the same times they get ranged-exclusive features. The Kensei is better with ranged weapons, ranged combat, than any other monk in some ways, but they're also better with melee weapons, and melee combat, than any other monk in some ways. It's impossible to use all their features all the time. All monks are going to have to make choices about which ability, which technique, to use at any given time. Ultimately, I think all monks are missing out if they ignore their ability to use range. Kensei are allowed to use range, but they don't have to focus on it. They aren't limited by the option being given.