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Zaq
2019-03-18, 01:20 AM
Okay, you need to go read the Wikipedia page for Olga of Kiev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_of_Kiev). It has a legend in it that, while likely not completely true, is nonetheless extremely entertaining. I'll quote from what's on Wikipedia right now:


With the best and wisest men out of the way, she planned to destroy the remaining Drevlians. She invited them to a funeral feast so she could mourn over her husband's grave. Her servants waited on them, and after the Drevlians were drunk, Olga's soldiers killed over 5,000 of them.[4] She then placed the city under siege.[4] She asked for three pigeons and three sparrows from each house; she claimed she did not want to burden the villagers any further after the siege.[4] They were happy to comply with the request.

Now Olga gave to each soldier in her army a pigeon or a sparrow, and ordered them to attach by thread to each bird a piece of sulfur bound with small pieces of cloth. When night fell, Olga bade her soldiers release the pigeons and the sparrows. So the birds flew to their nests, the pigeons to the cotes, and the sparrows under the eaves. The dove-cotes, the coops, the porches, and the haymows were set on fire. There was not a house that was not consumed, and it was impossible to extinguish the flames because all the houses caught on fire at once. The people fled from the city, and Olga ordered her soldiers to catch them. Thus she took the city and burned it, and captured the elders of the city. Some of the other captives she killed, while some she gave as slaves to her followers. The remnant she left to pay tribute.[7]

I mean, is that not incredible? It's pretty incredible. Sure, it's almost certainly not true, but it's hella entertaining. So let's talk about how to achieve something like this in a D&D setting, because we're geeks and that's what geeks do.

To define this a bit, let's say that the goal is to burn down a town of decent size this way.

As I see it, there's two or three primary components to this endeavor. We need a way to convince a whole bunch of birds to do our bidding at once, we need something that can catch fire on something of a time-delay, and we need that fiery something to be sufficiently fiery to ignite buildings. This is, well, remarkably challenging by strict RAW.

The animal part seems like a good match for animal trance, but animal trance only has a duration of Concentration, and it only affects 2d6 HD of critters at once. That's enough to burn down a campsite, but not a proper major town.

Animal messenger is closer: long duration, the animal explicitly lets you tie something to it, and it'll go where you tell it to go. But animal messenger only affects one critter at once. We'd need a way to get it cast over and over. Maybe Chain Spell?

I guess there's always good old wild empathy checks, but given that these animals are basically going on unwitting suicide missions, wild empathy seems unethical, or at least unsporting.

(Okay, Olga did it without magic by getting animals that already were nesting in the homes she wanted to burn down and just letting them find their way home, but still.)

Then there's the fire part. What do we want to use as our source of flame? I like the idea of using fire seeds to make holly berry bombs, since you get more than one at once, they wait until you say a command word, they all go off at once, and they explicitly ignite combustible materials nearby. The downside is that you have to be within 200 feet, which seems kind of extremely close for this sort of thing, and we'd also want to make more than 8 at once if at all possible. On the nonmagical side, there's alchemist's fire, but it's got a downside: it's heavy for birds to carry and also doesn't want to just ignite itself once the bird takes it to the nest. Ditherbombs are unreliable, do the wrong damage type, and don't last long enough.

I feel like there's gotta be more tricks out there that could make this scheme plausible. Thoughts?

remetagross
2019-03-18, 04:51 AM
You could use a (Enlarged?) Projected Image and send it in the middle of the town, then have the Fire Seeds originate from it. That way, you could comfortably remain hidden away from the city while your Projected Image triggers all seeds off of a radius 200ft around it. You could have several Projected Images for that purpose (Twin Spell? you'd need Arcane Thesis to lower the cost of all the metamagics), each covering a circle 400ft in diameter around it. That way you can cover good swaths of the city.

As to the sheer number of seeds needed, the best trick seems to patiently stash them over the days and coating them with Quintessence so that the duration does not expire. You'd need to be a multiclass Druid/Psion, but it works. Hey, you also could accumulate Quintessence-coated Animal Messengers in this way!

Darrin
2019-03-18, 06:46 AM
Handle Animal is cheap. So are ravens/pigeons/doves/etc. If you don't want a Warbeast raven, I'd guess 1 SP or 1 CP? You can train them yourself for just the time involved (several weeks?), or pay a trainer (A&EG has prices).

Another option, which a crafter could stockpile: Quaal's feather token: bird. 300 GP to buy, 150 to craft. Get yourself the medieval equivalent of a phone book (local tax ledger) and you can deliver a large number of "messages" via feather token unerringly.

The "message": My first thought was explosive runes, but that's [force] damage. Next thought was using Attune Gem, maybe with burning hands, which is... Maybe 50 GP per gem? (AFB). Attune Gem has some pretty flexible trigger conditions. Glyph Seal would work as well, but that's much more expensive, 1000 GP each. Third thought was fire trap + envelope, somewhat cheaper, 25 GP, but you need the recipient to open it or force it open some other way. Illusory script with "Open me" could help there. Having the messenger creature open the envelope ensures the spell goes off.. Maybe build a bunch of Clockwork Menders? Mirror Mephit + simulacrum abuse could get you a bunch of obedient disposable messengers fairly quickly.

It occurs to me, if you built an army of clockwork minders to survive the initial fire trap via extra HD or fire resistance of some sort... You could repeat the process in another town the next day, and completely wipe out an entire kingdom in a matter of weeks. Or set their crops on fire before harvest, watch them starve over the winter.

Dimers
2019-03-18, 07:40 AM
Attune Gem, maybe with burning hands, which is... Maybe 50 GP per gem? (AFB). Attune Gem has some pretty flexible trigger conditions.

Yep, 50gp.


Third thought was fire trap + envelope, somewhat cheaper, 25 GP, but you need the recipient to open it or force it open some other way.

If you're using Handle Animals to teach birds to carry envelopes, you can also condition them to expect treats when they open envelopes ...

InvisibleBison
2019-03-18, 08:29 AM
Animal messenger is closer: long duration, the animal explicitly lets you tie something to it, and it'll go where you tell it to go. But animal messenger only affects one critter at once. We'd need a way to get it cast over and over. Maybe Chain Spell?

A war spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?306567-War-Spells!-Discussion-and-Application) version of animal messenger would summon 25 creatures per caster level. It would probably make all the messengers go to the same place, but there's two ways around this that I can think of: Firstly, the spell doesn't define exactly what constitutes a place, so you might be able to set the city as their destination and rely on them going to different places within the city. Less questionably, if you could find some sort of remote-detonated incendiary, you could send them to a place where they wouldn't be noticed and wait for the spell to expire, after which they would resume their normal activities and scatter, presumably moving throughout a large area.

gkathellar
2019-03-18, 12:08 PM
I first heard of that trick in the context of the Mongols, as one of their siege-winning tactics. It appears to have been A Thing, at least in the folklore of warfare.

Zaq
2019-03-19, 09:17 AM
I first heard of that trick in the context of the Mongols, as one of their siege-winning tactics. It appears to have been A Thing, at least in the folklore of warfare.

Can’t say I’m surprised. It does make narrative sense as folklore, even if it’s not super likely to have ever taken place exactly as said folklore describes. Still, neat to hear that kind of confirmation.

I think we’ve got lots of options for “how to control the birds” by now (good ideas, folks!), but I’m still feeling like we’re a little lacking in the “how to burn down the houses” department. I don’t feel like any of the options that have been laid out so far can be deployed on a big scale. And I mean, I get it—getting enough instances of anything to put one in every house in a major town isn’t going to be super cheap, but I still feel like there’s some obnoxiously clever piece of the puzzle just lurking out there somewhere.

Regarding the Attune Gem option, 50 gp per house isn’t completely unworkable in theory, but does Attuning a Gem take 1 day, as standard for crafting magic items? Or is there a way to get more than that in a shorter period of time, assuming that you can’t just walk into the You-Can-Buy-Literally-Anything Store and buy an arbitrary ready-made quantity?

A character with Mark of Warding can stockpile fire traps during downtime, but I can’t think of a good way to actually trigger them once you get them into position. Oh, and fire trap doesn’t actually say that it ignites combustible materials, so we have to kind of read between the lines. Given that there are game elements that explicitly do ignite flammable objects in their blast radii, that’s slightly disappointing.

Can you key multiple sets of fire seeds to the same command word? Probably not. That would lead to shenanigans. Hell, this itself is basically shenanigans.

Bronk
2019-03-19, 09:33 AM
I first heard of that trick in the context of the Mongols, as one of their siege-winning tactics. It appears to have been A Thing, at least in the folklore of warfare.

I've read multiple articles on how this was attempted with bats in WW2 as well, but never got past the planning and prototype stage.



I think we’ve got lots of options for “how to control the birds” by now...

I think it would be much easier to find a flock of birds somewhere, cast 'speak with animals', and win them over with promises of food. If you were to do this, you could just give them each a 1 gold piece tindertwig, tell them how to use it (like a reusable match), and set them loose.

Oh, but you'd better either be ready with the food afterwards or be ready to deal with the flock before they retaliate!


... but I’m still feeling like we’re a little lacking in the “how to burn down the houses” department.

I'd go with either alchemist's fire for wood houses or stonefire for stone buildings. There's an item for stonefire somewhere, and they used it in the novels to take down Ched Nasad.

If you have to use Handle Animal, there's a 'drop a bomb' trick option in one of the dragon magazines...

Dimers
2019-03-19, 04:46 PM
Regarding the Attune Gem option, 50 gp per house isn’t completely unworkable in theory, but does Attuning a Gem take 1 day, as standard for crafting magic items?

It's relatively quick: regular cast time plus one hour.

jmax
2019-03-20, 07:51 AM
You don't need any fancy tricks to pull this off. You also don't need an army.


Replace the army with Bluff and possibly Disguise. Pretend you're an exterminator, preferably under orders from the mayor/count/whatever. Instead of demanding tribute, gather the birds yourself.

If you aren't terribly good at Bluff but are decently stealthy, instead use Hide and a silence spell to kidnap the birds yourself.

If you're a druid, use Wild Empathy to make the birds come to you and follow you while you just stroll on down the street. If the DM says you need more than Wild Empathy to make them follow, use Handle Animal to Push them as well. You'll have the all the birds you need in short order, and as an added bonus you'll look like the pigeon lady from Home Alone 2. (Note that you'll scare the droppings out of a bunch of birds, and probably a bunch of them will burn to death. But if you're restoring a human-spoiled area to a more natural state, you can probably square that with revering nature.)


After that, use the same mundane materials Olga of Kiev (supposedly) did for the incendiaries. Pay an alchemist to make them for you if you're really bad at chemistry. (Yes, I realize alchemy and chemistry aren't the same thing - but an alchemist will likely dabble in chemistry.)


You can probably pull this off at 1st level, and on a decent-sized village you could make an argument that it should take you to 6th or 7th level immediately* by virtue of having defeated a few hundred 1st-level Commoners (regardless of whether they die). Bonus points if you can convince your DM that it was a Good act because it prevented a bloody siege that would have killed a whole bunch more people on both sides :-P



Also, funny timing - I had a discussion with coworkers about Olga of Kiev just a few days ago.



*If your DM defines it as a single encounter, I think RAW from DMG says you get capped at advancing a single level. But you will certainly develop a reputation worthy of a character much more powerful. Which may result in your character getting killed in short order, but it will have been worth it for the style points.