Stuck with a cantrip

[Bjarkmundur]

Did I read that right? Am I not allowed to retrain and swap out cantrips when I gain a level?

[Belthien]

Rules as written? No.

But a reasonable DM should probably let you swap one once if you'd made a mistake.

[SpanielBear]

You picked True Strike for your first character too, huh?

[Bjarkmundur]

Is there a balance reason for this? Is it okay to prepare 1st Level Spells, but not cantrips, each long rest? Or is it a game design decision?

[Icaruscalls]

Is there a balance reason for this? Is it okay to prepare 1st Level Spells, but not cantrips, each long rest? Or is it a game design decision?

I haven't heard anyone say why it is that way, but I noticed that with the most recent Artifacer they released with UA they have the option to change 1 of their cantrips after each level up, much like Sorcerers and Warlocks can with Spells known.

[hymer]

Is there a balance reason for this? Is it okay to prepare 1st Level Spells, but not cantrips, each long rest? Or is it a game design decision?
I think it's for simplicity. Swapping of abilities at certain times is something that gets asked about quite a bit by players, especially with a little complication added - like multiclassing.

[Sigreid]

I think it's a shame that prepared spell casters can't prepare their cantrips as well.

[NaughtyTiger]

It is a spell that you have studied so hard and so long (years of training) that it is second nature to you, thus why it takes so little effort to cast.
or for warlock/sorc, it was gifted/spontaneous/inherited and equally difficult to change.

I am fine with that being a decision you are stuck with, much like archetype and associated abilities (pick 1 of hunter abilities and stick with it forever)

[Sigreid]

It is a spell that you have studied so hard and so long (years of training) that it is second nature to you, thus why it takes so little effort to cast.
or for warlock/sorc, it was gifted/spontaneous/inherited and equally difficult to change.

I am fine with that being a decision you are stuck with, much like archetype and associated abilities (pick 1 of hunter abilities and stick with it forever)

The main reason I consider it a shame is that there are some cantrips situational enough that they just dont get picked. That's my whole argument.

[Dr. Cliché]

It is a spell that you have studied so hard and so long (years of training) that it is second nature to you, thus why it takes so little effort to cast.

See, this is a very weird explanation.

For a start, many classes don't get their magic via study - that's primarily a trait of Wizards. Sorcerers have inherent magic due to their bloodlines, warlocks make pacts with powerful entities etc.

But whatever, let's just take the 'study' class, i.e. the wizard. At level 3 he has 2 Cantrips (we'll say Fire Bolt and Prestidigitation), which he's had since Lv1. Let's say that he spent 5 years (or whatever your preferred arbitrary length of time is) mastering those spells.

Okay. Now he levels up.

Overnight, he can immediately master a Cantrip that should apparently take him years of study. It can't be due to practise as he couldn't even cast that spell prior to levelling up. So clearly he can't have been practising it.

Now maybe you'll argue that he spent years studying the theory of that new Cantrip. Quite how this works for the sorcerer, we'll never know, but we'll stick with the wizard for now. Okay, so he was studying a Cantrip for years in advance... and yet he only now needs to pick which one he was studying? :smallconfused:

Do wizards study Schrödinger's Cantrip, which is every Cantrip and no Cantrip until the wizard finally makes up his mind?

Because if not, then the only other explanation is that the wizard has devoted years into studying *every* Cantrip. In which case, you'd think he might be able to put a little extra effort in and actually learn them earlier (the lazy sod).

It really seems like a decent explanation for an entirely different mechanic. :smalltongue:

[Man_Over_Game]

Not everything is going to be perfect. You can multiclass into a class and gain your first cantrip at level 15.

But it does fit the narrative explanation as to why Cantrips don't cost resources AND they scale with your level. No other spell does that.

My narrative explanation is that Cantrips are a part of who you are. They don't cost anything because they are natural to you, much in the same way that you would move your limbs or breathe.

[NaughtyTiger]

Cantrips -- simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote the PHB treats them as different from higher level spells. it doesn't say they are simpler, or have lower resources. It suggests that the PC is waay more practiced in it.



Okay. Now he levels up.

Overnight, he can immediately master a Cantrip that should apparently take him years of study. It can't be due to practise as he couldn't even cast that spell prior to levelling up. So clearly he can't have been practising it.

Now maybe you'll argue that he spent years studying the theory of that new Cantrip. Quite how this works for the sorcerer, we'll never know, but we'll stick with the wizard for now. Okay, so he was studying a Cantrip for years in advance... and yet he only now needs to pick which one he was studying? :smallconfused:.
...
Because if not, then the only other explanation is that the wizard has devoted years into studying *every* Cantrip. In which case, you'd think he might be able to put a little extra effort in and actually learn them earlier (the lazy sod).


Consider this slight change to the argument
-----------
Okay. Now he levels up.
Overnight, he can immediately master [2 new spells at a higher power than he could previously cast.]
Okay, so he was studying a [spell] for days/weeks/hours... and yet he only now needs to pick which he was studying?
In which case, you'd think he might be able to put a little extra effort in and actually learn them earlier (the lazy sod).
-------

I totally see where you are coming from for this. There is a roleplay aspect to it.
For sorceror, warlock, like you pointed out, it is from outside forces. I often let my DMs pick new spells and cantrips (with suggestions so it will be fun).
When I DM, I require that all my players plan their next level, to multiclass into fighter, they better say they are sparring during their short rests.
Wizards ought to start researching their next spell (there is a chance they can use it in a pinch before they level up)

[JoeJ]

See, this is a very weird explanation.

For a start, many classes don't get their magic via study - that's primarily a trait of Wizards. Sorcerers have inherent magic due to their bloodlines, warlocks make pacts with powerful entities etc.

But whatever, let's just take the 'study' class, i.e. the wizard. At level 3 he has 2 Cantrips (we'll say Fire Bolt and Prestidigitation), which he's had since Lv1. Let's say that he spent 5 years (or whatever your preferred arbitrary length of time is) mastering those spells.

Okay. Now he levels up.

Overnight, he can immediately master a Cantrip that should apparently take him years of study. It can't be due to practise as he couldn't even cast that spell prior to levelling up. So clearly he can't have been practising it.

Now maybe you'll argue that he spent years studying the theory of that new Cantrip. Quite how this works for the sorcerer, we'll never know, but we'll stick with the wizard for now. Okay, so he was studying a Cantrip for years in advance... and yet he only now needs to pick which one he was studying? :smallconfused:

Do wizards study Schrödinger's Cantrip, which is every Cantrip and no Cantrip until the wizard finally makes up his mind?

Because if not, then the only other explanation is that the wizard has devoted years into studying *every* Cantrip. In which case, you'd think he might be able to put a little extra effort in and actually learn them earlier (the lazy sod).

It really seems like a decent explanation for an entirely different mechanic. :smalltongue:

You're confusing categories. The player chooses a new cantrip that the character has been studying all along. It's no different than a player creating new details about the character's back story that, from the character's POV, have always been true.

[Aquillion]

I haven't heard anyone say why it is that way, but I noticed that with the most recent Artifacer they released with UA they have the option to change 1 of their cantrips after each level up, much like Sorcerers and Warlocks can with Spells known.After 10th level, they can replace one each short or long rest!

[Dr. Cliché]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.

[Aquillion]

Anyway, if the problem is "I'm not having fun with this cantrip", the answer is to ask your DM. Most DMs put in significant effort to ensure that their players have fun, and are unlikely to balk at something as minor as swapping out a cantrip that you are (I assume) not using or which you may never have used at all.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.

Then what's an explanation that works?

Balance-wise, Cantrips should scale, so that high level casters aren't out of the game when they run out of spells, because high levels are often determined by damage numbers.

Also, Cantrips should be locked in, because they can straight up remove the use of a lot of the higher level spells. Would you take Unseen Servant if you had Mage Hand? Would you take Thunderwave if you already had Thunderclap?



Did that make sense?

[DMThac0]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.

Silly you, voicing your opinion on a forum where people will discuss their own points of view.

I agree it's a very slapdash way of explaining away why cantrips aren't allowed to be changed, but I don't care since it doesn't hurt the games I DM/play in. Some people have commented on ways to explain it within the confines of the book, I don't think any have said that it is a perfect and reasonable explanation, and some have even tinkered with your point of view. I wouldn't call that frantic defense in the least.

The books have been out for years now, it's not going to change, so accepting it as a poor explanation and playing the game is the best course of action. Hand waving it, twisting words to make it work, or simply not bothering to care are ways to deal with it. Making snarky comments about other people trying to work a narrative just seems a bit out of place.

[R.Shackleford]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.

If you like this, you should try Final Fantasy 7 fans.

[NaughtyTiger]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.

Silly me.
I provided an explanation of the rules that is rooted in the book (1 line of the book, but still)
You disagreed. Cool.
You provided an example as to why my story was wrong. Cool.

I pointed out that your example breaks down for any spell learned. Meh. (And actually I thought my explanation was pretty logical, so do my players)
JoeJ points out a great roleplay reason why you pick ANY spell at level up. Ooh.
MOG makes a mechanical point why you can't change it often. Cool.

So you complain that we are fanatically defending every aspect of 5e.

I understand that you don't like the rule. Then don't use it.

[Aquillion]

I think the reason they don't let you change your cantrips is because the frequency with which you use them makes them very character-defining; having them swapped out would often feel more jarring than just one higher-level spell. Someone who relies on their cantrips in combat could potentially go from all-melee to all-ranged, or vice versa, in a single level.

It's possible they were also concerned with the fact that some cantrips scaled and others didn't, and felt that people would always swap for scaling ones later on. I doubt that's it, though - it seems like a slightly silly concern, since the scaling cantrips are attack ones and you rarely need more than two of them at most, anyway. Plus, unless you're a Warlock, cantrips inherently get weaker at higher levels even with the scaling, since you have more actions to compete with them and more spell slots to burn.

I think DMs should let you change them if you're unhappy, though. Especially since the gap between cantrips is very wide. It's a bit odd - bad cantrip selection is one of the easiest ways to screw yourself over, especially at low levels.

[Tanarii]

Sigh.

Silly me. I forgot that people will fanatically defend every aspect of 5e. It doesn't matter if explanations don't make a lick of sense, if they're for 5e then they must obviously be perfect.
This is not unique to 5e. People have been making the same 'it doesn't make sense you suddenly learn an ability wight training' vs 'you were training all along retroactively' arguments since training was dropped. Probably before training was introduced for that matter.


You picked True Strike for your first character too, huh?Seen this often enough I've been strongly tempted to add a standing house rule that True Strike (specifically) can be retrained.