Changing the power scale; like E6 but different

[tedcahill2]

My longtime D&D group tried E6 and found it wasn't to our liking. Progress to level 6 was fun, and then progress slows to a near standstill as you have nothing to look forward to except an additional feat here and there.

We all like the level of play that E6 puts us at, those first 6 levels, and maybe even up to 8 or 9, are what we tend to find the most fun. I want to try and capture that in a longer format. Take those 6 or 8 levels, and really parse out the power gain so that you aren't hitting 6 and slowing, but you're instead steadily increasing your power until you reach what D&D would call level 6, but you've played 20 levels worth of a campaign.

Has anyone seen this done? If so can you link to it so I can take a look-see?

[Ignimortis]

My longtime D&D group tried E6 and found it wasn't to our liking. Progress to level 6 was fun, and then progress slows to a near standstill as you have nothing to look forward to except an additional feat here and there.

We all like the level of play that E6 puts us at, those first 6 levels, and maybe even up to 8 or 9, are what we tend to find the most fun. I want to try and capture that in a longer format. Take those 6 or 8 levels, and really parse out the power gain so that you aren't hitting 6 and slowing, but you're instead steadily increasing your power until you reach what D&D would call level 6, but you've played 20 levels worth of a campaign.

Has anyone seen this done? If so can you link to it so I can take a look-see?

It's called 5e. It's pretty much how E6 works, except it's stretched out to 20 levels. Level 20 5e character might as well as be level 6-8 3.5 characters progression-wise, honestly.

[tedcahill2]

It's called 5e. It's pretty much how E6 works, except it's stretched out to 20 levels. Level 20 5e character might as well as be level 6-8 3.5 characters progression-wise, honestly.

So I hear what you're saying, but I have a collection of virtually every 3.5 book, and my group likes the system, and a few members that have played 5e didn't like it, so I'm looking for alternatives.

There are more than enough low CR monsters to fill game after game of low level adventures. I just want to find a way to extend low level progression by adding additional utility without increasing hit points and damage too quickly.

[the_david]

Pathfinder first edition actually works much more like this. The assumption is 20 encounters per level, instead of the 13 in D&D 3.5, but you can use a slow progression that alters it to about 30 encounters per level. This includes the distribution of loot as there's an alternate wealth by level table.

[Eldariel]

We had a thread on pretty much exactly this recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583254-alternatives-to-leveling-up-slow-level-advancement). You could break down leveling and just have the characters earn levels and other rewards a piece at a time (important to add other rewards so that every gain feels significant). I realise that isn't exactly what you're asking for: what you want is a rewrite of the whole system with class features capping out at 6ish, which I don't think has been done, but making those 6 levels take longer accomplishes pretty much the same thing. Why does gaining a level have to entail an extra HD anyways? 3e is the first game in the series to feature that assumption; in 2e for example HP gains practically ceased in the teens.

[Drakevarg]

I can't speak to if it will actually work because I haven't tested it yet, but I'm trying something of a similar vein. Here's what I'm planning:

- No starting with casters. It's possible to earn casting later as a story reward and entering half-casting PrCs that have no casting prereqs.
- Cross-classing is gestalted. The logic being that if you took two people and sent one of them into special forces training, and had the other spend the equivalent time and effort just learning a random series of skills, you'd have extremely different levels of conditioning. So someone who decides to be a ninja 1/monk 1/rogue 1/scout 1/knight 1 might have a decently wide repertoire of basic tricks, but they've never really had to push their limits and so lack the conditioning of someone who just worked really hard on a single discipline. It'd be like expecting someone who's spent every summer for the last five years taking the beginners classes for a different martial art each year to come out with the same level of conditioning as someone who stuck with a single discipline for the same period.

Time will tell if this is horribly balanced or not, might need to have some other factors in there depending on how much the guy who went Knight 20 outpaces the guy who went Ninja 4/Monk 4/Rogue 4/Scout 4/Knight 4. I came up with this idea because I was originally running E6 but I wanted people to have the opportunity to punch out giants while still feeling mortal.

[Seerow]

My longtime D&D group tried E6 and found it wasn't to our liking. Progress to level 6 was fun, and then progress slows to a near standstill as you have nothing to look forward to except an additional feat here and there.

We all like the level of play that E6 puts us at, those first 6 levels, and maybe even up to 8 or 9, are what we tend to find the most fun. I want to try and capture that in a longer format. Take those 6 or 8 levels, and really parse out the power gain so that you aren't hitting 6 and slowing, but you're instead steadily increasing your power until you reach what D&D would call level 6, but you've played 20 levels worth of a campaign.

Has anyone seen this done? If so can you link to it so I can take a look-see?

I've played in a couples of games where after level 6 we would level every 4 or 5 feats. So you still eventually level but those levels get spaced out more.

If I were to do it again I'd look into options to provide instead of feats to keep the same slower progression but with some other reward for check points, at least some of them. Having 20 feats at level 8 was ultimately leading to shenanigans, and if you avoid the shenanigans then after 10 bonus feats you're shrugging your shoulders and saying well what do I want now?

[exelsisxax]

Slow the XP down a lot, give bonus feats at half levels, feats only at E6/P8.

[Uncle Pine]

I once planned a level 1-11 campaign where I wanted to focus more heavily on the story and the characters. I knew I would've thrown higher than average CR monsters at the party on a regular basis because of the premises of the campaign, so I informed the player that they would've gained xp at half the normal rate to avoid rushing levels too much. More than two years later they were halfway through 8th level, extremely satisfied by how everything was going and on their way to the climax of the campaign - except one player ended up buying a fully charged necklace of fireball from a disguised agent of the BBEG, which rapidly led to a grossly gruesome TPK.

[tedcahill2]

I don't want to make progress feel slow, I basically want to take the premise of E6, which is to cap the level and add extra feats to continue progression, and I want to cap the level still, but I want to sprinkle in the extra feats on the way to the level cap.

Taking it even further I want characters to start out as basically nobody; garbage stats, like 12s or less, a few skills at 1 rank, no feats, a few 0 level spells. I'm thinking each level will be split in 5. At each sublevel earned character may receive a couple HP (not a hit die), a skill point, a feat, another spell per day, an attribute point, etc. These small incremental benefits would accrue rapidly throughout the level until they finally reach a full class level milestone and get the class features of the class.

It's obviously not really fleshed out, but my goal is to make a game under these rules feel much less fantasy heroic and much more fantasy survival.

[The Kool]

I like where you're going, and I've toyed with something similar. Still, what you describe either needs to be generalized (features/stats being doled out in chunks, which I've seen but you don't seem to want) or you'll have to rework every class. What you describe is not a handy set of rules to apply to D&D 3.5, it is a new homebrew system built upon the framework of D&D 3.5 If this is what will make you and your players happy, sweet, but it's going to take a lot of work as you have to completely redesign not just the leveling system but every class that is to be played.

Question: Are you planning to have modular advancement, where players can choose whether they're gaining a feat, skill, HP, etc? Or are you planning to have your advancement dictated by what class you're advancing in?

[tedcahill2]

I like where you're going, and I've toyed with something similar. Still, what you describe either needs to be generalized (features/stats being doled out in chunks, which I've seen but you don't seem to want) or you'll have to rework every class. What you describe is not a handy set of rules to apply to D&D 3.5, it is a new homebrew system built upon the framework of D&D 3.5 If this is what will make you and your players happy, sweet, but it's going to take a lot of work as you have to completely redesign not just the leveling system but every class that is to be played.

Question: Are you planning to have modular advancement, where players can choose whether they're gaining a feat, skill, HP, etc? Or are you planning to have your advancement dictated by what class you're advancing in?

Neither really. Although it could easily be modular. My idea, as it simmers now, is to start players at level 0, no class level. Now I don't want to put players in a situation where they are choosing what their next class level will be before they reach it, so at sub-levels 1-4 they would get a few skill points, a few hit points, a feat, and they would get these things at a designated amount of XP earned. So when I say it could easily be modular you could let the player pick instead of having specific things gained at specific sub-levels. I was opting for a scheduled approach to make it easier to keep track of what you should or should have by a certain point.

Once a character reaches 500 XP they would hit level 1 and would pick a class. They gain all special abilities associated with the class at that level, including base attack bonus and save bonuses. It's really sort of a knotted up idea. I'm trying to untangle all my thoughts and see if I have an idea worth pursuing.

[The Kool]

Alright... Some of the stuff that makes the most sense to be spread out is class-dependent so that's pretty difficult. If you make them declare what they're leveling into, you can smooth it out more. If you want to retain that freedom, you're pretty much left with feats, ASIs, and about half your skills and HP, though even skills are dependent on what class you go into.

[tedcahill2]

Alright... Some of the stuff that makes the most sense to be spread out is class-dependent so that's pretty difficult. If you make them declare what they're leveling into, you can smooth it out more. If you want to retain that freedom, you're pretty much left with feats, ASIs, and about half your skills and HP, though even skills are dependent on what class you go into.

That's about what I was thinking. I was going to address skills and HP a little differently though.

You are not given 4x skill points at level 1. Instead you'd start with only a couple skill points, and I mean like 2, with max ranks of 1. You'd get +1 skill point at each sub-level, and upon reaching a class level you get a modified number of skill points based on the class you choose plus your INT modifier. Something like that.

For hit points I was going split it to health and hit points. Health is what it takes to actually kill you, and hit points is your short term stamina and damage mitigation. I want to avoid the 15 minute adventuring date, so to do so I was going to make it so that hit points are refilled after each encounter. So every fight you're starting fresh. If you lose your hit points you take a hit to your health in the form of an injury. Injuries have a mechanical affect, reduced speed, penalty with certain skill checks, etc. You only die if you lose all of your health. My hope here is that having 10 hit points at low level won't discourage players from pushing forward in a dungeon because as long as someone survives the fight everyone is right back up to full HP, but they might have some lasting injuries to deal with.

[The Kool]

Interesting take on skill points. For the health, take a look at the vitality and wound point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) alternate rules on the SRD. It provides an alternate view of health that you might glean some interesting ideas from.

[tedcahill2]

Interesting take on skill points. For the health, take a look at the vitality and wound point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) alternate rules on the SRD. It provides an alternate view of health that you might glean some interesting ideas from.

I'm familiar with wounds/vitality, it's similar for what I'm going for, but what really inspired me was the health mechanics from the Pillars of Eternity games. I want something that allows you to be ready to go all out for each fight, and don't require that you burn through all your healing after a fight ends to prepare for the possibility of a new one. Instead, at the start of each fight you are at full HP (less any penalties you've accumulated for being injured). If you're taken to 0 during a fight you are injured in a more long lasting sense, but the heal skill or a healing spell could actually put you back in the fight. After each fight, as long as you have a short time to rest, you recover back to full hit points. Your health and injuries do not recover however, and requires actual rest.

[Yogibear41]

Play E10, but give all Full BAB Classes a BAB of 11 at level 10(But not divine power clerics), and give Paladins, Rangers, Hexblades, and SpellThiefs 1 3rd level spell per day.

Now wizards get fun stuff like Teleport, Clerics can take you to other planes and raise the dead. There is still a reason to play something like a fighter over an average bab class because they get 3 attacks compared to two. There is still a reason to play every class.

[Climowitz]

What you need is to boost the life and duration if high level creatures and reduce the damage output and the distance of to hit and to avoid damage and spells.
You could set a maximum of base stat to 20 and magical enhancement of +10
Trade bab 1x 3/4x and 1/2x to good average and bad save progression, and fractional saves.
Boost hp to base con + hit dice × con mode + dice roll (or even max value of dice).
Set that full attacks can be either 2, 3 or 4 attacks but each consequent attack imposes a cumulative -4 to the roll, except for light weapons which is cut to -2.
Remove metamagic reducers and use pathfinder power attack, so that it's damage can't get overwhelming.

This is all I can think of right now.