Is this too good for a potion?

[Yora]

I am thinking about adding various alchemical potions to my setting and one of them is meant to be particularly potent:

Advantage on Strength and Constitution ability checks and saving throws.
Disadvantage on Wisdom and Charisma ability checks and saving throws.
Lasting for 6 hours.
After that, the character takes 1d4 poison damage and is poisoned for 6 hours.

What do you think? Too good, or is this something that you seriously would have to think about before you chose to drink it?

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, it doesn't seem very good at all.

Disadvantage on Wisdom saves is KILLER if you run into any, and being Poisoned for 6 hours afterwards means it's long rest time whether you like it or not.

It certainly has uses-but it's something I'd be very, VERY careful about using.

[Rukelnikov]

Its a potion with very powerful advantages, and very powerful disadvantages. In the correct situation it can reduce the difficulty of an encounter massively.

It looks like the kind of item that rewards planning ahead, and knowing what you'll be up against.

[Unoriginal]

It sounds like some kind of combat/work drug you'd give to slaves to make them work in overdrive at the cost of their health.

[MaxWilson]

I am thinking about adding various alchemical potions to my setting and one of them is meant to be particularly potent:

Advantage on Strength and Constitution ability checks and saving throws.
Disadvantage on Wisdom and Charisma ability checks and saving throws.
Lasting for 6 hours.
After that, the character takes 1d4 poison damage and is poisoned for 6 hours.

What do you think? Too good, or is this something that you seriously would have to think about before you chose to drink it?

Generally speaking, advantage on saves is more situational/harder to exploit than advantage on attack rolls or bonuses to save DC. Sure, this potion could be essential if you're going up against a bunch of monsters who inflict Con saves, like Banshees and Abominable Yetis and White Dragons. (Banshees would be a mixed bag: you're less vulnerable to Wail but more vulnerable to Fear actually, so you'd want to have a secondary method of overcoming Fear such as the Heroism spell.) It could also be fairly valuable if a low-AC character needs to keep concentration (e.g. Shepherd Druid wanting to ensure his Conjure Animals stays up), although being incapacitated by failing a Wisdom save (e.g. Hypnotic Pattern) can also make you lose concentration, so I'd be pretty cautious about using it blindly.

Overall it seems likely that this potion will be approximately as powerful and useful as you expect it to be. There aren't any obvious loopholes or exploits.

[Vogie]

It sounds like some kind of combat/work drug you'd give to slaves to make them work in overdrive at the cost of their health.

*Stim_pack.mp3*
"Oh, yeah"

[KorvinStarmast]

*Stim_pack.mp3*
"Oh, yeah"
Go! Go! GO!

[OverLordOcelot]

Disadvantage on wisdom and charisma saving throws is too big of a drawback, IMO. It's just too easy to run into an enemy that has a dominate or charm effect and get forced to help them, or to run afoul of a hypnotic pattern or banishment and be incapacitated. This would be something you'd be really hesitant to use, because it's extremely high risk. Also not really sure what you're going to use the advantage for - it's good for grapplers, but lots of grapplers have ways to generate advantage for that, and you generally only need one or two hits of advantage.

On the flip side, the 'poisoned for six hours' bit isn't much of a drawback once characters are T2. A lesser restoration (2nd level) or 5 points of LOH will knock that off really easily. If you want this to really make a character weak after using it and they're not T1, you should use a level of exhaustion instead of poisoned, since that takes a level 5 slot and 100gp to clear.


It could also be fairly valuable if a low-AC character needs to keep concentration (e.g. Shepherd Druid wanting to ensure his Conjure Animals stays up), although being incapacitated by failing a Wisdom save (e.g. Hypnotic Pattern) can also make you lose concentration, so I'd be pretty cautious about using it blindly.

Well, it's only good if that shepherd druid doesn't have war caster, since it won't stack with the advantage from that, and like you said it makes the druid extremely vulnerable to simple knockout effects, which are pretty common in my experience. So I'm not sure that I'd want to use it for that at all. Overall it seems really, really situational and not something you'd see PCs using all the time, the way they would something that gave you advantage on attacks.

[Yora]

*Stim_pack.mp3*
"Oh, yeah"

That's the idea. :smallbiggrin:

I actually want it to be more bad than good, though in some extreme situations players might actually drink this stuff out of desperation.

[MaxWilson]

Well, it's only good if that shepherd druid doesn't have war caster, since it won't stack with the advantage from that, and like you said it makes the druid extremely vulnerable to simple knockout effects, which are pretty common in my experience. So I'm not sure that I'd want to use it for that at all. Overall it seems really, really situational and not something you'd see PCs using all the time, the way they would something that gave you advantage on attacks.

After some thought the most powerful use I can think of for this potion is to combine grappling with Sickening Radiance at minimal risk of friendly fire (because it's a Con save).

Not broken.

[Aquillion]

I think that people are overlooking the "ability checks" advantage, which makes this really good for a grappler. They would basically want to use it whenever they're not expecting to have to make Wisdom / Charisma saves.

[MaxWilson]

I think that people are overlooking the "ability checks" advantage, which makes this really good for a grappler. They would basically want to use it whenever they're not expecting to have to make Wisdom / Charisma saves.

But there's already ways to get advantage on grapple checks: Enlarge and Enhance Ability, neither of which requires you to make a magic item. The main limitation on grappling, in practice, is size limits, and Enlarge helps with that while this potion does not.

Is it useful for a grappler? Sure, potentially! Is it abusively strong? No, or Enhance Ability would also be abusively strong, especially when upcast.

[Samayu]

It has great potential as a plot tool, if the enemy knows what the effects look like.

"Target spells on the bold, glassy-eyed ones."

[Eriol]

Given the heavy debate in this thread as to whether it's good or not, I think you have your answer: it's fine. Something that's situational with drawbacks seems perfect. Definitely not a clear win, but has its uses, and is risky. I think the primary debate is if the downside is TOO harsh.

I'd probably allow it if a player proposed it at my table.

[Aquillion]

But there's already ways to get advantage on grapple checks: Enlarge and Enhance Ability, neither of which requires you to make a magic item. The main limitation on grappling, in practice, is size limits, and Enlarge helps with that while this potion does not.

Is it useful for a grappler? Sure, potentially! Is it abusively strong? No, or Enhance Ability would also be abusively strong, especially when upcast.Yeah, I'm not saying it's game-breaking, just that it's more useful than some people are giving it credit for. Advantage-in-a-bottle for your main shtick isn't something to sneeze at, even if other options exist.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's game-breaking, just that it's more useful than some people are giving it credit for. Advantage-in-a-bottle for your main shtick isn't something to sneeze at, even if other options exist.

Yeah, especially with no concentration cost and a long duration. For me, the deciding factor would be how expensive it was. If it's 5000 gp a pop, I'd probably never use it. At 1000 gp, I'd buy a couple for emergencies and probably never use them. At 100 gp, I'd buy them and use them constantly, if I were a grappler--or at least, unless I was going up against something that would definitely target mental saves.

[Dalebert]

If it's the alchemical equivalent of a stim pack, then maybe a level of exhaustion instead of poisoned? It seems more appropriate and 6 hours of poisoned seems harsh. Or you could have them make a save at the end (w/o adv of course). Failing gives 2 levels of exhaustion instead of just one.