Divine spells in a wizard spell book?

[Rockbeard]

So I remember there is some rule or something I read in a 3.5 book that let's say a wizard make an arcane scroll of a divine spell "with help from a divine caster I think" and since that scroll lets say "vigor" is now arcane. So if this is all possible "or maybe a fever dream not sure" could a wizard add that arcane "vigor" to his/her spell book. And make more scrolls and or potions of the divine spell as arcane.
Am I crazy? Did I ever actually read this? Or did I misread something and lose it over time?

Thank you for your time on this.

[FelineArchmage]

Maybe you're thinking of the archivist class? It's literally like a wizard with a spellbook but with divine spells.

[DrMotives]

Nah, you can't switch a spell between arcane and divine just by doing joint scroll writing. You can joint craft an item, but the spell is still going to be either divine or arcane, as per its source. Archivists, and a couple of other classes, can do weird things to get spells onto their own class list, but those are features of those classes.
There's even a feat that lets a wizard access a cleric domain, and write the spells in their book. But when they do that, those spells are still divine, and require wisdom to meet spell level requirements.

[Jack_Simth]

So I remember there is some rule or something I read in a 3.5 book that let's say a wizard make an arcane scroll of a divine spell "with help from a divine caster I think" and since that scroll lets say "vigor" is now arcane. So if this is all possible "or maybe a fever dream not sure" could a wizard add that arcane "vigor" to his/her spell book. And make more scrolls and or potions of the divine spell as arcane.
Am I crazy? Did I ever actually read this? Or did I misread something and lose it over time?

Thank you for your time on this.

Yes and no.

Yes, you can collaberate with a Cleric to make an Arcane scroll of a Divine spell (let's go with Lesser Vigor); the Cleric provides the Lesser Vigor spell, the Wizard provides Scribe Scroll; if the wizard elects to be the creator and pay the 1 point of XP, it ends up as an Arcane Scroll of Lesser Vigor. A wizard can even scribe it into his spellbook.

However: The wizard still can't prepare or cast it (at least, not without other exceptions), as the Wizard is still restricted to the class list, as spelled out in the wizard class description. When trying to make an item, the wizard is required to prepare the spell, which he still can't do.

So... you can get halfway there. The Archivist is better in this regard, as the Archivist isn't restricted to anyone's class list. Ditto for the Chameleon, but that's not a full caster by default.

[Rockbeard]

Ah thank you all for the clarifications. I knew I can't crazy. Just didn't remember how it all worked out.

[Crichton]

Yes and no.

Yes, you can collaberate with a Cleric to make an Arcane scroll of a Divine spell (let's go with Lesser Vigor); the Cleric provides the Lesser Vigor spell, the Wizard provides Scribe Scroll; if the wizard elects to be the creator and pay the 1 point of XP, it ends up as an Arcane Scroll of Lesser Vigor. A wizard can even scribe it into his spellbook.

However: The wizard still can't prepare or cast it (at least, not without other exceptions), as the Wizard is still restricted to the class list, as spelled out in the wizard class description. When trying to make an item, the wizard is required to prepare the spell, which he still can't do.

So... you can get halfway there. The Archivist is better in this regard, as the Archivist isn't restricted to anyone's class list. Ditto for the Chameleon, but that's not a full caster by default.

So wait, does this mean that a Spell to Power Erudite could collaborate with a Cleric and a Wizard to acquire Arcane scrolls of any Cleric spell, and then add them to their repertoire of powers known?

[Talakeal]

Iirc Some monsters have sorcerer casting but access to the cleric and or druid spell list, nagas and dragons for example.

In theory there is nothing from stopping such a monster creating a scroll of such a spell and then giving it to a wizard to copy into thier spell book.

[CMagnum]

Maybe thinking of anyspell?

[Jay R]

The recaster class, from Races of Eberron, can do this exactly twice, with two different spells.

[Crichton]

Yes and no.

Yes, you can collaberate with a Cleric to make an Arcane scroll of a Divine spell

Now that I look at it again, I don't think you can. You can cooperate this way to fulfill item creation prerequisites, but instead of listing prerequisites for scrolls, the feat Scribe Scroll just says 'You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.'

This would lead me to believe that a scroll can't be crafted cooperatively the way other magic items can. Which is sad, because otherwise this would be wonderful. Not so much for the Wizard, as you mentioned, but for other shenanigans, like the Erudite.

[Buufreak]

So wait, does this mean that a Spell to Power Erudite could collaborate with a Cleric and a Wizard to acquire Arcane scrolls of any Cleric spell, and then add them to their repertoire of powers known?

Congrats. You've discovered the cheese that makes it a T0 class.

[Crichton]

Congrats. You've discovered the cheese that makes it a T0 class.

Must've missed my second response where I realized it doesn't work because of how Scribe Scroll is worded.

There are other ways to get Divine spells converted to Arcane, but it's more complicated than this attempted method.

[KillianHawkeye]

Now that I look at it again, I don't think you can. You can cooperate this way to fulfill item creation prerequisites, but instead of listing prerequisites for scrolls, the feat Scribe Scroll just says 'You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.'

This would lead me to believe that a scroll can't be crafted cooperatively the way other magic items can. Which is sad, because otherwise this would be wonderful. Not so much for the Wizard, as you mentioned, but for other shenanigans, like the Erudite.

This is how I rule it for Scribe Scroll as well. No cooperation, it's gotta actually be a spell you know yourself.

[Troacctid]

Also, there's a rule that you can only scribe a spell into your spellbook if it's on your class spell list.

[Crichton]

This is how I rule it for Scribe Scroll as well. No cooperation, it's gotta actually be a spell you know yourself.

It's not so much a ruling if it's exactly what the text says.


Also, there's a rule that you can only scribe a spell into your spellbook if it's on your class spell list.

I've not heard that rule before. Where is it from? I don't see it in the section on adding spells to spellbook that describes the process, on the SRD, nor the wizard class description.

I know they can't prepare and cast spells off other lists, but haven't seen anything about adding to spellbooks. Not sure why they'd want to, though, in any case, if they can't cast them.

[noob]

You can have all the divine spells you want in your spellbook and you will know them and be able to use them into item creation and be able to make scrolls of those spells or even schemas of those but you will be unable to cast them without using them from a magical item because for casting a spell you need 1: to know the spell 2: to have it in the spell list of your class and 3: to prepare it or to magically make it appear in your memory with some obscure effect.

[Crichton]

You can have all the divine spells you want in your spellbook and you will know them and be able to use them into item creation and be able to make scrolls of those spells or even schemas of those but you will be unable to cast them because for casting a spell you need 1: to know the spell 2: to have it in the spell list of your class and 3: to prepare it or to magically make it appear in your memory with some obscure effect.

AFB at the moment, but I'm pretty sure you have to prepare and expend a spell to use it in item creation.

But you seem to take for granted that they CAN add them to their spellbook. Do you have a specific method in mind? I'm legitimately looking for a way.

[noob]

AFB at the moment, but I'm pretty sure you have to prepare and expend a spell to use it in item creation.

But you seem to take for granted that they CAN add them to their spellbook. Do you have a specific method in mind? I'm legitimately looking for a way.

You can prepare spells you can not cast: the need for the spell to be in your list is only for casting not preparing.
And any divine spell can exist in written form(archivists exists) and be added as is in your spellbook: no rule says the spell have to be in its arcane form so you can totally put a prayerbook in your spellbook and have all the divine spells of that prayerbook in your spellbook.

[Crichton]

no rule says the spell have to be in its arcane form so you can totally put a prayerbook in your spellbook and have all the divine spells of that prayerbook in your spellbook.

Reading the SRD section on adding spells to a spellbook, the first step is to decipher the magical writing, which links you the rules on how to make the Spellcraft checks to do that. The text there says "To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level)."

I'm not seeing a rule anywhere that lets a wizard decipher a divine magical writing and then add it to their spellbook.


All of which is neither here nor there with regard to how to get an arcane scroll of a divine spell.

[noob]

Reading the SRD section on adding spells to a spellbook, the first step is to decipher the magical writing, which links you the rules on how to make the Spellcraft checks to do that. The text there says "To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level)."

I'm not seeing a rule anywhere that lets a wizard decipher a divine magical writing and then add it to their spellbook.


All of which is neither here nor there with regard to how to get an arcane scroll of a divine spell.


Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can (see Arcane Magical Writings). Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writing and identify it. However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.

www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineMagicalWritings

so you can copy them in your spellbook since they are deciphered just as an arcane spell.

[Crichton]

www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineMagicalWritings

so you can copy them in your spellbook since they are deciphered just as an arcane spell.

Ah, ok. Thanks. Very good.

How would you go about getting an arcane scroll of a divine spell, though? (without thought of who can use it due to lists or whatnot)

[Troacctid]

I've not heard that rule before. Where is it from? I don't see it in the section on adding spells to spellbook that describes the process, on the SRD, nor the wizard class description.

I know they can't prepare and cast spells off other lists, but haven't seen anything about adding to spellbooks. Not sure why they'd want to, though, in any case, if they can't cast them.
Rules Compendium p160.


Ah, ok. Thanks. Very good.

How would you go about getting an arcane scroll of a divine spell, though? (without thought of who can use it due to lists or whatnot)
Warlock, arguably.

[Jack_Simth]

Now that I look at it again, I don't think you can. You can cooperate this way to fulfill item creation prerequisites, but instead of listing prerequisites for scrolls, the feat Scribe Scroll just says 'You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.'
You sure you want to rule that way? Craft Wand uses the same wording, and the Wizard and the Cleric working together to make a wand of Cure Light is standard fare.

[Crichton]

You sure you want to rule that way? Craft Wand uses the same wording, and the Wizard and the Cleric working together to make a wand of Cure Light is standard fare.

I don't see as how it's a ruling at all. Scrolls don't have listed prerequisites that are different for each scroll, the way other magic items do. The rules for cooperating are from the Prerequisites section on magic items. So the only text we have that governs whether you can make a scroll is the text from Scribe Scroll, and it says you can make a scroll of any spell you know. It's not a ruling to say that if you don't know the spell, you can't scribe the scroll.


If there's some other place to find some clarifying rules text, then I'm all on board, but what it says in the feat, without any other sources, is pretty clear. As for wands, if CLW is all you want, it's already Arcane, from Bards.

[Crichton]

Rules Compendium p160.


Ah, the Rules Compendium, such a contentious work. So it would seem they did officially change/clarify the rules here, but not in Core.



Warlock, arguably.

Yeah, I can see that working. Are there counterarguments for that method?