OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Angrith]

Who knew giant death-worms could see through invisibility? Also, glad the Order is here; the action is about to begin again!

[Jasdoif]

Who knew giant death-worms could see through invisibility.I kind of assumed anything that can use see invisibility freely would always have it running.

[Yirggzmb]

And things are about to begin, oh boy. Really curious how this is going to go down.

[understatement]

Oh yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to get that out of my system.

Man, when the rest of the Order jumps in -- I can't wait!

[Quebbster]

Looks like things are about to start happening, excellent.

[HUMVEE Driver]

First off, that's pretty smart for a giant death-worm.

Second, I was just thinking that about Invisibility!

[jwhouk]

I have never laughed harder at a straight line in a webcomic. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Ironsmith]

Who knew giant death-worms could see through invisibility. Also, glad the Order is here; the action is about to begin again!

For me, that's a bit more of a "waitwaitwait, what?". That worm doesn't have any eyes, so how is it that it can see at all? And in any other context, I could see it picking up on intruders via Tremorsense, but then, it wouldn't pick up anything that's not on the ground (nor would it recognize that said adventurers are invisible if it did).

*sighs* I know, I know, magic, but it still seems like some balls were dropped here. (Not like that, wow that came out wrong.)

[Deuce]

Oh look, it's the members of the party that the Vamps should be less worried about that got detected. Pay attention to them, blood suckers, and not the clerics, or the guy with the seriously anti undead sword.

Tactics, in my OOTS? It's more likely than you think

[Gnoman]

V was so funny here that I almost missed Blackwing's comment.

[Sniccups]

I think this is the first time I have actually been on the site when a new comic got posted. I love the kind of awkward giant death worm, especially since I expected it to be non-sentient.

[Resileaf]

We've seen the vampires' plan, time to see how the Order's comes through!

That worm is quite chill tho.

[woweedd]

I see why BW's offended. Ravens are both larger and smarter then crows, no mean feat given that crows are already one of the smartest animals in the world.

[Peelee]

I guess the nightcrawler is going to eat crow, then?

[Jasdoif]

I see why BW's offended.Blackwing seems confused rather than offended.

[hamishspence]

Interesting - black background, but not white text. Maybe because it's Extraplanar Undead rather than regular Undead?

[woweedd]

Blackwing seems confused rather than offended.
I got more of an indigent tone.

[Peelee]

I also read Blackwing as confused. He's looking around as well.

[denthor]

How did that thing know I expected tremor sense. Maybe life force detection like undead?

[Jay R]

So we can tell what's going on, Haley.

[kiapet]

It took me a moment to realize Blackwing was looking for the invisible crow because he's a Raven, and not just because he's oblivious.

[hamishspence]

How did that thing know I expected tremor sense. Maybe life force detection like undead?

Nightcrawlers have See Invisibility as an at-will spell-like ability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler

[ellindsey]

Surprisingly chill dude, for an extraplanar undead abomination.

[Kantaki]

Not sure who is funnier, Blackwing or the Death Worm.
Also, calm down Exarch, you're lucky the summoned help does ask for clarification.
More often than not they're far less accommodating.

Seriously, poor Wormy just wants to be as helpful as a Death Worm can be and the new boss acts like a total jerk.
The Order should totally adopt the poor dear.:smallamused:

[Eragon123]

It took me a moment to realize Blackwing was looking for the invisible crow because he's a Raven, and not just because he's oblivious.

May also be a defense response.

Crows can be ********s. (https://qz.com/1321986/citizen-scientists-helped-researchers-discover-that-crows-bully-ravens/)

[Verappo]

Giant dark worm must be protected at all cost, their ego is fragile

[KorvinStarmast]

At will see invisibility: Nightcrawlers would be a fine watch worm if one can afford one.

Back and forth between Exarch and nightcrawler: fun (was primed for Monty Python swamp castle guards sketch after the first few panels, but Rich didn't go there, good job)

Haley's frustration with invisibility being dispelled: lesson learned (Guessing it came from one of her wands?)

Exarch with spell prepared: sorta like V's Bugsby-cat spells

V's explanation: to help all of the non-D&D playing people who like the strip.

All in all, nice one, thank you Giant.

I got more of an indigent tone.
He's got a bauble, so he's got collateral for a loan. Ought to have enough credit to get by.

[Jasdoif]

I got more of an indigent tone.Maybe, but I think he's more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) directly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) confrontational (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1013.html) when he's indignant.

[Marcotix]

May also be a defense response.

Crows can be ********s. (https://qz.com/1321986/citizen-scientists-helped-researchers-discover-that-crows-bully-ravens/)

OoTS, entertaining AND informative!

I certainly hope V and Hailey aren't in too much danger here. I am looking forward to seeing what the Order has in store for the vampires.

[grandpheonix]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy! Shenanigans cam ensue!

[Ironsmith]

Seriously, poor Wormy just wants to be as helpful as a Death Worm can be and the new boss acts like a total jerk.
The Order should totally adopt the poor dear.:smallamused:

:belkar:

...I don't think any more needs to be said.

[Fyraltari]

For me, that's a bit more of a "waitwaitwait, what?". That worm doesn't have any eyes, so how is it that it can see at all? And in any other context, I could see it picking up on intruders via Tremorsense, but then, it wouldn't pick up anything that's not on the ground (nor would it recognize that said adventurers are invisible if it did).

*sighs* I know, I know, magic, but it still seems like some balls were dropped here. (Not like that, wow that came out wrong.)
I thought they heard them at first, but they could tell they were invisible. It may have made for a slightly funnier gag if they couldn't have told they were invisble anyway.

I think this is the first time I have actually been on the site when a new comic got posted. I love the kind of awkward giant death worm, especially since I expected it to be non-sentient.
Yeah kind of awkward and wants to be sure they get everything right. Definitely their first day on the job.

Nightcrawlers have See Invisibility as an at-will spell-like ability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler
But that doesn't expalinhow they can See Invisibility without eyes! Why would they even need that in the first place?

[Windscion]

As someone who has had to read documentation which assumes stuff that "everyone knows", I can totally sympathize with the worm.

[hamishspence]

But that doesn't expalinhow they can See Invisibility without eyes!

Same way Xykon can speak without lungs, vocal chords, or tongue - magic.

[Kantaki]

Why would they even need that in the first place?

So they can see stuff they can't see?
Which would be pretty much everything seeing that they got no eyes...

[Jasdoif]

But that doesn't expalinhow they can See Invisibility without eyes! Why would they even need that in the first place?Same way Xykon can speak without lungs, vocal chords, or tongue - magic.Or simply non-conventional visual sensory organs, or eyes too small to see at the scale they're drawn at. Nightcrawlers even have max ranks in Spot....

[Dagny]

It'll be pretty funny if the random blue-robed vampire, who I don't think even has a name, ends up being the last vampire standing.

[mucat]

Blackwing seems confused rather than offended.
"Typical. Ravens were always a little slow on the uptake."
- a crow, of course.

[Mad Humanist]

I don't think the Exarch (or his host) have seen Haley or V. He should remember Blackwing though. I doubt this will be relevant.

[Riftwolf]

Deathworm is clearly smarter than his boss. And more likeable too. It'll be a sad when the Worm is turned. (I'm fully expecting that as a strip title, though I doubt turn undead would do much against Likeable Deathworm)

An interesting rules question; could you have a blind creature with See Invisibility? So they can see things other people can't, but can't see what everyone else can?

[mjasghar]

I see why BW's offended. Ravens are both larger and smarter then crows, no mean feat given that crows are already one of the smartest animals in the world.
Crow is not an exact term and is used for different birds sometimes depending on where in the world you are
Technically ravens and American crows have black beaks whilst blackbirds have yellow beaks
This may be a reference to Disney and other cartoons - especially dumbo - where crows are usually yellow beaked to make their mouths more obvious

[SilverCacaobean]

I don't want that worm to die.

[ZerglingOne]

First off, that's pretty smart for a giant death-worm.

Second, I was just thinking that about Invisibility!

That giant death worm has 20 int. It's smarter than most things.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Typical. Ravens were always a little slow on the uptake."
- a crow, of course.

Poes are ever a little slow on the uptake
- a Raven, of course :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Deathworm is clearly smarter than his boss. And more likeable too. It'll be a sad when the Worm is turned. (I'm fully expecting that as a strip title, though I doubt turn undead would do much against Likeable Deathworm)


-6 penalty to Turn checks for all undead (including the nightcrawler) within his aura:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#

Desecrating Aura (Su)
All nightshades give off a 20-foot radius emanation of utter desecration, imbuing their surroundings with negative energy. This ability works much like a desecrate spell, except that the nightshade’s evil is so great that it is treated as the shrine of an evil power. All undead within 20 feet of the nightshade (including the creature itself) gain a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and +2 hit points per HD. (The nightshade Hit Dice, attack, and save entries given here include these profane bonuses.) Charisma checks made to turn undead within this area take a -6 penalty.

[apocolypse101]

For me, that's a bit more of a "waitwaitwait, what?". That worm doesn't have any eyes, so how is it that it can see at all? And in any other context, I could see it picking up on intruders via Tremorsense, but then, it wouldn't pick up anything that's not on the ground (nor would it recognize that said adventurers are invisible if it did).

*sighs* I know, I know, magic, but it still seems like some balls were dropped here. (Not like that, wow that came out wrong.)

See, I was thinking maybe blindsight or something.

[D.One]

It'll be pretty funny if the random blue-robed vampire, who I don't think even has a name, ends up being the last vampire standing.

And only now I've realized that the remaining vampires could be called Gontor & the Nameless Ones

Edit: And their first album would be Rockin' the Dwarven Lands

[Jasdoif]

An interesting rules question; could you have a blind creature with See Invisibility? So they can see things other people can't, but can't see what everyone else can?See invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm) lets you see invisible things in your range of vision; it'd be rather useless without a range of vision.

[ellindsey]

That giant death worm has 20 int. It's smarter than most things.

20 INT, 20 WIS, 18 CHA.

That death worm is probably the smartest, wisest, and most charismatic member of the vampire team left at this point. Maybe not wisest, we don't know the Exarch's Wisdom, but I'm pretty sure about Int and Cha.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It'll be pretty funny if the random blue-robed vampire, who I don't think even has a name, ends up being the last vampire standing.

None of the vampires have had names so far.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

I love that worm. It should be OK even if it's killed, right? Like the chaos giraffes. Hang in there, wormy.

[hamishspence]

That death worm is probably the smartest, wisest, and most charismatic member of the vampire team left at this point. Maybe not wisest, we don't know the Exarch's Wisdom, but I'm pretty sure about Int and Cha.

Exarch is probably at least Wis 19, the minimum needed to activate a Gate scroll.

[Kish]

An interesting rules question; could you have a blind creature with See Invisibility? So they can see things other people can't, but can't see what everyone else can?
Sangwaan was able to see Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) with True Seeing.

[SlashDash]

I'm actually wondering how long has it been since the battle with Greg?

Specifically, did Durkon and Hilga had a chance to memorize spells?

Or are we to assume they are depleted of at least everything we've seen them cast before?

[Sniccups]

Deathworm is clearly smarter than his boss. And more likeable too. It'll be a sad when the Worm is turned. (I'm fully expecting that as a strip title, though I doubt turn undead would do much against Likeable Deathworm)

An interesting rules question; could you have a blind creature with See Invisibility? So they can see things other people can't, but can't see what everyone else can?

I'm going to start referring to this thing as Likable Deathworm now.

[ellindsey]

I love that worm. It should be OK even if it's killed, right? Like the chaos giraffes. Hang in there, wormy.

I think that the rules for Summon are different than those for creatures that come through with Gate. Which could mean that if the Death Worm gets killed here, it's actually dead, not just sent back to its home plane.

On the other hand, a single Dismissal spell could just send it back home intact.

[Rrmcklin]

I see why BW's offended. Ravens are both larger and smarter then crows, no mean feat given that crows are already one of the smartest animals in the world.

Crow vs. Raven is an arbitrary distinction, with no actual taxonomic significance behind it.

[Resileaf]

I'm actually wondering how long has it been since the battle with Greg?

Specifically, did Durkon and Hilga had a chance to memorize spells?

Or are we to assume they are depleted of at least everything we've seen them cast before?

As Gontor just said the meeting is about to start, it means it's the day after the Greg battle.

[Psychronia]

Death Worm is cute. I kinda feel bad about fighting it now.

Wow. Oh yeah, it's only been a week. Too bad tactics usually adapt by the encounter.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm actually wondering how long has it been since the battle with Greg?

Specifically, did Durkon and Hilga had a chance to memorize spells?

Or are we to assume they are depleted of at least everything we've seen them cast before?

They had a few hour's sleep, and people are arriving for the mid-morning vote, so it's likely morning, which means spells have been refreshed.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

I think that the rules for Summon are different than those for creatures that come through with Gate. Which could mean that if the Death Work gets killed here, it's actually dead, not just sent back to its home plane.

Yup:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

Whether it simply passed through on cue from Hel, or was actually Called via the spell option, it's properly there, and can be "killed for real".

[gatemansgc]

i was not expecting the worm to have so much personality lol

[BlueHydra]

I thought the worm would be bigger.

[KorvinStarmast]

I thought the worm would be bigger. That joke was offered up in the previous thread.

[hroþila]

I think that the rules for Summon are different than those for creatures that come through with Gate. Which could mean that if the Death Worm gets killed here, it's actually dead, not just sent back to its home plane.

On the other hand, a single Dismissal spell could just send it back home intact.


Yup:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

Whether it simply passed through on cue from Hel, or was actually Called via the spell option, it's properly there, and can be "killed for real".
Aww man. Thanks for the info. I hope they dismiss it then.

[Mightymosy]

Can I eat them?


Funny. Almost like MitD in his earlier days :-D

[dtilque]

I'm actually wondering how long has it been since the battle with Greg?

Specifically, did Durkon and Hilga had a chance to memorize spells?

Or are we to assume they are depleted of at least everything we've seen them cast before?

They're going to wait until after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) Durkon prepares his spells, Raises Minrah, and she prepares her spells. I assume Hilgya will also prepare new spells, too.

[Jasdoif]

Aww man. Thanks for the info. I hope they dismiss it then.Note that nightcrawlers can plane shift once per day; and the Order has better things to do than prevent it from leaving, or chase it down after it leaves.

[Heksefatter]

I wanna invite that Nightcrawler to my next game night. It's hilarious.

[ellindsey]

Aww man. Thanks for the info. I hope they dismiss it then.

Dismissal is probably their best option for getting rid of it, as it would be a lot easier than actually trying to fight that thing. But it has a really good Will save (+23 according to the SRD), so that's not going to work unless they can boost the spell DC or lower its save somehow.

[hroþila]

Note that nightcrawlers can plane shift once per day; and the Order has better things to do than prevent it from leaving, or chase it down after it leaves.
Can it do that even if it means abandoning its service? I'm assuming Gonthor is high enough level to control it, rather than simply relying on the worm's willingly obeying him as per Hel's wishes.

[Curupira]

Dismissal is probably their best option for getting rid of it, as it would be a lot easier than actually trying to fight that thing.

But can the Order really dismiss it?



Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

Whether it simply passed through on cue from Hel, or was actually Called via the spell option, it's properly there, and can be "killed for real".

Based on Hamishspence's response, I think the Nightcrawler can't be dismissed.

[Jasdoif]

Can it do that even if it means abandoning its service? I'm assuming Gonthor is high enough level to control it, rather than simply relying on the worm's willingly obeying him as per Hel's wishes.Well, the Exarch was about to leave without offering a payment; if he was controlling it, that'd mean he was only expecting it to be around for about two minutes. So I'm pretty sure it's not controlled.

Even if it was, we do have precedent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) for a creature leaving after the death of its controller (it says "If the boss is dead I'm clocking out early"). And it's the vampires the Order is really after; if they can reasonably bypass the nightcrawler, they'll do so.

[hamishspence]

Based on Hamishspence's response, I think the Nightcrawler can't be dismissed.

Dismissal works on any extraplanar creature:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm

the problem is that with 25 HD, and V being more like 15HD or so, the save DC is at -10.

[ellindsey]

But can the Order really dismiss it?
Based on Hamishspence's response, I think the Nightcrawler can't be dismissed.



This spell forces an extraplanar creature back to its proper plane if it fails a special Will save (DC = spell’s save DC - creature’s HD + your caster level). If the spell is successful, the creature is instantly whisked away, but there is a 20% chance of actually sending the subject to a plane other than its own.


It looks to me like a successful Dismissal spell will send the Death Worm back to its home plane, regardless of how it got where it is now. Provided you can make it fail that Will save, which will be difficult.

[SlashDash]

Okay, so everyone are refreshed.

This might bring the question of -
Did Hilga scry again or not?

Not sure if they have a decent item to base the scry on.

[Resileaf]

Considering the difficulty of dismissing it, I think it's more likely that the worm will be fought more normally.
Besides, the Order is due for a victory in battle.

[Clistenes]

20 INT, 20 WIS, 18 CHA.

That death worm is probably the smartest, wisest, and most charismatic member of the vampire team left at this point.

Yeah, and it shows... Even if the Deathworm is able to tell who is undead and who isn't, how did the Exarch expect the Deathworm to know who were their enthralled pawns?

The Deathworm is a smart, competent and efficient ally...

[Ghosty]

It looks to me like a successful Dismissal spell will send the Death Worm back to its home plane, regardless of how it got where it is now. Provided you can make it fail that Will save, which will be difficult.

And get past its 31 Spell Resistance.

This thing is going to be a toughy if played straight. If Durkon is able to pop the roof of the cavern with that hammer, will the daylight flooding in cause the worm to want to flee the area? I thought from the description at the SRD that nightshades really hated daylight and tried to avoid it.

[Fyraltari]

V's explanation: to help all of the non-D&D playing people who like the strip.
If that was the aim it was unecessary. People protecting stuff having Invisibility Purge makes plenty of sense on its own.

None of the vampires have had names so far.

Grey Wolf
Two of them do. Their former leader was called Durkon Allotrope Thundershield and their current one Gontor Hammerfell. sure other people share(d) those names but it'snotl ike homonyms aren't a thing and these names are tied to the only identity the vampires have. Just use an * to be clear who you mean.



Okay, so everyone are refreshed.

This might bring the question of -
Did Hilga scry again or not?

Not sure if they have a decent item to base the scry on.
I can't think of any item they would have that would belong to a vampire('s host) and they cn't replicate the "drinking fluid trick" since Little Whisker isn't with them. Of course they could get a lucky roll, but what are the odds of that? :smallwink:

[Concept]

I assume blackwing is saying "I told you so," as in eat crow.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Well, this is a first: a black-and-baby-blue speech balloon, and I am rocking it.

[WindStruck]

It could be that while the worm is fighting, it accidentally opens a hole in the ceiling on the vampires. It's a long shot but that would be funny. :smallbiggrin:

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm curious what language the vampire is speaking with the 'not-purple worm'. :smallconfused:

[JohnnyTurbo]

So... is that thing a nightcrawler?

[xroads]

I just realized that the death worm has got its hands (errr.... jaws?), full. It can't really dig deep into the terrain. Instead it has to play goalie and deflect a half dozen potentially flying targets from breaching the perimeter.

[Ruck]

Haley's frustration with invisibility being dispelled: lesson learned (Guessing it came from one of her wands?)

It could have, but we've seen Vaarsuvius cast it on her before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html)

[Kantaki]

I'm going to start referring to this thing as Likable Deathworm now.

Wormy the likable Deathworm.:smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

It could have, but we've seen Vaarsuvius cast it on her before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html)

Invisibility ends when the invisible person attacks (among other triggers). The Greater version lets the unseen one attack while keeping it (which may make you appreciate Belkar's line way back when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) better).

The wand would save a spell slot, but I'm guessing V cast it on her for the Sneak Attack bonuses to apply.

[Resileaf]

Invisibility ends when the invisible person attacks (among other triggers). The Greater version lets the unseen one attack while keeping it (which may make you appreciate Belkar's line way back when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) better).

The wand would save a spell slot, but I'm guessing V cast it on her for the Sneak Attack bonuses to apply.

Not that undead can be sneak attacked.

[Peelee]

Not that undead can be sneak attacked.

Blah. My bad. Still lets her attack without being seen. Not quite as useful, though.

[Ruck]

Invisibility ends when the invisible person attacks (among other triggers). The Greater version lets the unseen one attack while keeping it (which may make you appreciate Belkar's line way back when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) better).

The wand would save a spell slot, but I'm guessing V cast it on her for the Sneak Attack bonuses to apply.

I had picked that up from the context of earlier strips. It also seems that Invisibility Purge would dispel either one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1056.html)

[understatement]

Isn't the worm undead? Haley won't have any Sneak Attacks, and the thing's immune to cold damage.

EDIT: ninja'ed.

whups

[Jasdoif]

So... is that thing a nightcrawler?All of the indications so far point in that direction, yes.



Invisibility ends when the invisible person attacks (among other triggers). The Greater version lets the unseen one attack while keeping it (which may make you appreciate Belkar's line way back when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) better).

The wand would save a spell slot, but I'm guessing V cast it on her for the Sneak Attack bonuses to apply.Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) also lasts ten times as long as greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm).

[Resileaf]

Personally, I assume that invisibility was meant for them to scout and get in position for their plan without being located, so greater invisibility, even extended (or especially extended), would have been a waste of high spell slot.

[zimmerwald1915]

Isn't the worm undead? Haley won't have any Sneak Attacks, and the thing's immune to cold damage.
I suspect the Order knows that, and that she and Vaarsuvius (who has a bunch of SR: yes spells and a bad track record at piercing SR) are playing distraction. They are both entirely useless in any other role.

[Peelee]

Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) also lasts ten times as long as greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm).
Yeah, with the Sneak Attack being off the table standard Invisibility is rapidly becoming the better option.

Personally, I assume that invisibility was meant for them to scout and get in position for their plan without being located, so greater invisibility, even extended (or especially extended), would have been a waste of high spell slot.
Yeah, with the Snea-whoah, déjà vu.

I suspect the Order knows that, and that she and Vaarsuvius (who has a bunch of SR: yes spells and a bad track record at piercing SR) are playing distraction. They are both entirely useless in any other role.

Nightcrawlers also have Greater Dispel Magic, so V can't even Forcecage.

[Lurtz]

I don't think anyone mentioned this before, but to me this strip seems like a fantastically-done reference to the guards scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail! :smallbiggrin:

[AutomatedTeller]

Very funny stuff :) the worm is awesome.

[Zorgoth]

Yeah, with the Sneak Attack being off the table standard Invisibility is rapidly becoming the better option.

Yeah, with the Snea-whoah, déjà vu.


Nightcrawlers also have Greater Dispel Magic, so V can't even Forcecage.

Forcecage is immune to Greater Dispel Magic, though I don't think a Gargantuan creature can realistically fit in a Forcecage (but it might at the size it's drawn).

[CosmicHobbit]

I relate to the worm on a spiritual level. This comic never fails to make me laugh!

[hamishspence]

I don't think a Gargantuan creature can realistically fit in a Forcecage (but it might at the size it's drawn).

The barred cage version would work - 20 ft cube - normal Gargantuan creatures have a 20 ft space.

[Peelee]

Forcecage is immune to Greater Dispel Magic, though I don't think a Gargantuan creature can realistically fit in a Forcecage (but it might at the size it's drawn).

Well dang, I should just stop trying to comment on the rules today.:smallredface:

[dtilque]

I assume blackwing is saying "I told you so," as in eat crow.

No, he's just confused by the worm talking about him as an invisible crow. He's a raven, so he assumes there must be another invisible bird around.

[JennTora]

This is why you shouldn't be so hateful to your summon creatures even when they're slightly annoying. It was a perfectly legitimate question that was important for the probably a nightcrawler to ask. I hope that this vampire cleric learns this lesson.

[Fyraltari]

This is why you shouldn't be so hateful to your summon creatures even when they're slightly annoying. It was a perfectly legitimate question that was important for the probably a nightcrawler to ask. I hope that this vampire cleric learns this lesson.

Paraphrasing another comic "He can't learn anything if that geets him killed".

[kenlund]

what is the range on dispelling magic or greater dispelling? If Haley and V lose their flying spells, it looks like quite a drop at the moment.

[Particle_Man]

The standard nightcrawler is a genius with INT and WIS 20. I am getting a pedantic academic tone from this one. Though it is not perceptive enough to tell the difference between a crow and a raven: "not my field of expertise" :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Have we ever seen the back of Gontor's head before? Because I thought him fully bald until that penultimate panel weirded me out for a moment.

[hamishspence]

Have we ever seen the back of Gontor's head before?

At least once before he became a vampire:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

[Fyraltari]

At least once before he became a vampire:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html
Oh right. Still looks weird.

[Peelee]

Oh right. Still looks weird.

Kind of like a half-tonsure.

[Oxenstierna]

Surprisingly chill dude, for an extraplanar undead abomination.
Apparently a Charisma of 18, I’m assuming it’s not for the attractive appearance!

[Fyraltari]

Kind of like a half-tonsure.

Tonsures, I can handle. But that one is level with his beard. Beards should not go around your head!

[Peelee]

Tonsures, I can handle. But that one is level with his beard. Beards should not go around your head!

Hmm. Tonsure beard is kind of weird. Maybe he calls that beard style a Drop D T. Yeah, a guitar joke while talking about beards, I'm bold like that.

[JumboWheat01]

Anti-illusion spells are always handy to have on hand, no matter your class.

[lenon3579]

Death Worm + Monster in the Darkness = Best Friends Forever

Top 10 Anime Friendships

[Canisius]

The crow/raven thing made me think of (Marvel's) Thor calling Rocket a rabbit.

[wolph42]

Awesome worm, I want it in my game too!

[Canisius]

Also, a little confused. A nightcrawler is all-black, but this is obviously a purple worm.

[zimmerwald1915]

The barred cage version would work - 20 ft cube - normal Gargantuan creatures have a 20 ft space.
However, the barred cage does not block line of effect; the nightcrawler could summon, could dispel Haley's and Vaarsuvius's flight, could cast cones of cold all over the place, etc.

[dps]

Considering the difficulty of dismissing it, I think it's more likely that the worm will be fought more normally.
Besides, the Order is due for a victory in battle.

There's no need for them to either fight or dismiss it. It's outside the orange barrier, so it can't enter the chamber anyway, unless it finds and goes through the same backdoor the Order is using.

Well, there are a few other ways around that, but I expect to see the orange barrier bit the ex-Exarch in the butt,

[Peelee]

Also, a little confused. A nightcrawler is all-black, but this is obviously a purple worm.

Obviously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html)?

[Canisius]

Obviously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html)?

Well, for starters, it's purple. And a Purple Worm is smaller than a Nightcrawler. That desert worm is easily twice the size of this charming fellow.

[zimmerwald1915]

There's no need for them to either fight or dismiss it. It's outside the orange barrier, so it can't enter the chamber anyway, unless it finds and goes through the same backdoor the Order is using.
The Order, with the exception of Durkon (and Hilgya, and Minrah), also can't pass through the orange barrier. And as long as the non-dwarf members remain outside the barrier, the nightcrawler will, as seems to be its preference, try to eat them. The Order would probably prefer to avoid that, and as such will probably fight the nightcrawler with the objectives of first, getting Durkon and co. through the barrier and second, securing their own personal safety.

[hamishspence]

Well, for starters, it's purple. And a Purple Worm is smaller than a Nightcrawler. That desert worm is easily twice the size of this charming fellow.
The desert one is probably Advanced Purple Worm.

This one has a very different head, so it probably isn't a templated version of the desert one.

Its See Invisibility power, it being a minion of Hel, northern goddess of death and the undead, these suggest "nightcrawler".

[Canisius]

The desert one is probably Advanced Purple Worm.

This one has a very different head, so it probably isn't a templated version of the desert one.

Its See Invisibility power, it being a minion of Hel, northern goddess of death and the undead, these suggest "nightcrawler".

Thank you, sir or madam. =)

[understatement]

Wait, it's purple?

I always thought it was blue.

moving along...

[Jasdoif]

The desert one is probably Advanced Purple Worm.

This one has a very different head, so it probably isn't a templated version of the desert one.

Its See Invisibility power, it being a minion of Hel, northern goddess of death and the undead, these suggest "nightcrawler".It also appears nearly identical to the nightcrawler in AMfES.

[zimmerwald1915]

It also appears nearly identical to the nightcrawler in AMfES.
I do hope Mr. Burlew is paying you for advertising his work :smallamused:

[Goblin_Priest]

Nightcrawlers have See Invisibility as an at-will spell-like ability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler

Indeed:


Spell-Like Abilities: At will—contagion (DC 18), deeper darkness, detect magic, greater dispel magic, haste, invisibility, see invisibility, unholy blight (DC 18); 3/day—cone of cold (DC 19), confusion (DC 18), hold monster (DC 19); 1/day—finger of death (DC 21), mass hold monster (DC 23), plane shift (DC 21). Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Though if he can plane shift once per day, why need to be called by a Gate to begin with? Couldn't Hel just tell him to go beforehand?

Also, aside from a few spell-likes, that create sucks against flying enemies... it's got no ranged attacks, its abilities are all geared towards melee. Luckily it has greater dispel magic at will, though, if it truly is a nightcrawler.

[Jasdoif]

Though if he can plane shift once per day, why need to be called by a Gate to begin with? Couldn't Hel just tell him to go beforehand?Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) doesn't have the five-to-five-hundred mile inaccuracy that plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) does.

[Fyraltari]

Though if he can plane shift once per day, why need to be called by a Gate to begin with? Couldn't Hel just tell him to go beforehand?

She can't just send any monster she likes without a Cleric summoning them. If she could she'd send Garm with an army of Death Giants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).

[gatemansgc]

also, despite how long ago strip 1051 came out, it was less than a week from this one in comic time. i'm imagining that's what haley's second line was about, cause she went "pointy death incarnate" against the frost giants.

[Doug Lampert]

what is the range on dispelling magic or greater dispelling? If Haley and V lose their flying spells, it looks like quite a drop at the moment.

Not a problem. Dispel is as if the duration had ended, fly lets you down gently if the duration ends.

[ti'esar]

The giant death worm steals the show. Did not see that coming.

[Ruck]

also, despite how long ago strip 1051 came out, it was less than a week from this one in comic time. i'm imagining that's what haley's second line was about, cause she went "pointy death incarnate" against the frost giants.

Yes, that's what I assumed.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Please please please let V somehow cast "irresistible dance" on the worm.

I really really want to see him dance. I don't care about SR, or spell level, or that maybe he isn't a "living" creature, or whatever. Please, make him dance.

[zimmerwald1915]

Please please please let V somehow cast "irresistible dance" on the worm.

I really really want to see him dance. I don't care about SR, or spell level, or that maybe he isn't a "living" creature, or whatever. Please, make him dance.
Well, you won't get it by a mind-affecting spell cast on an undead creature.

[vegetalss4]

what is the range on dispelling magic or greater dispelling? If Haley and V lose their flying spells, it looks like quite a drop at the moment.


Not a problem. Dispel is as if the duration had ended, fly lets you down gently if the duration ends.

Doug is correct but on the off chance that you are still interested in the answer, the range of Dispel Magic (and it's greater version) is 100 ft +10 ft per caster level, which is a lot longer than the range of invisibility purge.

-

One interesting detail of invisibility purge, is that it only suppresses rather than dispel invisibility within it's radius, so if Gontor goes through the orange gate and gets his magic dispelled the Order would turn invisible again, unless they would have lost it for some other reason by then. (Assuming of course that the Giant choose to use that detail of the spell).

[Gusion]

Well, you won't get it by a mind-affecting spell cast on an undead creature.

That falls under the "whatever" category. [Edit: it also falls under the "living creature" part which per RAW means no undead.] Don't be a killjoy.

He seems to be plenty mindful to me, DM waves your objection away.

[vegetalss4]

That falls under the "whatever" category. [Edit: it also falls under the "living creature" part which per RAW means no undead.] Don't be a killjoy.

He seems to be plenty mindful to me, DM waves your objection away.

Surely the superior way to get it to dance would be for Elan to play a jaunty tune for it, rather than by waving the immunity it shares with all other intelligent undead by appealing to a trait it also shares with all other intelligent undead.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't be a killjoy.

Have you met me? :smalleek:

[ManuelSacha]

Paranoid much, Blackwing? :smallamused:

[Rrmcklin]

Well, for starters, it's purple. And a Purple Worm is smaller than a Nightcrawler. That desert worm is easily twice the size of this charming fellow.

Purple is often used as a substitute for black, because giving depth and dimension to black objects is more difficult.

[Gusion]

Surely the superior way to get it to dance would be for Elan to play a jaunty tune for it, rather than by waving the immunity it shares with all other intelligent undead by appealing to a trait it also shares with all other intelligent undead.

I'm perfectly happy with this solution too.

I just think he'd be so.... *cute* dancing.

[ImpSpell]

What did I miss?

The orange barrier was supposed to keep out non-dwarves AND dispel active magic on anyone passing through.

Did Durkon manage to slip in some false information?

[Ruck]

What did I miss?

The orange barrier was supposed to keep out non-dwarves AND dispel active magic on anyone passing through.

Did Durkon manage to slip in some false information?

Haley and Vaarsuvius haven't passed through the orange barrier.

[The_Weirdo]

It is the mark of a professional to make sure they know what their client wants and any details on how to achieve it. Kudos to the worm on that regard.

[zimmerwald1915]

Haley and Vaarsuvius haven't passed through the orange barrier.
Nor will they.

[Anarion]

The eyeless worm being able to detect invisibility at long range feels a little unfair.

[Peelee]

The eyeless worm being able to detect invisibility at long range feels a little unfair.

The earless birds always chirping up a storm to try to get a mate by their songs seems a little unfair.

[Reboot]

" 'Sorry, did I say something wrong?' said Marvin, dragging himself on regardless. 'Pardon me for breathing, which I never do anyway so I don't know why I bother to say it, "

[zimmerwald1915]

The earless birds always chirping up a storm to try to get a mate by their songs seems a little unfair.
And the deaf ear will hear when the mute songbird sings his song of the joy at the heart of all things.

[Gusion]

Have you met me? :smalleek:

Not to my knowledge. This online stuff doesn't count.

But fine, yeah, I mean, they obviously have a plan here. But if I were V at this point probably, oh. I don't know. Reverse gravity maybe, it is hard to tell how big the creature really is based on what we've seen, so maybe the entire thing would go flying up. No SR, no save. Ideally it could get both of them.

Yes, they could dispel it, but that's not a guarantee. It is a very useful spell all in all, because if they dispel it after one round then they fall again - maybe with luck get 20d6 worth of damage - 10 each way.

Other options would be rock to mud or a greater shout at the ceiling. I'd have to chat with the DM on how he'd do that before casting though. Can't vote if I bring the whole thing down, so pure unmitigated destruction is a perfectly valid way of saving the world here.

[Kareasint]

Purple is often used as a substitute for black, because giving depth and dimension to black objects is more difficult.

I suspect that seeing this in book form may also be a reason. Rich may have selected this color to allow details to still be visible when put into the book format. He has noted in the past where he selected a color for the online comic and it turned out to be completely unusable for a book.

[ijuinkun]

I kind of assumed anything that can use see invisibility freely would always have it running.

Or at least it had it running because it had just been given a guard duty assignment. Anyway, Hel made a good call by giving this worm some brains.

[RicB76]

I think Blackwing is also busy looking for the worm food.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love the Nightcrawler. Partly because the Monty Python jokes write themselves, but also partly because he’ll definitely make an interesting fight for the Order. I wonder if, so as not to upstage the fight with the former High Priest of Hel, something is going to happen so that it’s not quite a full fight. Something like the Nightcrawler leaving early, or the Order having a surprise up their sleeve.

Also, it took me a little longer than I’d like to admit to get what Blackwing was saying. Poor raven.

[137beth]

Loving this creature's attitude:smallsmile:
I'm looking forwards to this battle.

[ImpSpell]

Haley and Vaarsuvius haven't passed through the orange barrier.

Ah! Thanks. Somehow I kept seeing it as them having gotten past already, and turning back to look at him as he cast the spell to make them visible.

[FireJustice]

there's a point in power in a campaign that using invisibility (as 2nd spell level Invisibility) is just plain insulting.

Everybody gets it so early.
Any villain worth its salt (like, more than 3HD) will know about invisibility.
Even belkar knows about the IMPROVED invisibility ffs

[darkness@noon]

[QUOTE=hamishspence;23784646]Nightcrawlers have See Invisibility as an at-will spell-like ability:


OMG that's SO broken.

What about a nice Pathfinder nightcrawler that gets a charisma bonus to HP and more cold spells?

Yah baby. No "see invisibility" any more!

(I use nightshades to stalk my silver dragon-led party ...so it's only fair that they can stalk back!)

[Rogar Demonblud]

If we're trying an Irresistable Dance spell, can we toss in a Hideous Laughter as well? I want to see if Wormy has a better Evil LaughTM than the Exarch.

[kenlund]

what is the range on dispelling magic or greater dispelling? If Haley and V lose their flying spells, it looks like quite a drop at the moment.


Not a problem. Dispel is as if the duration had ended, fly lets you down gently if the duration ends.


Doug is correct but on the off chance that you are still interested in the answer, the range of Dispel Magic (and it's greater version) is 100 ft +10 ft per caster level, which is a lot longer than the range of invisibility purge.


It didn't seem like they landed gently when the Frost Giants dispelled magic on V and Haley during the fight in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1059.html
That was the strip I was using as precedence that they would fall and not gently. At least it seemed pretty hard in 1059 when compared to the time V used feather fall on Haley when she was defenestrated out of Tarquin's palace.

Thanks for the answering!

[Living Oxymoron]

I bet 100gp V is using Sunburst in the next strips.

[Emperor Time]

He's pretty funny for a death-worm.

[Ridureyu]

Guys, I think that the worm is immortal and unkillable. Think about it: No eyes = No X's for eyes = No death!

[ratfox]

Wait, the giant worm doesn't have eyes... So it cannot die, right?

EDIT: dammit, ninja'd.

[pearl jam]

Poes are ever a little slow on the uptake
- a Raven, of course :smallsmile:

Wouldn't the raven say, "evermore a little slow"? :biggrin:

[locksmith of lo]

can the three dwarves bluff their way in by saying they are thralls? :smallsmile:

[Blatt]

That worm has all the makings of an underling who takes instructions so literally that it's effectively useless. I mean, if the OOTS fly in over the platform then the worm doesn't need to take any action, right?!

[Fyraltari]

It is the mark of a professional to make sure they know what their client wants and any details on how to achieve it. Kudos to the worm on that regard.

I agree, I mean when working with undeads "can I destroy the corpses or do you want to use them" is a perfectly valid question.

[warmachine]

Indeed, if you're a Cleric that can cast Invisibility Purge and didn't prepare it, you're a fool. Unless your party has other countermeasures to Invisibility.

If you're a mage of the appropriate level and didn't prepare Invisibility, you're also a fool. Even if you know the enemy has countermeasures, you can usually get a tactical advantage before the invisibility fails.

[Malphegor]

From memory, aren't crows and ravens mechanically identical in 3.5? So that's a fun little thing there in this episode, nobody can tell them apart except via fluff

It is cool to see an intelligent worm though. Unsurprisingly uncommon in most media.

On invisibility, even at the lowest levels (like 1-5) I've seen wizards tend to prep glitterdust or carry bags of flour on their person because ugh invisibility

[zimmerwald1915]

I bet 100gp V is using Sunburst in the next strips.
An SR: yes spell? Bet taken.

[Ghosty]

An SR: yes spell? Bet taken.

Won't touch the nightcrawler, as you already imply, but it'd wreck shop on the two vampires. What are the odds it would kill both of them outright?

Since that can't happen---hard to have a dramatic vote if the entity beguiling the voters gets ashed in an instant---I predict the Giant will find some way to quickly nerf V. Despite what Doug wrote earlier in the thread, would dispelling V's fly spell, especially while V was in the middle of casting, cause the spell to fizzle or for V to be sufficiently injured to take hir out of the fight?

[zimmerwald1915]

Won't touch the nightcrawler, as you already imply, but it'd wreck shop on the two vampires. What are the odds it would kill both of them outright?
Nil. One's already through the orange barrier through which spells cannot pass, and the other will be through it in short order, likely before Vaarsuvius can cast anything.


Since that can't happen---hard to have a dramatic vote if the entity beguiling the voters gets ashed in an instant---I predict the Giant will find some way to quickly nerf V. Despite what Doug wrote earlier in the thread, would dispelling V's fly spell, especially while V was in the middle of casting, cause the spell to fizzle or for V to be sufficiently injured to take hir out of the fight?
Merely dispelling would not injure Vaarsuvius, and while falling damage (which the ordinary fly spell does not permit, but which the OOTS version seems to) would hurt, it would not hurt much. . . unless Vaarsuvius missed the bridge on her way down and fell into the chasm. Which would also be an excellent way of removing her (and Elan, who would be dispatched to heal her or retrieve her body) from the scene.

[KrankenWagon]

would dispelling V's fly spell, especially while V was in the middle of casting, cause the spell to fizzle or for V to be sufficiently injured to take hir out of the fight?

Dispelling the fly would still trigger the feather fall condition, so no fall damage, so probably not

[Ghosty]

What's the potential duration of the nightcrawler remaining on the Prime? Infinite? Or is it going to go back to Hel's domain, and if so, when? If, for example, Durkon uses that shiny new-to-him hammer to give this cavern a skylight, and thereby drive off the nightshade, will the nightshade hang around forever? Or will it zip back to Hel, either on it's own with Plane Shift, or because some other duration expired?

[Ghosty]

Nil. One's already through the orange barrier through which spells cannot pass, and the other will be through it in short order, likely before Vaarsuvius can cast anything.


Merely dispelling would not injure Vaarsuvius, and while falling damage (which the ordinary fly spell does not permit, but which the OOTS version seems to) would hurt, it would not hurt much. . . unless Vaarsuvius missed the bridge on her way down and fell into the chasm. Which would also be an excellent way of removing her (and Elan, who would be dispatched to heal her or retrieve her body) from the scene.

I see the second vamp has crossed back over the barrier, but the Exarch could make it back before V lets off that hypothetical Sunburst? He's in range now, and V looks like s/he's ready to cast.

I was anticipating V falling into the depths of the cavern, missing the bridge. Haley, OTOH, with her Dex score and ranks in Tumble, I'd expect to hit the bridge.

[Ghosty]

Dispelling the fly would still trigger the feather fall condition, so no fall damage, so probably not

I missed the feather fall condition. When was that established? Because, as already noted in the thread, they hit like sacks of cement when they got dispelled in the frost giant fight. I was thinking a similar fall, over a deep chasm, would go poorly for V.

[KrankenWagon]

I missed the feather fall condition. When was that established? Because, as already noted in the thread, they hit like sacks of cement when they got dispelled in the frost giant fight. I was thinking a similar fall, over a deep chasm, would go poorly for V.

The feather fall is RAW, but as you mentioned, yes Rich does seem to have forgotten/is ignoring it so we can probably assume it doesn't exist in OOTSverse. In that case, yes if V misses the bridge he might be out for a while depending on how deep that chasm is.

[Jay R]

The feather fall is RAW, but as you mentioned, yes Rich does seem to have forgotten/is ignoring it so we can probably assume it doesn't exist in OOTSverse. In that case, yes if V misses the bridge he might be out for a while depending on how deep that chasm is.

This is a comic strip. RAW in that scenario is "only when it's funny."

[Goblin_Priest]

Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) doesn't have the five-to-five-hundred mile inaccuracy that plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) does.

Well, if he had done so the moment the plot was hatched... ;)


She can't just send any monster she likes without a Cleric summoning them. If she could she'd send Garm with an army of Death Giants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html).

Does Garm and the death giants have plane shift, though? It's unclear whether she can't send minions to get there on their own, or... personally planeshift them herself.

[Kish]

The feather fall is RAW, but as you mentioned, yes Rich does seem to have forgotten/is ignoring it so we can probably assume it doesn't exist in OOTSverse.
I don't think Rich is ignoring it. "The feather fall" is "The subject floats downward 60 feet per round." Running into the ground at a speed of ten feet a second strikes me as exactly what's depicted when the giant dispels the Fly, and there's no indication anyone took actual damage from it rather than just having their teeth jarred.

I wonder where Roy is.

[White_Mouse]

Panel 8 is inspired by Philosoraptor, is it not?

[KrankenWagon]

I don't think Rich is ignoring it. "The feather fall" is "The subject floats downward 60 feet per round." Running into the ground at a speed of ten feet a second strikes me as exactly what's depicted when the giant dispels the Fly, and there's no indication anyone took actual damage from it rather than just having their teeth jarred.

Quick check of an online physics calculator has 10 ft/s being the landing velocity of someone who fell around half a meter (or a foot and a half for us Americans). I hardly think that's going to jar your teeth much. Plus when V used feather fall in the Black Dragon's cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) we saw everyone land softly.

[Skull the Troll]

I don't think Rich is ignoring it. "The feather fall" is "The subject floats downward 60 feet per round." Running into the ground at a speed of ten feet a second strikes me as exactly what's depicted when the giant dispels the Fly, and there's no indication anyone took actual damage from it rather than just having their teeth jarred.

I wonder where Roy is.

Exactly. 3 meters per second is about what you would experience if you were pushed off a 5 foot high fence. Painful, but not particularly dangerous for a fit person used to taking falls. The math on the feather fall is interesting to me however. In my game play we always treated this as being a a significantly less jarring fall than even a controlled parachute landing. I dont think anyone was ever high enough to simply not have have landed in a single round.

[warmachine]

What gets me is that for the purple worm to have a language (that others understand), it must be part of a society. As purple worms are normally dumb animals, the worm shown must have joined one. I wanna know what kind of society doesn't freak out in the midst of an 80ft long carnivore. Unless a soul got shoved into the body of a purple worm with vocal cords.

[Jasdoif]

What gets me is that for the purple worm to have a language (that others understand), it must be part of a society. As purple worms are normally dumb animals, the worm shown must have joined one. I wanna know what kind of society doesn't freak out in the midst of an 80ft long carnivore. Unless a soul got shoved into the body of a purple worm with vocal cords.Or if it's actually a nightcrawler.

[Riftwolf]

Exactly. 3 meters per second is about what you would experience if you were pushed off a 5 foot high fence. Painful, but not particularly dangerous for a fit person used to taking falls. The math on the feather fall is interesting to me however. In my game play we always treated this as being a a significantly less jarring fall than even a controlled parachute landing. I dont think anyone was ever high enough to simply not have have landed in a single round.

I ran one once. Sorcerer got grappled by a Ogre Mage Monk, lifted 200ft off the ground then flurry of blowed before being allowed to drop. He survived the attack, and below were two paladins whose plan was 'we stand directly underneath him with our hands up, then as soon as he hits us we cast lay on hands'.

Back to the comic

That caverns looking kinda roomy. Some huge creatures could fight in there. It'd be a shame if the vampires tried the same dispel tactics and hit a polymorphed Extreminator... (not that an allosaur is a match for Likeable Deathworm)

[Peelee]

Panel 8 is inspired by Philosoraptor, is it not?
It is not.

Quick check of an online physics calculator has 10 ft/s being the landing velocity of someone who fell around half a meter (or a foot and a half for us Americans). I hardly think that's going to jar your teeth much. Plus when V used feather fall in the Black Dragon's cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html) we saw everyone land softly.
We saw everyone prepared to land vs unexpectedly fall with the frost giants.

[Vulsutyr]

I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility?

[Vulsutyr]

What gets me is that for the purple worm to have a language (that others understand), it must be part of a society. As purple worms are normally dumb animals, the worm shown must have joined one. I wanna know what kind of society doesn't freak out in the midst of an 80ft long carnivore. Unless a soul got shoved into the body of a purple worm with vocal cords.

We have already seen a purple worm in the comic, and not only was it much bigger, it was actually purple.

[KrankenWagon]

I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility?

IIRC Invisibility purge has a constant effect, rather than Greater Dispel's immediate effect, so it can catch anyone else sneaking up invisibly. Although as the Nightcrawler has at will see invis, it will only be useful if the Ex-arch or maybe some of the other vamps/thralls will fight the order

[KorvinStarmast]

I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility? The Nightcrawler sees the invisible characters; Gontor purges the invisibility so that everyone else can see them too.

[Jasdoif]

I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility?It could possibly fail the dispel check, and if it tried to dispel more than one of them, it might have dispelled something other than the invisibility....Although I'm pretty sure the Exarch's decision was primarily about believing he should deal with it himself if he wanted it done.

[White_Mouse]

It is not.
Come on, the whole wondering about things and that final head close-up.

[zimmerwald1915]

It could possibly fail the dispel check
Not remotely likely. Vaarsuvius casts at CL 17, so her spells have a dispel DC of 28. Any spells from wands would almost certainly have lower CL. The nightcrawler dispels with a CL of 25, and so can only fail a dispel check against Vaarsuvius's spells on a roll of 1 or 2, and probably auto-succeeds against any wand's spells.

[Riftwolf]

I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility?

Rule one of summoning a Likeable Deathworm; use *your* abilities in support so LDW can use his/hers for attacks. While its dispel would be more effective than yours, you don't summon LDW to have it waste its turns.

[Jasdoif]

It could possibly fail the dispel checkNot remotely likely. Vaarsuvius casts at CL 17, so her spells have a dispel DC of 28. Any spells from wands would almost certainly have lower CL. The nightcrawler dispels with a CL of 25, and so can only fail a dispel check against Vaarsuvius's spells on a roll of 1 or 2, and probably auto-succeeds against any wand's spells.Greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) has a cap of +20 on the dispel check, so it'd fail on a roll of 1-7 against Vaarsuvius' spells. (I guess they couldn't figure out how to justify a capless superior dispel magic in a pre-epic game...for the core books, I mean.)

[Roderick_BR]

For me, that's a bit more of a "waitwaitwait, what?". That worm doesn't have any eyes, so how is it that it can see at all? And in any other context, I could see it picking up on intruders via Tremorsense, but then, it wouldn't pick up anything that's not on the ground (nor would it recognize that said adventurers are invisible if it did).

*sighs* I know, I know, magic, but it still seems like some balls were dropped here. (Not like that, wow that came out wrong.)
And it wouldn't be able to tell there was a human, and elf, and a crow (lol) instead of just "three intruders". The vampire also told it to be careful to tell the vampired and charmed people appart from everyone else.

[Ghosty]

Rule one of summoning a Likeable Deathworm; use *your* abilities in support so LDW can use his/hers for attacks. While its dispel would be more effective than yours, you don't summon LDW to have it waste its turns.

What attack would you have the nightcrawler Likeable Deathworm do instead of its innate GDM, given the range it looks like V, Haley and Blackwing are from the entrance? I guess Finger of Death at V maybe? (Scratch that, not at 25 ft and 5 ft every two levels; so 90 feet? They look further away than that.) Likewise, I don't think they're close enough for its quickened Cone of Cold. Mass Hold Monster would work, given Haley's bad Will save performance versus the vampires in the previous fight. (EDIT: The LDW can't know about the Mind Blank I think V still has running.) Unholy Blight looks alright too.

Getting the GDM to stick would at least get rid of the fly spell, and maybe a bunch of buffs, if the worm decided to target V with it.

Thanks for coming up with the LDW moniker; It's funnier and easier to write. I'm going to use it in the future for whatever [un]lifespan this critter has left.

[Ridureyu]

Rule #1 of Dispel Magic is, "it always works on the PCs."

[Lombard]

This is such a classic OoTS strip for me. Giant death worm shows up and instead of being like all "RAAWR" it has a personality and has a humorous workaday chat with the other miniboss. + D&D stuff about the invisibility.

[Peelee]

Come on, the whole wondering about things and that final head close-up.

I (http://www.seriousaboutshade.com.au/images/thinking-guy-looking-right.jpg) mean (https://images.freeart.com/comp/art-print/fa11877496/chef-thinking.jpg?units=in&ph=8.0&pw=10.0&fit=False) that's (https://ak8.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/21589018/thumb/1.jpg) an (https://previews.123rf.com/images/yacobchuk/yacobchuk1506/yacobchuk150600114/40816173-thinking-out-loud-old-thoughtful-man-touching-chin-with-his-hand-and-looking-up-while-thinking.jpg) incredibly (https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/young-person-thinking-looking-up-450w-728743618.jpg) common (https://comps.canstockphoto.com/young-man-looking-up-thinking-or-stock-photo_csp9172602.jpg) pose (https://t3.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/04/66/66/500_F_104666642_shTdgY0oBOgNqJrNnJ8m9BBPyv7TJfw2.j pg) though (https://as2.ftcdn.net/jpg/02/04/35/91/500_F_204359135_IXRcqpV3e25W3vnYReIdhJXamhabRyya.j pg).

[Fyraltari]

This is such a classic OoTS strip for me. Giant death worm shows up and instead of being like all "RAAWR" it has a personality and has a humorous workaday chat with the other miniboss. + D&D stuff about the invisibility.
When you work for a dwarf, you do indeed have a miniboss.

[Goblin_Priest]

For me, that's a bit more of a "waitwaitwait, what?". That worm doesn't have any eyes, so how is it that it can see at all? And in any other context, I could see it picking up on intruders via Tremorsense, but then, it wouldn't pick up anything that's not on the ground (nor would it recognize that said adventurers are invisible if it did).

*sighs* I know, I know, magic, but it still seems like some balls were dropped here. (Not like that, wow that came out wrong.)

The stats block doesn't say the worm is blind/sightless. Thus, even without eyes (that we know of), it can see.


I don’t play 3.5, but was the Invisiblity Purge necessary? Couldn’t the Nightcrawler used its at-will greater dispel magic to get rid of the invisibility?

It'd make for a stale story if we just saw the same generic spell being cast all the time. We just saw a bunch of dispels last fight and there may be more specific needs for it later in this fight. More interesting to use specific counters.


Rule #1 of Dispel Magic is, "it always works on the PCs."

100%.

[mjasghar]

With reference to dispelling fly
As shown in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html the feather fall effect from dispelling doesn’t work in OoTS afawk

[MinimanMidget]

The stats block doesn't say the worm is blind/sightless. Thus, even without eyes (that we know of), it can see.

Not only that, it's listed as having 60ft Darkvision. So yeah, it is absolutely not blind.

[Aquillion]

What's the potential duration of the nightcrawler remaining on the Prime? Infinite? Or is it going to go back to Hel's domain, and if so, when? If, for example, Durkon uses that shiny new-to-him hammer to give this cavern a skylight, and thereby drive off the nightshade, will the nightshade hang around forever? Or will it zip back to Hel, either on it's own with Plane Shift, or because some other duration expired?It was summoned with Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Probably it used the "longer service" version, with the cost waived because this is part of Hel's plan. That means that it will last until the service is done.

if it dies, it is permanently dead; it doesn't bamf home like a summoned creature does.

[understatement]

How's the fight going to go evenly? Haley and V are far-ranged but not the best against Deathworm, not really sure what Belkar can do, Elan'll provide support, and Roy can inflict a lot of damage but the worm has some powerful melee attacks.

Can Team Cleric just continually zap the worm until it's defeated?

[Ghosty]

It was summoned with Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm). Probably it used the "longer service" version, with the cost waived because this is part of Hel's plan. That means that it will last until the service is done.

if it dies, it is permanently dead; it doesn't bamf home like a summoned creature does.

So, conceivably a permanent PITA for the Dwarves, if the Order manages to, say, fill the cavern with daylight, and cause the nightshade to run off into some deeper caverns? Or can we expect that the LDW is likely to fanatically serve Hel, and not flee until killed?

I don't see that killing the Exarch and ending the vote-stealing plan will be enough to cause the LDW to think its service was concluded. I think the Order might have to kill it to get it to quit.

Bummer, it's a charismatic eldritch abomination.

[Aquillion]

So, conceivably a permanent PITA for the Dwarves, if the Order manages to, say, fill the cavern with daylight, and cause the nightshade to run off into some deeper caverns? Or can we expect that the LDW is likely to fanatically serve Hel, and not flee until killed?

I don't see that killing the Exarch and ending the vote-stealing plan will be enough to cause the LDW to think its service was concluded. I think the Order might have to kill it to get it to quit.

Bummer, it's a charismatic eldritch abomination.It depends on the terms of its contract. It might be considered "complete" at that point.

It's also possible that the gate was just used for transportation, of course, and Hel chose to send it through on her own. In that case it's there for good and has no way home.

[Borris]

It's also possible that the gate was just used for transportation, of course, and Hel chose to send it through on her own. In that case it's there for good and has no way home.

No way home except 1/day plane shift.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

If it turns out that there is an invisible crow unknown to the audience as yet, I will be incredibly happy. It's not every fiction that distinguishes the corvids from one another.

[KorvinStarmast]

If it turns out that there is an invisible crow unknown to the audience as yet, I will be incredibly happy. It's not every fiction that distinguishes the corvids from one another. When I have a cold, my name sounds like "korbidstarbast" ... does that count? :smallconfused:

The root of my character name and screen name is corvus, from the old Roman era boarding thing ... yeah, nautical things I like. :smallcool: Not a far walk from corvus to Korvin. :smallwink:

[Enero Irontoad]

For comedy, Panel 5 stands on its own pretty well. :smallbiggrin:

[ijuinkun]

How's the fight going to go evenly? Haley and V are far-ranged but not the best against Deathworm, not really sure what Belkar can do, Elan'll provide support, and Roy can inflict a lot of damage but the worm has some powerful melee attacks.

Can Team Cleric just continually zap the worm until it's defeated?

The LDW does not need to be killed at this point. The Order merely needs to keep it distracted until Team Cleric can sneak past the orange barrier, then they can withdraw.

[Kish]

Can Team Cleric just continually zap the worm until it's defeated?
Zap it how?

[Ghosty]

Zap it how?
Maybe s/he meant Turning it? Good luck with that, BTW.

I don't have a reasonable guess for their chances of turning it, but looking at the stats at the SRD, it doesn't look good.

[mjasghar]

Dismissal or banishment - whichever works for this situation since it’s extraplanar

[kenlund]

Rule #1 of Dispel Magic is, "it always works on the PCs."

And even if you roll well, dispel magic almost always fails when a D&D character uses it. Every campaign I have ever played, the DM usually has some excuse why Dispel Magic doesn't work in an encounter. If it worked, it would screw up the the narrative the DM has planned for the encounter...so it is always nerfed. I don't ever bother to prepare that spell...waste of a spell slot for a PC.

Another example of a spell that almost always works on the PCs is blindness. The DM usually has some reason it needs to work for the encounter to go as he has planned it...so it does...

[Peelee]

And even if you roll well, dispel magic almost always fails when a D&D character uses it. Every campaign I have ever played, the DM usually has some excuse why Dispel Magic doesn't work in an encounter. If it worked, it would screw up the the narrative the DM has planned for the encounter...so it is always nerfed. I don't ever bother to prepare that spell...waste of a spell slot for a PC.

Another example of a spell that almost always works on the PCs is blindness. The DM usually has some reason it needs to work for the encounter to go as he has planned it...so it does...

Have you tried playing with a different DM?

[InvisibleBison]

Maybe s/he meant Turning it? Good luck with that, BTW.

I don't have a reasonable guess for their chances of turning it, but looking at the stats at the SRD, it doesn't look good.

Unless the Order found a 21st level cleric somewhere, they've got exactly zero chance of turning it. The nightcrawler has 25 Hit Dice, and it's not possible to turn an undead whose HD exceed your cleric level by more than 4.

[Ghosty]

Unless the Order found a 21st level cleric somewhere, they've got exactly zero chance of turning it. The nightcrawler has 25 Hit Dice, and it's not possible to turn an undead whose HD exceed your cleric level by more than 4.

Isn't there some meta magic juju, but for turning, where the Cleric's effective level for turning is a lot higher? Or some prestige class/combination of feats that accomplishes the same thing?

None of which Durkon or Hilgya have (so far as we know) so a moot point.

Though it's clearly not the main goal of our intrepid party, if you were trying to kill the LDW, with the Order's resources, how would you go about it? I'd think Roy, and his undead-whacking sword, would have to play a major role.

[Living Oxymoron]

An SR: yes spell? Bet taken.

I never said the spell is going to work. :smallbiggrin:

[Goblin_Priest]

Zapping could be... fireballs... and chain lightning... and such other evocation spells?


And even if you roll well, dispel magic almost always fails when a D&D character uses it. Every campaign I have ever played, the DM usually has some excuse why Dispel Magic doesn't work in an encounter. If it worked, it would screw up the the narrative the DM has planned for the encounter...so it is always nerfed. I don't ever bother to prepare that spell...waste of a spell slot for a PC.

Another example of a spell that almost always works on the PCs is blindness. The DM usually has some reason it needs to work for the encounter to go as he has planned it...so it does...

Ha, I used Mage's Disjunction once at our table. I could also say, I was the one who cast it for the first and last time. It completely shut down the enemy party, and we then mopped them up silly. It was stupidly powerful, and was banned.

But other than its power, it was also annoyingly tedious to re-calculate all of the stats for all of the NPCs. High-level characters are so reliant on gear, and have so much... and then you gotta roll for each item... Took quite a while to resolve that 1 action.

Yea, I agreed with his decision to ban the spell.


Have you tried playing with a different DM?

Yea, banning (Greater) Dispel Magic (or even worse just making it useless) seems a bit much.

[Riftwolf]

Thanks for coming up with the LDW moniker; It's funnier and easier to write. I'm going to use it in the future for whatever [un]lifespan this critter has left.

You're welcome XD I have a track record of naming the undead on this forum.

[factotum]

But other than its power, it was also annoyingly tedious to re-calculate all of the stats for all of the NPCs. High-level characters are so reliant on gear, and have so much... and then you gotta roll for each item... Took quite a while to resolve that 1 action.

Yea, I agreed with his decision to ban the spell.


If I were DMing that I would have just had most of the NPC's gear make their Will save against the spell and have only the weakest stuff be affected. Or, if I did legitimately roll separately for every item, any high-powered item that got disjoined would lead to some very nasty consequences later in the adventure.

[Doug Lampert]

If I were DMing that I would have just had most of the NPC's gear make their Will save against the spell and have only the weakest stuff be affected. Or, if I did legitimately roll separately for every item, any high-powered item that got disjoined would lead to some very nasty consequences later in the adventure.

You don't need to add any unpleasant consequences to disjunction. It's a spell that destroys your loot when it works as intended. (Greater dispel magic is a far better deal.)

And by the time it comes on line, artifacts aren't unreasonable, and if one is present and fails its save, then Will save DC 25 or make a new character, and a 95% chance that you battle gets a lot tougher as something like a god shows up on the other side.

Yep, that's a spell I want to cast. (OTOH I had a sign outside a dungeon once, "This Dungeon Protected by Disjunction Traps," and no PC ever even tried to find out if it was true, they just went elsewhere.)

[Fish]

Would magically created sunlight pass through the anti-magic barrier? It’s just light.

[Jasdoif]

Would magically created sunlight pass through the anti-magic barrier? It’s just light.Magically created light isn't going to do much. Magically creating a sun to produce sunlight should work, but doing that poses some hefty challenges.

[Fyraltari]

Would magically created sunlight pass through the anti-magic barrier? It’s just light.

That depends on wether the barriers are filtering light or emitting it. And then there's the question of how "sunlight" is differenciated from other forms of light.

[zimmerwald1915]

Magically created light isn't going to do much. Magically creating a sun to produce sunlight should work, but doing that poses some hefty challenges.
You can create a miniature sun with a wish spell, but the monkey's paw is that a four-tentacled beastie latches onto your brain and begins influencing/controlling your actions.

[Jasdoif]

You can create a miniature sun with a wish spell, but the monkey's paw is that a four-tentacled beastie latches onto your brain and begins influencing/controlling your actions.And probably something about the ambient temperature rising.

[Kish]

You can create a miniature sun with a wish spell, but the monkey's paw is that a four-tentacled beastie latches onto your brain and begins influencing/controlling your actions.
Is this a reference I don't get?

[Fish]

Magically created light isn't going to do much. Magically creating a sun to produce sunlight should work, but doing that poses some hefty challenges.
Sunburst damages undead by virtue of the ultraviolet light produced. The terms of the spell are a little vague whether the light is somehow delimited to the spell’s radius or whether the light goes beyond it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Is this a reference I don't get?
Sam Raimi's version of Dr. Octopus.

[Jasdoif]

Sunburst damages undead by virtue of the ultraviolet light produced. The terms of the spell are a little vague whether the light is somehow delimited to the spell’s radius or whether the light goes beyond it.First, I don't think that follows: the ultraviolet light from sunburst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) allows it to damage "fungi, mold, oozes and slimes just as if they were undead creatures"; I think it's a step too far to assume ultraviolet light is also what damages undead.

Second of all, it doesn't matter: only creatures in the burst take the damage; if the barrier does indeed block spells (rather than just dispelling creates/objects as they pass through), then it blocks line of effect and the burst doesn't extend past it (nor can the spell be cast into it from the other side).

[Goblin_Priest]

If I were DMing that I would have just had most of the NPC's gear make their Will save against the spell and have only the weakest stuff be affected. Or, if I did legitimately roll separately for every item, any high-powered item that got disjoined would lead to some very nasty consequences later in the adventure.

That's just ass. When my sorcerer used it at the table, we all agreed "never again", I got to repick a new spell for the spell slot, and all was good. Your solution is to arbitrarily cripple the spell, and then punish the player for using it at an arbitrary later date?


You don't need to add any unpleasant consequences to disjunction. It's a spell that destroys your loot when it works as intended. (Greater dispel magic is a far better deal.)

And by the time it comes on line, artifacts aren't unreasonable, and if one is present and fails its save, then Will save DC 25 or make a new character, and a 95% chance that you battle gets a lot tougher as something like a god shows up on the other side.

Yep, that's a spell I want to cast. (OTOH I had a sign outside a dungeon once, "This Dungeon Protected by Disjunction Traps," and no PC ever even tried to find out if it was true, they just went elsewhere.)

Oh, damn, lol. Technically we were playing Pathfinder, and comparing versions on the SRDs, I see the PF one is much better than the 3.5 one. In Pathfinder, the disjoining is only temporary, with a very small chance of actual destruction. It's quite a fair point that the loot destruction hurts in the 3.5 version, enough to make one seriously consider if it's even worth it. But on the other hand, against humanoids with levels, it makes the fight much, much easier, so basically free XP. And by the time you get the spell, if the campaign is quest/story based, it's probably nearing completion anyways.

We almost never see artifacts at our table, though.

[Kish]

Sam Raimi's version of Dr. Octopus.
Ah, thanks.

[factotum]

That's just ass. When my sorcerer used it at the table, we all agreed "never again", I got to repick a new spell for the spell slot, and all was good. Your solution is to arbitrarily cripple the spell, and then punish the player for using it at an arbitrary later date?

Um, I didn't say I'd do both, please don't put words in my mouth? It would either be the "not everything gets killed" or "Nasty stuff happens later". As for that second part, it actually says in the description of the spell that disjoining powerful magic items can draw the attention of powerful beings, so I'm not sure what your problem with that would be.

In any case, I find it kind of amusing that you think a solution where you're not allowed to cast the spell at all is somehow an improvement over there being consequences for casting it...

[Morquard]

That depends on wether the barriers are filtering light or emitting it. And then there's the question of how "sunlight" is differenciated from other forms of light.

Easy way to test: If it burns vampires it's sunlight. If it doesn't, it's not. :D

[Kish]

As for that second part, it actually says in the description of the spell that disjoining powerful magic items can draw the attention of powerful beings, so I'm not sure what your problem with that would be.
Rather, it says disjoining artifacts is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being. No indication of anyone but the wearer caring if you turn a ring of wizardry into a loop of metal.

Just as a point of factual accuracy here.

[schmunzel]

I wanna invite that Nightcrawler to my next game night. It's hilarious.

snacks included??




Invisibility ends when the invisible person attacks (among other triggers). The Greater version lets the unseen one attack while keeping it (which may make you appreciate Belkar's line way back when (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) better).

The wand would save a spell slot, but I'm guessing V cast it on her for the Sneak Attack bonuses to apply.

damn your link just made me appreciate the green sword hits undead thingy effect including Xykons comment I never spend a second thinking about before ...



Apparently a Charisma of 18, I’m assuming it’s not for the attractive appearance!

quite effective though if the threads comments are any indication :)


Well, if he had done so the moment the plot was hatched... ;)



Does Garm and the death giants have plane shift, though? It's unclear whether she can't send minions to get there on their own, or... personally planeshift them herself.

Hel cant be held accountable if her nightcrawlers choose to take their (hard earned) vacation in a spot were PCs randomly start popping up ...

sch

[Goblin_Priest]

Um, I didn't say I'd do both, please don't put words in my mouth? It would either be the "not everything gets killed" or "Nasty stuff happens later". As for that second part, it actually says in the description of the spell that disjoining powerful magic items can draw the attention of powerful beings, so I'm not sure what your problem with that would be.

In any case, I find it kind of amusing that you think a solution where you're not allowed to cast the spell at all is somehow an improvement over there being consequences for casting it...

It's already "not everything gets killed", though: there's a save. And as another said, the part about attracting powerful beings is about artifacts, which we basically never face, or if we face, it's in the final battle, so we probably don't care about the aftermath.

Nerfing it doesn't even address the problem, though, which is the complex recalculations that need a lot of time to basically remake those enemies from scratch. It's not so much a power issue as it is a gameplay/fun issue.

So yea, just like with rules on the number of minions one can have, nobody had any qualms about banning it.

I said that's "ass", because you essentially said you'd either cheat the results to nerf the player's action (sorcerers don't get many spells, choosing Mage's Disjunction came at the cost of many other powerful lvl 9 spells I could have taken instead), thus punishing that player for violating an unwritten rule he was not aware of, or you'd just arbitrarily punish him later for having used it, again, for violating an unwritten rule he was not aware of.

It's a bad way to handle problem spells. It's a kind of passive-aggressive stance where you punish a player arbitrarily without even telling him he's being punished? Because neither of these solutions respect the spell as written (which is what the player is going by) and could have been reasonably foreseen by him.


If I were DMing that I would have just had most of the NPC's gear make their Will save against the spell and have only the weakest stuff be affected. Or, if I did legitimately roll separately for every item, any high-powered item that got disjoined would lead to some very nasty consequences later in the adventure.

[understatement]

Durkon and Hilgya could spam lightning and Flame Strike? Its Reflex Save might not be the highest.