Dimension-related question

[Thedez]

This one's probably pretty easy. How many completely empty pocket dimensions are just kinda floating around to be found in the Astral Plane? For instance, when a Wizard dies, if they've cast Genesis, I imagine their pocket dimension remains. But if that's the case, then could one bump into it? Would it be possible for someone, with sufficient Knowledge(The Planes) ranks, to discover and/or know about this empty pocket dimension and use it for themselves? How likely would it be to be invaded and whatnot?

[Hackulator]

Interesting question.

I don't think you could just "bump into it", though I'm not exactly an expert on the astral plane.

If you somehow learned enough about it with mundane means, for example by going over the dead Wizard's books and notes, you could probably Plane shift there.

You could use Divination spells to get enough information about abandoned Demiplanes to Plane Shift to one. This would require some finagling but after recently looking over divination spells you could eventually get it done by RAW.

With Gate it's much easier, but for Plane Shift you need to know what kind of metal rod you use to get to some weird custom plane.

Using Divination to discover a totally abandoned and forgotten Demiplane could be a cool way to get an awesome base.

[Thedez]

Hackulator, my man, you just put a very, very cool feather in my hat.
As a question, then, what's the earliest that you think someone could discover one of these abandoned planes and how to get to it?

[Hackulator]

Hackulator, my man, you just put a very, very cool feather in my hat.
As a question, then, what's the earliest that you think someone could discover one of these abandoned planes and how to get to it?

Entirely up to your DM. Please note I said doable by RAW, not easy or necessarily going to happen. At the very least you'd need Commune and Plane Shift so level 9 at the earliest.

[Particle_Man]

Well if they have enough rods of security research time is no problem.

[Thedez]

Entirely up to your DM. Please note I said doable by RAW, not easy or necessarily going to happen. At the very least you'd need Commune and Plane Shift so level 9 at the earliest.

I can work those. Thanks, though, this gives me a lot to work with.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Hackulator
Using Divination to discover a totally abandoned and forgotten Demiplane could be a cool way to get an awesome base.

Now I'm imagining demiplane prospectors cruising the Astral Plane, spamming divinations in a race to find all the best pocket dimensions.

[Thedez]

Now I'm imagining demiplane prospectors cruising the Astral Plane, spamming divinations in a race to find all the best pocket dimensions.
When Deadlands meets D&D.

[Deophaun]

The astral plane is infinite in size. To give you some sense of scale, our universe--with its 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars only in the observable part--isn't. The chance of randomly bumping into a demiplane is practically nonexistent. And things don't get much better if you're actively looking for demiplanes to bump into, because there are ubiquitous clouds and storms and color whirlpools that are going to make seeing (your best bet, because divinations tend to be more limited in range) even a few hundred miles out problematic.

No, if you're going to find a demiplane, it's going to be done by studying a forgotten tome or delving into a forbidden ruin or the like, not traipsing across the astral sea and hoping you get lucky.

[magic9mushroom]

The spell Genesis is cast on the Ethereal Plane, not the Astral. It's only the power Genesis that's on the Astral Plane. Why? I dunno.

[Thedez]

The astral plane is infinite in size. To give you some sense of scale, our universe--with its 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars only in the observable part--isn't. The chance of randomly bumping into a demiplane is practically nonexistent. And things don't get much better if you're actively looking for demiplanes to bump into, because there are ubiquitous clouds and storms and color whirlpools that are going to make seeing (your best bet, because divinations tend to be more limited in range) even a few hundred miles out problematic.

No, if you're going to find a demiplane, it's going to be done by studying a forgotten tome or delving into a forbidden ruin or the like, not traipsing across the astral sea and hoping you get lucky.

So, the uptick I'm getting from this is that interlopers--At least, ones that know where they are and thus are likely to have available countermeasures--Are unlikely, and the defenses probably won't have to be changed every few weeks just to adjust to some stupid adventurer figuring out my hidey-hole and trying to loot it while I'm away.
But the downtick, of course, being that I have to track down a powerful and, more unlikely yet, *deceased*, wizard's home, hope their tome's in one peace, hope they learned and cast Genesis, and then taking that knowledge for myself?
Would I have better odds just hunting down liches?



The spell Genesis is cast on the Ethereal Plane, not the Astral. It's only the power Genesis that's on the Astral Plane. Why? I dunno.

Okay, that's a fair point, actually. It would be on the Ethereal Plane. That's actually a P. important difference, but brings up a question. How, eh, visible would a genesis-made pocket dimension be if you made a force-wall on it?

[Jack_Simth]

I can work those. Thanks, though, this gives me a lot to work with.

Do keep in mind:
Even if the Wizard in question lost a fight with another Wizard, and ended up permanently gone... that doesn't mean the wizard didn't leave countermeasures at home to prevent unwanted guests! You'll most likely need to clean the place out.

[Malphegor]

The astral plane is infinite in size..

To be fair thanks to divination magic, infinite isn't that much of an issue technically since you can magically search your way through the infinite index that is that plane for specific search terms. The trouble is you need to know what search terms to put into the Googly Goggles Of Scrying.

[Deophaun]

To be fair thanks to divination magic, infinite isn't that much of an issue technically since you can magically search your way through the infinite index that is that plane for specific search terms. The trouble is you need to know what search terms to put into the Googly Goggles Of Scrying.
Of course, if you're using those kinds of divinations, there is no need to ever set foot on the Astral Plane; you can search from the comfort of your study on whatever plane of existence you prefer.

[Hackulator]

Do keep in mind:
Even if the Wizard in question lost a fight with another Wizard, and ended up permanently gone... that doesn't mean the wizard didn't leave countermeasures at home to prevent unwanted guests! You'll most likely need to clean the place out.

Even better, some crazy as heck Wizard might have created a honeypot demiplane just to catch people looking for abandoned planes cause he thought it was funny.

[BowStreetRunner]

The astral plane is infinite in size. To give you some sense of scale, our universe--with its 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars only in the observable part--isn't. The chance of randomly bumping into a demiplane is practically nonexistent. And things don't get much better if you're actively looking for demiplanes to bump into, because there are ubiquitous clouds and storms and color whirlpools that are going to make seeing (your best bet, because divinations tend to be more limited in range) even a few hundred miles out problematic.

No, if you're going to find a demiplane, it's going to be done by studying a forgotten tome or delving into a forbidden ruin or the like, not traipsing across the astral sea and hoping you get lucky.I'd have to disagree with your logic on this one. You are assuming a very small finite number of demiplanes. However, I don't believe there is any canon information on how many demiplanes actually exist. So while finding a specific demiplane might be virtually impossible just by wandering the astral plane, there is no reason to insist that there can't be lots of demiplanes out there waiting to be discovered. As long as you are content with just any old demiplane, it may be worth a shot.

Now if someone can find anything stating just how common/rare demiplanes actually are, it might be possible to figure the odds of discovering a random demiplane by accident.

[Deophaun]

{Scrubbed}

[BowStreetRunner]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}I see the confusion. You are assuming demiplanes aren't natural.


Demiplanes can exist for any number of reasons. They may be created by arcane or divine spells. They may be generated at the desire of a powerful deity or other force. They may exist naturally, as a fold of existing reality that has been pinched off from the rest of the universe, or as a baby universe growing in power.I am considering that demiplanes exist for many reasons, including naturally, and therefore would be part of the astral landscape. There should be an average of N demiplanes for an area of the astral plane of X size. What that distribution is exactly, I don't have sufficient data to formulate. However, it would be reasonable to believe that clusters would exist in larger concentration where created by spells or generated by deities. Yet natural ones would still be spread out through the rest of the cosmos. If the astral plane is infinite, then the number of demiplanes would also be infinite, although the relationship would remain N demiplanes within an area of X size.

[Deophaun]

I see the confusion. You are assuming demiplanes aren't natural.
Yes, I am assuming that demiplanes created by wizards aren't natural. Do you have an example of any demiplane created by a wizard that is natural?

[BowStreetRunner]

{Scrubbed}

[Chalhubard]

As a question, then, what's the earliest that you think someone could discover one of these abandoned planes and how to get to it?

If you get your Gather Information/Knowledge: the planes up to some good numbers, you could get intel by cruising around any planar metropolis. As for the getting-there part, the 3HD Ur'Epona (Planar Handbook) sits comfortably within the limits of a Lesser Planar Binding, which scroll is priced at 1,125gp.
One could also extrapolate the AE&G's guidelines for acquiring monstrous mounts, and buy one for 1,750gp.

So, there, level 3.

[Talverin]

There's always other opportunities.

An old Demiplane used to contain powerful artifacts... And the Wizard, millenia ago, died, his Demiplane unclaimed and unguarded. After so long of exposure to such powerful artifacts, the weavings have started to come apart, and leak strange magic into the Astral Sea like blood in the water.

Demiplanes will be absolutely as easy or difficult to find as the adventure needs them to be, and I, for one, am rather enjoying the idea of Astral Treasure Hunters looking for lost Demiplanes... and the creatures and strange magicks that have infested them.

[magic9mushroom]

Now, I do imagine that there is a finite number of demiplanes generated by any given world. I assume the distributions of those worlds is similar to our universe, as the DMG says to assume. I also assume the prevalence of intelligent life is also rather constrained as in our own universe, again as per the DMG. The thing is, under those assumptions, while it would be insanely generous by several orders of magnitude to say that there exist 100 demiplanes for each planet, inhabited or not, even if we say that demiplanes are clustered in groups in the astral plane similar to galaxies, there is still so much empty space that a dragon traveling randomly for his entire life on the astral plane is not going to run into one.

The Material Plane is an infinite plane too (and there are an unknown number of Material Planes, although whether they connect to the same Astral is dubious), and there's no particular reason that demiplanes can't be closer together on the Astral Plane than the planets which host the people who created them.

I mean, infinity divided by 100000000000 is still infinity, and the Astral Plane's not known to be 1:1 the way the Ethereal and (parts of) Shadow are.

Not saying they necessarily are closer, but be mindful of your assumptions.

[Hackulator]

A fun idea to be sure.

[Thedez]

If you get your Gather Information/Knowledge: the planes up to some good numbers, you could get intel by cruising around any planar metropolis. As for the getting-there part, the 3HD Ur'Epona (Planar Handbook) sits comfortably within the limits of a Lesser Planar Binding, which scrolls is priced at 1,125gp.
One could also extrapolate the AE&G's guidelines for acquiring monstrous mounts, and buy one for 1,750gp.

So, there, level 3.

Wow...So conceivably, by the time you could afford Planeshift-based Astral Adventures, you could have quite a few destinations plotted out.

[Hackulator]

If you get your Gather Information/Knowledge: the planes up to some good numbers, you could get intel by cruising around any planar metropolis. As for the getting-there part, the 3HD Ur'Epona (Planar Handbook) sits comfortably within the limits of a Lesser Planar Binding, which scrolls is priced at 1,125gp.
One could also extrapolate the AE&G's guidelines for acquiring monstrous mounts, and buy one for 1,750gp.

So, there, level 3.

Trying to do that at third level sounds like a good way to die really fast though. Also I feel like any demiplane you could find with gather information is probably already ransacked or too dangerous to enter.

[Chalhubard]

Wow...So conceivably, by the time you could afford Planeshift-based Astral Adventures, you could have quite a few destinations plotted out.

Indeed, though I'd bet the life-expectancy for low-level planar travelers should be somewhat short.


Trying to do that at third level sounds like a good way to die really fast though. Also I feel like any demiplane you could find with gather information is probably already ransacked or too dangerous to enter.

That is a reasonable assumption, if you are going for D&D's weakspot, otherwise known as logic :smallbiggrin:

Luckily for us, a scroll of Divination costs 725gp. So even if you stack a scroll of Lesser Binding, we still under the WBL for level 3.

[Deophaun]

{Scrubbed}

[BowStreetRunner]

{Scrubbed}

[Deophaun]

{Scrubbed}

[Hackulator]

Indeed, though I'd bet the life-expectancy for low-level planar travelers should be somewhat short.

That is a reasonable assumption, if you are going for D&D's weakspot, otherwise known as logic :smallbiggrin:

Luckily for us, a scroll of Divination costs 725gp. So even if you stack a scroll of Lesser Binding, we still under the WBL for level 3.

So the first part we are in COMPLETE agreement on lol.

The second part....DAMMIT YOU HAVE USED AN ARGUMENT I USE CONSTANTLY AGAINST ME. :smalltongue:

I would say that in any situation, it's all up to the DM and it seems more reasonable to discover such things through divination than asking around. I'm not sure that a single casting of Divination would be enough to suss out a lost demiplane, I was imagining a divination followed up by a Commune to use the yes/no questions to home in on your target, but once again with Divination it becomes up to the DM so your way could certainly work.

[BowStreetRunner]

{Scrubbed}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: C'mon, people. This is completely inappropriate.