Most reliably effective first level characters?

[J-H]

Until I can join a campaign at the FLGS it looks like I'm limited to mostly 1st-level one-shots. What character classes reliably do well at this level? I've done a 1st level monk and it was OK but squishy... our Barbarian in that game missed almost every attack roll until he got to level 2.

Right now I am leaning towards Warlock, Variant Human with Spell Sniper. 1d10 damage all day long, at range with no penalty shooting into melee, plus a spell slot per short rest that can be used for Hex, Dissonant Whispers (much fun), or something else. A first level wizard only has 1 more spell slot, but the wizard slots are per day instead of per short rest, so the warlock can actually cast more.
If the one-shot DM uses critical fumbles, I'd swap out Variant Human for Lightfoot Halfling to dodge those nasty 1s.

[Ganryu]

Until I can join a campaign at the FLGS it looks like I'm limited to mostly 1st-level one-shots. What character classes reliably do well at this level? I've done a 1st level monk and it was OK but squishy... our Barbarian in that game missed almost every attack roll until he got to level 2.

Right now I am leaning towards Warlock, Variant Human with Spell Sniper. 1d10 damage all day long, at range with no penalty shooting into melee, plus a spell slot per short rest that can be used for Hex, Dissonant Whispers (much fun), or something else. A first level wizard only has 1 more spell slot, but the wizard slots are per day instead of per short rest, so the warlock can actually cast more.
If the one-shot DM uses critical fumbles, I'd swap out Variant Human for Lightfoot Halfling to dodge those nasty 1s.


Why don't you have a penalty for shooting into melee? Unless I'm wrong, someone in melee distance should be very bad for you.

[nickl_2000]

I would suggest Cleric personally. You can get the same AC as a fighter, a reliable ranged and melee attack, healing word to keep allies up, and bless for all other times.

[J-H]

Why don't you have a penalty for shooting into melee? Unless I'm wrong, someone in melee distance should be very bad for you.

I'm talking about shooting Eldritch Blast at range at enemies who are in melee with other party members. If I don't have Spell Sniper, then the enemies have a +2 cover bonus to AC if other creatures are in the way. That's why the Spell Sniper feat is often recommended for Warlocks.

[Nhorianscum]

Until I can join a campaign at the FLGS it looks like I'm limited to mostly 1st-level one-shots. What character classes reliably do well at this level? I've done a 1st level monk and it was OK but squishy... our Barbarian in that game missed almost every attack roll until he got to level 2.

Right now I am leaning towards Warlock, Variant Human with Spell Sniper. 1d10 damage all day long, at range with no penalty shooting into melee, plus a spell slot per short rest that can be used for Hex, Dissonant Whispers (much fun), or something else. A first level wizard only has 1 more spell slot, but the wizard slots are per day instead of per short rest, so the warlock can actually cast more.
If the one-shot DM uses critical fumbles, I'd swap out Variant Human for Lightfoot Halfling to dodge those nasty 1s.

Cleric all the way.

[Quoz]

1st level V.human w/ crossbow mastery. Take archer fighting style and you will have 2 high accuracy attacks all day long, close or ranged. Net + hand bow if you want to set up the party against a big bad. And you get a short rest heal that takes a lot of pressure off your healer's very limited spell slots.

[CTurbo]

Archer Fighter or War Cleric

Archer or TWF Fighter will be extremely reliable and effective. You could either feat to improve your strengths(Sharpshooter or Dual Wielder) or feat to bolster your weaknesses(ResWis or Ritual Caster)

Several different Clerics would be great. Tempest, War, Light, or Forge stand out. War could be the most damaging first level character possible. Clerics also get possibly the best cantrip in the game(Guidance) as well as possibly the best first level spell(Bless)

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Sharpshooter War Cleric served me well in the low level one shot I just did. Having a bonus action Sharpshooter shot can do a lot of damage very quickly. Start the battle with Bless and it helps off set the penalty.

If you end up level 2, Guided Strike helps with even more damage. You still have all of the Cleric goodies as well.

[8wGremlin]

Might I suggest Variant Human Arcana Cleric with Chill touch, and booming blade as cleric cantrips.
With magic initiate Druid for Shillelagh, Thornwhip and Goodberry.

Max Wis and put Dex to 14, with medium armour shield and a club that you can make magical 1d8 that uses Wisdom. You're pretty potent.

[hymer]

I'll echo the cleric, and add that heavy Armor Master is ridiculously good at level 1. It can easily double your effective hit points.

[ThePlanarDM]

Warlocks don't really get going until level 2. The 1d10 looks nice but you're not adding your ability modifier, so it's more like a 1d4. Hex brings it back to equilibrium, but it's concentration, so you might lose it, and there goes your only spell.

Goliath's reaction that prevents damage doesn't scale, so very powerful early on and less powerful later. Goliath barbarian is pretty nasty (I know you've already tried barbarian); you can take so much damage and deal out a fair amount yourself.

[Contrast]

At level 1 anyone with access to sleep is amazing so a wizard (3/day) or feylock (1/short rest) are good shouts.

Fighters are pretty tanky at level 1 given their starting equipment, fighting style and self heal.

Any class as variant human with a decent charisma and Inspiring Leader.

[LuccMa]

I would have to go for the V.Human War Cleric with Heavy Armor Mastery. It has 2 attacks, good AC, great damage mitigation and Healing Word / Bless. Ofc you can go for other builds mentioned but i think this would be the most consistant choice.

[OmSwaOperations]

Definitely agree with the Cleric as a reliably effective 1st level character;
- High AC
- Hits well
- Spellcaster
- Healer

There's very little a first level Cleric doesn't have compared to other classes - when I played one the other PCs thought I was a Paladin because I was so good at fighting...

[Tanarii]

Paladins, and Heavy Armor Fighters and Clerics.

[sambojin]

Look into some of the stranger races too, if you feel like going all lvl1-super-wizard-melee?-cleric.

A Firbolg Arcana Cleric has a pretty large list of cantrips and spells to play with, every day, for any situation. Not the most combat'y character, but a very nice caster type at low levels (short rest *good* Disguise Self, 1 round of invis popping for extra defense per short rest, Detect Magic per short rest for fast-casting it but you can also always ritual-cast it, 1/2 of Speak with Animals "whenever", Magic Missile always prepared for "must hit that enemy" situations, alongside your cleric and wizard cantrips, makes you pretty versatile in most circumstances you're ever likely to come across at lvl1). There's almost always something you can do to help in any situation, and you'll just laugh at other 2-3/day spell classes with the amount of "useful" casting you can pull off each day in comparison to them. You'll be effectively using 5-10 lvl1 spells a day, which is insane at first level.

A serious amount of real magic, and a serious amount of cantrips for when you're out of slots. And not a bad character if you do go past lvl1 anyway. If you're not playing AL rules (ie, can pick more than PHB+1 content), feel free to grab a SCAG melee cantrip or two if you want as well, just so you can keep up (or excel) in combat if you go down the high Str path too. Minor Illusion has a host of uses as well, so you may as well grab it.

But, you can look however you want (Firbolgs are almost always disguised, and are always the 6'2" minimum height, so they can look like any humanoid 3'2"-7'2" tall, ie: everything). You can fight how you want (melee/ranged/support/whatever), and you can solve encounters and puzzles in plenty of different ways too. Just running guidance/bless/an attack cantrip/super-disguise self/leaf+beast speech/magic missile and minor illusion makes you a superlative toolkit in any party, with a bit of AC and HP to boot. Stat it how you want (can use Str as a combat stat, or dump it and have a 270lb carry capacity anyway :) ). Firbolgs make WAY better clerics than people realize, whether you're going pure Wis or for a combat'y hybrid. Arcana cleric just gives you all the stuff you could ever want (though War or Nature are also very nice). I can't fathom why they're rated as "average" in most cleric guides. Free short-rest magic is amazing, and they give the exact stats you need for a cleric build anyway.


15+1Str/14Dex/12Con/8Int/14+2Wis/8Cha is doable on a 27pt buy. That's +3attack/damage with a mace (got Bless too), 18AC with scale mail+shield and +2 initiative (Guidance if needed), 4+2 spells prepared at DC13 (one ritual and one auto-hit damage spell always prepared, +3 Firbolg short rest spells, one of which is "pseudo-Shield", and DC doesn't usually matter for clerics at lvl1, but you're maxxed), 5 cantrips (3 cleric, 2 wizard, SCAG melee maybe?), d8+1HP (so, 9HP at lvl1), and you can speak to that partridge in the pear tree if you want (8Cha with advantage still gives you "about" +5 on that speaky before Guidance). Oh, and 480lb carry capacity, just for giggles.

It's way less DPR than a v.human PAM or XBE build. But you do so very much more, while still being a pretty good tank. Can mini-smite with M.Missile or lockdown with Booming Blade, and can still make any party member better at what they do, while being a good asset in any battle or situation yourself.

[LorinSilver]

1st level V.human w/ crossbow mastery. Take archer fighting style and you will have 2 high accuracy attacks all day long, close or ranged. Net + hand bow if you want to set up the party against a big bad. And you get a short rest heal that takes a lot of pressure off your healer's very limited spell slots.
How does this work? I get having two crossbows readied and firing both of them, but how are you going to reload them for the next round with your hands full of crossbow?

[nickl_2000]

How does this work? I get having two crossbows readied and firing both of them, but how are you going to reload them for the next round with your hands full of crossbow?

You don't need to have 2 hand crossbows to use a bonus action to shoot a hand crossbow. You can just use a single one and shoot twice with it in a round per the intent of the rule.

[Spieldog20]

I have to ask what your barbarian was doing wrong to miss almost every roll? What he trying Great Weapon Master hits? Because that is suboptimal at level 1. Or was he built weirdly? I have seen just about every class made "uniquely" by fellow players in one shots.

In my opinion Barbarian is solid at level 1.

It is more about what is NOT good at level 1. A sorc and a warlock are weak at level 1. In a one shot without much long rests a wiz is also weak.

[MoiMagnus]

How does this work? I get having two crossbows readied and firing both of them, but how are you going to reload them for the next round with your hands full of crossbow?

Crossbow expert says "You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.", which mean it is technically legal.

To explain it in RP, one can suggest (from the more realistic to the less realistic):
1) The feat include the skill of modifying your crossbows so that it is easier to reload (possibly with some magic)
2) You are very good at reloading a crossbow, so you can do so even if your other hand isn't free.
3) Your crossbows don't need to be reloaded (similarly to film guns who have infinite ammunition)
4) You are juggling with your crossbows.
5) You reload them with your teeth.

But the real answer is you attack twice with the same crossbow, and your other hand is free for reloading

[J-H]

I have to ask what your barbarian was doing wrong to miss almost every roll? What he trying Great Weapon Master hits? Because that is suboptimal at level 1. Or was he built weirdly? I have seen just about every class made "uniquely" by fellow players in one shots.

In my opinion Barbarian is solid at level 1.

It is more about what is NOT good at level 1. A sorc and a warlock are weak at level 1. In a one shot without much long rests a wiz is also weak.

It was a pregenerated character. He was just rolling poorly every time.

[rlc]

An elf rogue is also pretty good at level 1. You get longbow proficiency for your sneak attacks, and expertise on a couple skills you might use.

[Willie the Duck]

Fighters are pretty tanky at level 1 given their starting equipment, fighting style and self heal.

Starting equipment is a good point, and OP would be advised to inquire as to whether they can roll starting gold and buy or if they need to start with equipment packages. Ranged/Dex builds are often quite good... once you can get either longbow or hand crossbow, plus studded leather (or medium armor, particularly if you are starting with PB or array and thus won't have a Dex over 17). However, if you are sitting with a shortbow and leather armor+3 from dex=AC 14, the Str-based melee character with chainmail and possibly a shield has a potential leg up on you (and the power dynamic might well switch only after the one-shot concludes).


Crossbow expert says "You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.", which mean it is technically legal.
This is not correct.

But the real answer is you attack twice with the same crossbow, and your other hand is free for reloading
But this is.
While Crossbow expert eliminates the loading property, it does not eliminate the ammunition property, which has the rider 'you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon' Thus you cannot reload your crossbows if you are holding one in each hand, even with the XBE feat. However, you are correct that the real way to do this is to use one crossbow, and fire it for both your normal action attack and your bonus action attack.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Paladins, and Heavy Armor Fighters and Clerics.

Paladins? I kinda feel like they don't really get going until at least level 2. All they really get at 1 is 5 HP of Lay on Hands (other than armor & weapon proficiency).

[nickl_2000]

Paladins? I kinda feel like they don't really get going until at least level 2. All they really get at 1 is 5 HP of Lay on Hands (other than armor & weapon proficiency).

I agree with you there. If the character will only ever be level 1 you may as well be a fighter, you will get more mechanically to do with the character. In fact, I wouldn't really play any half-caster for a level 1 one shot.

[CTurbo]

Paladin's weakest level is probably their first. They don't take off until level 2 like the Ranger and Warlock.

Clerics are much more front loaded.

[Tanarii]

Paladins? I kinda feel like they don't really get going until at least level 2. All they really get at 1 is 5 HP of Lay on Hands (other than armor & weapon proficiency).Bells and whistles don't count for near as much as a starting package that includes Chain and Shield, Martial weapons, and the ability to dump Dex. AC 18 is amazing at level 1.

[rlc]

Bells and whistles don't count for near as much as a starting package that includes Chain and Shield, Martial weapons, and the ability to dump Dex. AC 18 is amazing at level 1.

Right, but you also get that with fighters and war clerics. Paladins get flexible healing, but not very much of it.

[sambojin]

Whereas Firbolg Arcana clerics get all the bells and whistles you could ever want, and only sacrifice a tiny bit of AC and static to-hit for it. 16-17AC with the occasional Bless or 3d4+3 auto-hit Magic Missile isn't bad. Especially with the odd round of invis-disadvantage-inducing-pop once you've acted to mitigate some incoming damage (lasts until your next turn, so is essentially a pre-emptive Shield spell of sorts, of about +3-5AC worth, 2-3 times a day). Though you'll never have the HP of a decent fighter for when you do get hit (you need your Dex at least a little, they can just chuck it into Con).

Either way, better than a lvl1 Pally. Be it looking at them as a healer, a combat/adventure tool-kit, or a Magic Missile "mini-smiter" with tanking. Everything a Pally could want, plus some social/adventure shenanigans, all wrapped up in a neat little lvl1 package with so many ribbons it's ridiculous. Firbolg Clerics are good.

[Tanarii]

Paladins, and Heavy Armor Fighters and Clerics.


Paladins? I kinda feel like they don't really get going until at least level 2. All they really get at 1 is 5 HP of Lay on Hands (other than armor & weapon proficiency).


Bells and whistles don't count for near as much as a starting package that includes Chain and Shield, Martial weapons, and the ability to dump Dex. AC 18 is amazing at level 1.


Right, but you also get that with fighters and war clerics. Paladins get flexible healing, but not very much of it.
Fighters and Clerics you say?

[Willie the Duck]

Fighters and Clerics you say?

Yes, we got that you brought them up as well, but you also brought up paladins. They want to know what the selling point for a 1st level paladin is, over fighters and (martially armed) clerics. It is pertinent to the question of 'Most reliably effective first level characters.'

[Kane0]

Great picks:
Cleric: Good equipment, casting (with rituals) and domain
Fighter: Equipment and health, fighting style and second wind
Wizard: Casting (with rituals), arcane recovery

Potentially good picks:
Barbarian: The most health plus rage
Bard: Inspiration and casting (with rituals)
Rogue: Sneak Attack, Expertise
Warlock: Casting, patron

Poor picks:
Druid: casting (with rituals)
Monk: Martial Arts
Paladin: Lay on hands
Ranger: favored enemy, natural explorer
Sorcerer: Casting, bloodline

[rlc]

Fighters and Clerics you say?

Yup. Almost any class is better than a paladin at level 1, which is why it doesn't make much sense to mention it with the other classes.

[diplomancer]

Id like to add the tempest cleric, especially paired with Heavy Armor Master; its fun to kill creatures with your reaction after they hit you for 1 (or even 0!) hit points of damage. Skip the shield and get a maul, you WANT people to hit you.

[strangebloke]

Cleric with HAM, as everyone has said. Loads of spells, great armor, and HP for days. Best domain is tempest.

Inspiring leader rogue. You'll have good AC, good skills, and your whole party will have like 30% more HP after every combat

Crossbow expert fighter. Two attacks, your to-hit is great. You can use nets effectively. Rogue works fine with this as well.

Tortle wizard who dumped int. AC 17 and sleep and magic missile dont care what your int is. Wield a great club.

In general, you want to use the twf rules, or have a shield. There's basically no reason to wield a heavy/two-handed weapon at these levels.

Also, remember items other than weapons. Nets, caltrops, ball bearings, etc. are very good at these levels.

[diplomancer]

Another good one would be a PAM fighter with spear and shield and dueling fighting style; having two attacks with +5 damage gives you reasonable odds of killing two goblins in one round.

[Tanarii]

Yes, we got that you brought them up as well, but you also brought up paladins. They want to know what the selling point for a 1st level paladin is, over fighters and (martially armed) clerics. It is pertinent to the question of 'Most reliably effective first level characters.'
No, thats not the relevent comparison.

The relevent comparison is the selling point over all the other classes except fighters and clerics. Which, if you follow the chain of the discussion, is what was being provided.

[sambojin]

Another good one would be a PAM fighter with spear and shield and dueling fighting style; having two attacks with +5 damage gives you reasonable odds of killing two goblins in one round.

Not too far different from the V.Human Druid PAM Shillelagh user in some ways. Only +3 damage for the Druid, but it is magical. And you get a smattering of magic too.

So, umm, not as good. But if you ever get to level 2 (outside the scope of this thread admittedly), Moon is always a ridiculously good option. Easily as good as a Fighter's Action Surge IMO.

[Nhorianscum]

Feylock with Alert is worth a plug as some very serious 6/day battlefield control at cl1.

[diplomancer]

Not too far different from the V.Human Druid PAM Shillelagh user in some ways. Only +3 damage for the Druid, but it is magical. And you get a smattering of magic too.

So, umm, not as good. But if you ever get to level 2 (outside the scope of this thread admittedly), Moon is always a ridiculously good option. Easily as good as a Fighter's Action Surge IMO.

Fighter's Ac is considerably better though, that plus the damage makes it at least as good I think.

Also, magical damage at level 1 is only relevant if you are facing a raging barbarian.

[Nhorianscum]

Fighter's Ac is considerably better though, that plus the damage makes it at least as good I think.

Also, magical damage at level 1 is only relevant if you are facing a raging barbarian.

I feel like you're overestimating AC at CL1 given that many of the common cr1/8 Monsters can effectively generate advantage at-will.

[sambojin]

Blah, blah, blah, Firbolg Arcana Clerics are great at lvl1....

15+1Str/14Dex/12Con/8Int/14+2Wis/8Cha is doable on a 27pt buy. That's +3attack/damage with a mace (got Bless too), 18AC with scale+shield and +2 initiative, 4 spells prepared at DC13 (+3 firbolg short rest spells, one of which is "pseudo-Shield"), 5 cantrips (3 cleric, 2 wizard, SCAG melee maybe?), d8+1HP (so, 9HP at lvl1), and you can speak to that partridge in the pear tree if you want (8Cha with advantage still gives you "about" +5 on that speaky before Guidance). Oh, and 480lb carry, just for giggles.

It's way less DPR than a v.human PAM or XBE build. But you do so very much more, while still being a pretty good tank. Can mini-smite with MM or lockdown with Booming Blade, and can still make any party member better at what they do, while being an asset yourself.

Also gives the bonus action invis "pseudo-Shield" another use from post above, cancelling advantage against mooks and beasts. While retaining a healthy 18AC much of the time as well (perception is a nice skill for not being surprised).

[hymer]

many of the common cr1/8 Monsters can effectively generate advantage at-will.
What do you mean? Could you provide some examples?

[Willie the Duck]

No, thats not the relevent comparison.

The relevent comparison is the selling point over all the other classes except fighters and clerics. Which, if you follow the chain of the discussion, is what was being provided.

Wait, are you trying to tell them what their question to you is?

[strangebloke]

What do you mean? Could you provide some examples?
Kobolds have pack tactics, goblins have bonus action hide.

But their to hit bonuses are pretty pathetic, honestly, so I still think AC is very important.

Even kobolds won't have advantage all the time.

[hymer]

@ strangebloke: Kobolds for sure. So that's one. But goblins start from CR 1/4.

[Nhorianscum]

Kobolds have pack tactics, goblins have bonus action hide.

But their to hit bonuses are pretty pathetic, honestly, so I still think AC is very important.

Even kobolds won't have advantage all the time.

+4 at advantage is pretty stellar vs first level PC's with a maximum AC of 18 and a more common 12-17.

[Tanarii]

+4 at advantage is pretty stellar vs first level PC's with a maximum AC of 18 and a more common 12-17.
Brings them from 35% against the AC 18 tank to 58%.

Or from 50-60% vs the (typically) AC 13-15 other non-squishes have to 75-84%

Just to put some numbers to it.

[Nhorianscum]

Brings them from 35% against the AC 18 tank to 58%.

Or from 50-60% vs the (typically) AC 13-15 other non-squishes have to 75-84%

Just to put some numbers to it.

Expanding on this and assuming hard-deadly difficulty....

At 4-8 enemies per encounter at an average damage of 4.5-5.5 this is also known as "just dead" for any first level PC without HAM. HAM users are still dealing with a 7ish% crit rate spread among 4-8 enemies in a 3 round combat which can easily rip off most of their hp at a non- negligible chance of double crit.

HAM is pretty much required to "tank" at first level and any serious effort to damage sponge even with HAM at first level will result in our PC becoming shredded meat before the day is up

[strangebloke]

Expanding on this and assuming hard-deadly difficulty....

At 4-8 enemies per encounter at an average damage of 4.5-5.5 this is also known as "just dead" for any first level PC without HAM. HAM users are still dealing with a 7ish% crit rate spread among 4-8 enemies in a 3 round combat which can easily rip off most of their hp at a non- negligible chance of double crit.

HAM is pretty much required to "tank" at first level and any serious effort to damage sponge even with HAM at first level will result in our PC becoming shredded meat before the day is up

Right, every hit is very very high impact.

But not all cr 1/8 monsters can get advantage
Not all who can, will be able to in every circumstance (goblins with nowhere to hide, first kobold to attack in a round)
avoiding even one hit is going to hugely impact the course of the whole encounter.
dodging is a really strong action use until 5th level.

So the tank wades into the pack of bullywugs and dodges. His ac is 17 and the wugs have disadvantage, which with his 17 AC means they have a 12.5% chance to hit him. They can attack the rest of the party, also at disadvantage because they're adjacent to an enemy. They can run away and have one of them eat an OA, which basically makes the earlier dodge action 'free.' As they're cowardly, the wugs might just stay close, none of them willing to be the first one to run away and take the hit. If they attack the fighter, the expected damage of all three wugs together is like 1.7.

AC is perfectly fine at low levels.

[Nhorianscum]

Right, every hit is very very high impact.

But not all cr 1/8 monsters can get advantage
Not all who can, will be able to in every circumstance (goblins with nowhere to hide, first kobold to attack in a round)
avoiding even one hit is going to hugely impact the course of the whole encounter.
dodging is a really strong action use until 5th level.

So the tank wades into the pack of bullywugs and dodges. His ac is 17 and the wugs have disadvantage, which with his 17 AC means they have a 12.5% chance to hit him. They can attack the rest of the party, also at disadvantage because they're adjacent to an enemy. They can run away and have one of them eat an OA, which basically makes the earlier dodge action 'free.' As they're cowardly, the wugs might just stay close, none of them willing to be the first one to run away and take the hit. If they attack the fighter, the expected damage of all three wugs together is like 1.7.

AC is perfectly fine at low levels.

Going off "The Monsters Know" and the MM fluff....

Why is there a pack of bullywugs? Those little suckers are poisoned ambush treediver grapplers. Entering mele with those suckers is a while different kind of hell and they're found in Dterrain which they get to jump around in so the struggle of a bullywug encounter is desperately atempting to stay out of mele?

Edit: AC is very good. It's just not functional as a sole means of survival early

Edit again: Got bullies and grungs mixed up. Bullywugs just have standing leap, advantage on stealth, and friggin multiattack. Also cr1/4. Holy balls OW.

[Meichrob7]

If you're not gonna be outside much then Kobolds with their pack tactics and two weapon fighting will let you make 4 attack rolls each round so you'd probably be hitting at least once.

[strangebloke]

Going off "The Monsters Know" and the MM fluff....

Why is there a pack of bullywugs? Those little suckers are poisoned ambush treediver grapplers. Entering mele with those suckers is a while different kind of hell and they're found in Dterrain which they get to jump around in so the struggle of a bullywug encounter is desperately atempting to stay out of mele?

Edit: AC is very good. It's just not functional as a sole means of survival early

Edit again: Got bullies and grungs mixed up. Bullywugs just have standing leap, advantage on stealth, and friggin multiattack. Also cr1/4. Holy balls OW.

Monsters cannot always be expected to be fighting in favorable terrain. Yes, if they're trying to ambush the party, they'll try to get favorable terrain, but the party will be trying to do the same thing as well. There might be a circumstance when the party ambushes the monsters for a change.

Anyway, the assertion that many low-level monsters have easy ways of getting advantage is not true. Its pretty much just kobolds. Guards, Cultists, Manes, etc. don't have great ways of getting advantage. At CR 1/4 the only ones I'm aware of are wolves and goblins.

Anyway, we're not really in disagreement. AC is really good against some types of enemies. Against hobgoblins, for example, its compulsory. But it isn't sufficient on its own to make you a tough dude. The only reason that I'm being a little hard on this point is that AC is best at low level, whereas the other poster was saying that its not that good 'because advantage.'

[Ebon]

Definitely, at level 1, every hit counts. Cure Wounds is much more powerful at level 1, when it's restoring 50%+ of a characters hit points. Even the buff classes like fighter have intrinsic healing with second wind. But the more Hit Points you have in the tank, the more likely you and your party are to survive.

I'd like to suggest Life Cleric with Magic Initiate Druid with Goodberry, Shillelagh (for magical melee damage), and Thorn Whip.

According to the SA, the Life Cleric bonus works on each berry, and nets you 40 hit points of healing. The bonus lets Cure wounds heal around another 20 hit points with your two spell slots. You'd have to get hit 20 times (and survive) to get the same amount out of Heavy Armor Master.

5 Cantrips ain't so bad either.

[Nhorianscum]

Monsters cannot always be expected to be fighting in favorable terrain. Yes, if they're trying to ambush the party, they'll try to get favorable terrain, but the party will be trying to do the same thing as well. There might be a circumstance when the party ambushes the monsters for a change.

Anyway, the assertion that many low-level monsters have easy ways of getting advantage is not true. Its pretty much just kobolds. Guards, Cultists, Manes, etc. don't have great ways of getting advantage. At CR 1/4 the only ones I'm aware of are wolves and goblins.

Anyway, we're not really in disagreement. AC is really good against some types of enemies. Against hobgoblins, for example, its compulsory. But it isn't sufficient on its own to make you a tough dude. The only reason that I'm being a little hard on this point is that AC is best at low level, whereas the other poster was saying that its not that good 'because advantage.'

I'll call this a difference in experiance due to different ways of running combat.

(I personally use flanking, roll individual innitiative, assume monsters have world knowledge equivilant to their mental stats, have monsters moving almost constantly, make skill and social checks constantly in both sides, and have the enemies retreat/surrender at preset conditions in different weird ways. IE fast moving chaos)

I guess my point was that AC is important, but without a huge buffer like HAM optimal play is much more important to tier 1 survival and the builds with the most options for this are the ones I prefer to recommend.

[MoiMagnus]

I'll call this a difference in experiance due to different ways of running combat.

(I personally use flanking, roll individual innitiative, assume monsters have world knowledge equivilant to their mental stats, have monsters moving almost constantly, make skill and social checks constantly in both sides, and have the enemies retreat/surrender at preset conditions in different weird ways. IE fast moving chaos)

I guess my point was that AC is important, but without a huge buffer like HAM optimal play is much more important to tier 1 survival and the builds with the most options for this are the ones I prefer to recommend.

Flanking rules, combined with monster played intelligently, do have a LOT of effect on this.
AC is much more powerful when enemies don't get advantages for outnumbering you.
(Which also significantly increase you lifespan if you're not the kind of player to think about "how the enemies might move during their next turn".)

[Nhorianscum]

Flanking rules, combined with monster played intelligently, do have a LOT of effect on this.
AC is much more powerful when enemies don't get advantages for outnumbering you.
(Which also significantly increase you lifespan if you're not the kind of player to think about "how the enemies might move during their next turn".)

I would not call it "inteligent" use of mobs, more "all hell breaks lose" really.

[strangebloke]

I'll call this a difference in experiance due to different ways of running combat.

(I personally use flanking, roll individual innitiative, assume monsters have world knowledge equivilant to their mental stats, have monsters moving almost constantly, make skill and social checks constantly in both sides, and have the enemies retreat/surrender at preset conditions in different weird ways. IE fast moving chaos)

I guess my point was that AC is important, but without a huge buffer like HAM optimal play is much more important to tier 1 survival and the builds with the most options for this are the ones I prefer to recommend.

Pff, you use flanking rules? No wonder! AC is way less important if enemies can almost always get advantage when in large numbers.

"Optimal Play" (which I'll instead refer to as 'careful play') is always more important to survival no matter your level. If your DM is actually trying to kill you, anyway. 100% of the PCs I've killed have earned their deaths by getting way separated from the party or messing around with dangerous stuff that they clearly shouldn't have messed with.

Options are nice, but there is a tendency on this forum to overvalue versatility. Sure, its great that you can pick locks or whatever, but if there's already a guy in the party who can do that, the utility of you having that ability is a lot less.

So in a party with a cleric, rogue, and wizard, a fighter (despite being not very versatile) will be a much better pick than a second cleric or wizard.

[XmonkTad]

I'll throw in another vote for cleric, but I'll note the death domain + toll the dead = very good damage at level 1. I can't think of anything else that really has a shot at 2d12 per round.

[Nhorianscum]

Pff, you use flanking rules? No wonder! AC is way less important if enemies can almost always get advantage when in large numbers.

"Optimal Play" (which I'll instead refer to as 'careful play') is always more important to survival no matter your level. If your DM is actually trying to kill you, anyway. 100% of the PCs I've killed have earned their deaths by getting way separated from the party or messing around with dangerous stuff that they clearly shouldn't have messed with.

Options are nice, but there is a tendency on this forum to overvalue versatility. Sure, its great that you can pick locks or whatever, but if there's already a guy in the party who can do that, the utility of you having that ability is a lot less.

So in a party with a cleric, rogue, and wizard, a fighter (despite being not very versatile) will be a much better pick than a second cleric or wizard.

Can you elaborate on what the level 1 fighter brings over the mentioned characters?