Can Archdevils retire?

[Temperjoke]

So, a little backstory for my thought process. One of my favorite games was Shining Force 2, which features an NPC who was one of the devil army generals is retired and aids the party. Reminiscing about the game got me thinking about the ability of Archdevils, not necessarily Lords of various one of the particular layers, but a high ranking individual under them, to retire from their position and move somewhere neutral. Is it even possible?

[LuccMa]

Don't know if they can in official lore, but they should. An old, retired, grizzly looking devil living in a small cottage in the woods, having seen enough and being too old for that ****. That would be a great NPC.

But an Archdevil (or higher devil) shouldn't just be able to say "That's it guys, i quit. Have fun!" and walk away. His successor would see him as a danger to his newly gained position and would hunt him down. If i would add such an NPC to my campaign they would have had to get leverage on one or more powerful devils - he would have forced them to let him retire.

I have to add, though, that he would have to be special. In my mind a "normal" devil is happy doing evil and wicked things for all eternity - its in their nature. There would have to be a good reason for a devil to not want that anymore - it's like a Merfolk hating water. Sure, its possible, but you better think of a reason.

LuccMa

[Unoriginal]

Depends what you mean by "retirement".

An Archdevil, with their Archduke's authorization, could leave their active service to concentrate on personal projects or the like. Same way a noble at a court could ask to leave to take care of their lands. With the understanding they'll come back when the boss ask.

But given one of the definitive traits of devils is ambition, that's likely quite rare a devil would do so rather than use the ressources of their position to do their project.

There's also the fact that if a devil stops being a lawful evil person, they stop being a devil.


Now if being kicked out of the job works for you: Moloch, former Archduke, had to escape the Nine Hells after a failed coup, and nowadays he mostly hangs out in Sigil or other places, trying to regain power. He's not a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but helping PCs is perfectly within what he'd consider acceptable if he got something worthwhile in return.

Other devils could be in the same predicament or a similar one.

[Rukelnikov]

An example from Planescape Torment, I removed names to avoid spoilers:

"Once, he was an advocate in Baator. After being tricked, he signed a contract that has since forced him to do good deeds and help others. It will only end with tricksters' death.

As punishment for this, his fellow baatezu destroyed his wings, broke off his horns, and banished him. He has hidden away in the Outlands, since an enchantment there helps prevent him from being found by any who seek him."

He's not REALLY retired, but for many intents and purposes he is.

[OldTrees1]

Belial archduke of the 4th was worried about his daughter Fierna's ambitions. At one point he granted her "co-rulership" but actually used her as a puppet. Eventually that shifted to actual co-rulership. Then Belial's plans of obtaining of the 6th was squashed when Glasya (daughter of Asmodeus) was granted rulership of the 6th. Fierna became friends with Glasya and thus gained a powerful political ally.

So it looks like Belial is slowly retiring. Although only time will tell whether Belial will survive the event.

[Aett_Thorn]

I mean, if you love torturing people for all eternity, then you never really work a day in your life!

[hymer]

Is it even possible?
It is if you want it to be. I like it!

Viewed with a more critical lens, such a retirement would be difficult. Once you are that high up in the hierarchy, letting it go can be very tricky. You need your place in the hierarchy, with underlings to command, and allies who find you useful. And the more underlings you command, the more allies will find you useful, leading you to be able to command more underlings, etc.
You need to be part of the network to protect yourself both from your underlings and allies, and from everyone else around. Now, technically, being retired should render you unimportant, and so you should be left alone. But it only takes one old enemy with a grievance, one young ambitious fiend with a thirst for glory, or one hierarch suspicious of whether you might return. So you have to protect yourself. And doing that makes you relevant, because you can use that power for other things than protecting yourself. And everyone will have to take your potential involvement into account for their schemes.

In other words, you pretty much have to disappear and stay disappeared to get out. But you can handwave any number of things, of course. E.g. if you die, a lot of people will be hit by your contingency plans for vengeance, and so they take it upon themselves to see that you are not targeted.

[Unoriginal]

Also, don't forget that devils can be demoted to weaker ranks.

Former General Akafoort'Isayven would probably be demoted to, like Malebranch if they ask to retire. Since they obviously don't want to help the Hells with their might, they don't need it.


Belial archduke of the 4th was worried about his daughter Fierna's ambitions. At one point he granted her "co-rulership" but actually used her as a puppet. Eventually that shifted to actual co-rulership. Then Belial's plans of obtaining of the 6th was squashed when Glasya (daughter of Asmodeus) was granted rulership of the 6th. Fierna became friends with Glasya and thus gained a powerful political ally.

So it looks like Belial is slowly retiring. Although only time will tell whether Belial will survive the event.

This is not 5e lore. In 5e Belial is definitively not retiring.

He and Fierna (whose actual relationship is unknown, with some scholars speculating they are father/daughter or mother/son) regularly try to take over the layer from the other, but they always end up in a stalemate/alliance in the end.

[Toofey]

This is entirely up to the DM and the narrative. There's a great arc about this in the Gaiman Sandman comic.

[Willie the Duck]

There's also the fact that if a devil stops being a lawful evil person, they stop being a devil.


Also, don't forget that devils can be demoted to weaker ranks.

These are aspects of the D&D official, um, 'how it works' that make it hard to match up to other specific IPs. D&D kind of wants devils and demons to be delegated 'yes they really are the bad guys' types that you don't have to much checking under the hood to make sure you should be opposing them. The notion that someone might want 'a devil, but not one of the bad guys' kind of runs against that notion.

That said, the official D&D line is just made up whatever designed to hold the game-universe together, and should not be treated as (pardon the turn of phrase) sacrosanct. Go with what works for your game. To me, the idea of a devil who takes up a more neutral position isn't too disruptive (and means that the other devils who do otherwise actually have the agency to do otherwise, and thus really are evil as opposed to automata), although the idea of an eternal entity getting tired of stuff is problematic (you have all of eternity to do stuff, yet you get bored? Wow, immortality really is a curse!).

[Unoriginal]

The notion that someone might want 'a devil, but not one of the bad guys' kind of runs against that notion.

You can have bad persons who aren't antagonistic to the PCs, though.



That said, the official D&D line is just made up whatever designed to hold the game-universe together, and should not be treated as (pardon the turn of phrase) sacrosanct. Go with what works for your game.

Sure. OP probably wanted a 5e-default-canon-compliant answer, though.



To me, the idea of a devil who takes up a more neutral position isn't too disruptive (and means that the other devils who do otherwise actually have the agency to do otherwise, and thus really are evil as opposed to automata)

Devils aren't automata. They do evil willingly, and have the capacity to not do it. That they have little to no incentives to not do evil and that they would transform if they changed doesn't change that.


although the idea of an eternal entity getting tired of stuff is problematic (you have all of eternity to do stuff, yet you get bored? Wow, immortality really is a curse!).

Yeah, entities that are born eternal would avoid that kind of things. Though you could get tired of some things and find other interests, like everyone else.

[Willie the Duck]

You can have bad persons who aren't antagonistic to the PCs, though.

Yes you can. Can you elaborate on your point? I'm not sure why you added the "though." Are you contesting something?


Sure. OP probably wanted a 5e-default-canon-compliant answer, though.
I'm not 100% clear on what the boundaries the OP wants for their question. To me it looks like they are open to suggestions about what to do or how to go about it. I invite them to clarify.


Devils aren't automata. They do evil willingly, and have the capacity to not do it. That they have little to no incentives to not do evil and that they would transform if they changed doesn't change that.
The ability to choose not to do evil is what shows that they have autonomy. That's the point.


Yeah, entities that are born eternal would avoid that kind of things. Though you could get tired of some things and find other interests, like everyone else.
Absolutely. My point was that, with an eternity at your disposal, you would eventually run out of things to get tired of, highlighting how much of a nightmare scenario that would really be.

[Unoriginal]

Yes you can. Can you elaborate on your point? I'm not sure why you added the "though." Are you contesting something?

I meant you can have an evil character in a neutral or allied role, so the devil's being evil or not doesn't really matter for OP's scenario.



The ability to choose not to do evil is what shows that they have autonomy. That's the point.

Indeed.



Absolutely. My point was that, with an eternity at your disposal, you would eventually run out of things to get tired of, highlighting how much of a nightmare scenario that would really be.

I've never been a fan of this trope, because it ignores all the way people can stay entertained.

I mean, without touching the mortal-turned-immortal question, the D&D outsiders have whole near-infinite planes to explore and get pleasure from. And the planar scheming is enough to keep them stimulated for eons.

Plus they're not really eternal. One day the universe will end and the planes extinguish, just after the Illithids fleed the scene to go to the past.

[Millstone85]

the idea of an eternal entity getting tired of stuff is problematic (you have all of eternity to do stuff, yet you get bored? Wow, immortality really is a curse!).
My point was that, with an eternity at your disposal, you would eventually run out of things to get tired of, highlighting how much of a nightmare scenario that would really be.Would you rather commit suicide after getting bored of it all, or die before you could enjoy much of it in the first place?

This is a very existential question. I have seen threads go in flames over it.

[Willie the Duck]

Would you rather commit suicide after getting bored of it all, or die before you could enjoy much of it in the first place?

This is a very existential question. I have seen threads go in flames over it.

Then maybe it is a tangent unsuited for the situation. I think I will rather blatantly deflect it into D&D. In D&D, the things that start out with all the time in the world on their hands seem to be semi-monofocused entities. As Aett_Thorn, put it, if you love torturing people for all eternity, then you never really work a day in your life, and that seems to be how most devils/demons/celestials (not the torture part, just being naturally inclined to love what they do) seem to operate. The merely 'long-lived' races like elves just seem to operate under a 'this is what normal looks like' model -- just like your dog isn't too worried about 'merely' living 10-15 years, the elves just treat their lifespans as 'the norm.' Personally I feel that the people who "win" in the D&D universe are half-elves living amongst humans -- their sense of what normal is is the human standard 50-100 years, and they get twice that! Mind you, they still have to make good use of it, but they have the opportunity to experience so much more than what they consider normal. And really, in a universe with so much good, bad, and awe-inspiring, the question of 'how much is enough for one person?' the only answer I can imagine being truly satisfying is 'more than I expected.'


I've never been a fan of this trope, because it ignores all the way people can stay entertained.

When throwing an infinite amount of time at the situation, the likelihood that the individual will end up in situations where they are trapped somewhere with little to no opportunities to entertain themselves approaches certainty. The old 'what happens if Wolverine gets trapped in a well, and can't kill himself?' scenario.


I mean, without touching the mortal-turned-immortal question, the D&D outsiders have whole near-infinite planes to explore and get pleasure from. And the planar scheming is enough to keep them stimulated for eons.

Eons is not long, but this is a good point. My analysis is premised on 'one universe, infinite time.' Once you make it 'infinite universes, infinite time,' we need to grab Georg Cantor and start doing some transfinite induction and discuss power sets of infinite size and the situation starts becoming entirely too muddied.


Plus they're not really eternal. One day the universe will end and the planes extinguish, just after the Illithids fleed the scene to go to the past.

This is a good point. Most D&D cosmologies are not clearly in excess of ~10,000 years (and with an unclear trajectory, other than things known from time travel). There's no guarantee that immortal is at all a true statement. My thought experiment were based upon a more genuine infinity.

[Temperjoke]

The Moloch reference got me thinking as well. Outside the Hells, Moloch has power (maybe not what he was originally, but he is powerful), but if/when he enters the Hells he is demoted to an imp, so according to Mordenkainen: "Thus he lives a split existence, sometimes scheming in Malbolge or other layers of the Hells and at other times wandering the planes searching for magical might or secrets..." which implies that he is not permanently an imp.

Maybe a condition for "retirement" is a similar demotion while in the Hells, but outside of it (away from the main area of influence for Devils) a devil could be like normal. I mean, it's not really just personal power that makes a Devil powerful in the Hells, it's political power and knowledge of the Laws and it's loopholes.

Maybe there's something in the Laws that would allow retirement, it's just that rarely any Devils are actually interested in it, or survive long enough to take advantage of it?

[Zanthy1]

I feel that if a Devil was going to "retire' there would have to be a contract signed with Asmodeous formally abdicating the role, and stepping away from the position even in the future.

However, another thought I had is in regards to the eternal evil sort of thing. What if an archdevil decided that being evil towards the material plane is one thing, but true evil would be to be evil towards the other devils. And thus this devil does the most evil thing he can imagine: Be good.

[MrStabby]

I think there is a really good plot here. Well a fun one anyway.

Archdevil wants to retire but can't due to threat from his enemies. The adventure is focused on removing his enemies so they are no longer a threat and he can retire in peace.