Shaping a spellcasting "Social God"

[Maan]

For an online game I'm trying to envision a character for myself.

The game is likely to run for years, with different players (and their characters) every session, adventures will be of every type and genre, there is the chance of solo adventures, etc.
Will be starting from level one.

I like the idea of a spellcaster and Specter's guide to the "Social God" intrigued me, so I'd like to try something like that; however I want the character to be able to hold her own in situations other than being a "party face". Especially if she's soloing and find herself in combat!

Overall, I really like the Lore Bard as a chassis for this build; both a class built for social interaction and a powerful spellcaster. Of course, where it is lacking is the direct damage part, so I've thought of a few options.

The Sorcerous Manipulator:

Take a Bard, mix in 3 levels of Sorcerer.
3 levels is the bare minimum for metamagic though here we'll be severely limited in scope, with just two options and a meagre 3 Sorcery Points. However, Subtle Spell at only 1 point would enable a wide range of powerful options in social situations, as well as being situationally useful outside of them. For the other option there are some cheap metamagics, or one could go for Heightened Spell: while a significant use of resources, could be invaluable for when that save-or-suck spell really needs to hit the Big Bad Guy.
Also, +4 cantrips at level 1 and a few spells more useful for open combat.
Full caster slots progression, level 9 spells available.

Weaknesses: losing on 18 level Magical Secrets, which kinda stings. Also, lagging 3 levels behind in spells known.

Subclasses: Draconic doesn't seem to bring much to the concept: extra hp and always on light armor are nice, but this character is not a frontliner; bonuses to charm dragons could be situationally awesome, though. Divine Soul brings +1 spell known, some interesting clerical spells and a bonus to saves/hits; looks like the most interesting option, really. Shadow I'd say it's more useful for a damage dealer and the added survivability again suits a frontliner type better. Wild doesn't seem to offer anything better than Divine Soul; also, I can't really "feel" the randomness fitting into the concept of a social manipulator...

The Eldritch Charmer:

Very simple, add Warlock and shake to spice up your damage.
A couple levels really do wonders to fix the lack of at-will damage for the bard and add some nice spells to the selection, without losing level 18 Magical secrets.
If going for 3 levels, gains either ample versatility with all the rituals in the game (potentially) or a beefed up familiar; the latter + Voice of the Chain Master opens up a lot of shenanigans.

Weaknesses: pretty much same as above, the levels here are also effectively "lost" for caster progression.

Subclasses: Archfey can be pretty nice both thematically and for the ability it offers, useful both socially and otherwise. Celestial offers a bit of emergency healing that is nice, and little else. Great Old One telepathy would be very nice, weren't it one sided. Hexblade is possibly more interesting for a melee gish, though the extra protection and damage are actually nice, as are the extra spells.

The Arcane Dabbler:

Go full bard. Pick up Magic Initiate, possibly Ritual Caster (Wizard) later.
Pick some damage cantrip, possibly a 1 level spell that scales, and call it a day. Works from 1 level if going Variant Human. Later, Ritual Caster for bigger versality and utility spells is an option.

Weaknesses: not a much larger spell selection, nor any widely different options. A bit feat intensive, but a Lore Bard isn't going to need a lot of feats or ASI anyway.


Any comments or ideas are greatly appreciated! :smallsmile:

[sophontteks]

I strongly recommend you take a look at the glamour bard. His 3rd level charm "nuke" is the end all be all of social abilities. The only reason this powerful ability is overlooked is because guides are skewed heavily towards combat optimization.

It is a multi-target charm, it is easy to pull off, it doesn't give you away, there are no consequences, and the actual effect puts all other charms to shame. The target(s) effectively become your adoring fans. If they can help you, they will. If they know of any threats to you, they will tell you. And the followup potential is even more promising. Making further persuasion checks vs. a "close ally" would involve significantly discounted DCs.

The glamour bard's unique inspiration allows your character to specialize in AOE attacks. Think of it as a beefed up evocation wizard. You can move your allies away from an AOE as a bonus action, and give them temp hp as a bonus.

Then you can take bard to 5. You'll get a ton of mileage out of hypnotic pattern, faerie fire, and shatter with your inspiration. The temp HP will further bolster the team as well. Then go sorcerer 3. The draconic AC will help keep you alive if the enemy focuses you.

Otherwise, take enhance ability. I'd recommend expertise in persuasion and insight, or persuasion and performance. Make sure a friend takes guidance and gives it to you often.

[Jcp1195]

(I realize this may not be what you're looking for but maybe you'll enjoy the idea?)

The way I see this, if you're going to be a "Social God" you're going to want to be #humblebrag -ing as much as you can. And this means you need to be Versatile. Why be able to just brag about how you charmed a Giant into doing your bidding when you can do so while regaling your audience about how you "tamed" a Hippogriff and rode it aloft while felling a second giant with a hail of arrows at the same time?

(I won't be going level by level but I'll be highlighting the important parts)

3 levels Sorcerer and 17 Levels Bard would work but it might slow things down a little. If you feel you can cope with it, and you like what I'm suggesting, consider 20 levels Lore Bard or 17 Bard and 3 Rogue. A three level dip into Rogue would net you several handy abilities and if you were to go Swashbuckler for your subclass you could be a menacingly charming opponent, both using your skills of speech to get you ahead in battle (With Rakish Audacity adding CHR to Initiative) and a bit of a leg up whenever you're in the rare occasion of having to deal with your problems up close and personal.

It'll take a bit of investment, but you'll really come online around level 10-13, which shouldn't be too bad if you expect this game to last a few years.

As for race, I'd recommend either Variant Human or Elf, as I'm partial to being boring and simply enjoy them the most. If Variant human, take the Crossbow Expert or War Casting Feats. If Elf, go Eladrin, specifically Spring, Summer, or Autumn, depending on how you'd like your charismatic nature to come out.

Let's discuss what you'll be doing with this kind of build. Mainly, you're going to be a back-row character with occasional up-close moments to show off your versatility. You'll want to make liberal use of a Light Crossbow whenever you need to deal some damage. Starting off, you'll want to play more of a ranged support role, keeping your front liners buffed and healed while shooting the occasional crossbow bolt or two. The downside to this setup is, without Martial Weapon Proficiency, your best bet at ranged weapon damage is a Light Crossbow with Crossbow Expert to get around the Loading property. As well as that though, you can use Rapiers or Shortswords if the need arises.

-----

Your Bardic Magical Secrets really help to make or break this build and while there is some wiggle room, there's a lot of things you desperately need.

At 6th level your choices are fairly open. Take whatever you feel you need to help benefit the party. However I would definitely recommend Haste/Counterspell and Lightning Arrow/Flame Arrows.

At 10th level your choices are a lot more important. Swift Quiver and Find Greater Steed are more or less necessary. Swift Quiver nets you 3 attacks per turn with your crossbow (As long as you've taken crossbow expert), and can really magnify your DPR when you find your way into possession of Magical Arrows and Weapons. Find Greater Steed gets you access to a semi-permanent mount that can be (among other things) a Griffon, Pegasus, or Peryton. With your mount, you can keep yourself safely out of harms way in most fights and provide support/covering fire from a nice vantage point.

At 14th level, your choices can be more open again, though I strongly recommend Tenser's Transformation. Having the ability to turn yourself into a pseudo tank and a temporary front liner can be incredibly important, especially if your other front liners are down for the count. Other suggestions include Awaken, Conjure Celestial, Conjure Fey, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Holy Weapon, Temple of the Gods, Druid Grove, Wrath of Nature, Soul Cage, Crown of Stars, Create Homunculus, Mighty Fortress, and Power Word Pain. These all are just my personal recommendations, but really any spell you feel you may need is worth while.

----

As for feats, Crossbow Expert and War Casting are necessities. Magic Initiate could be handy for getting Mage Armor. Outside of that, Prodigy and Elvish Accuracy can both be handy based on what race you chose and most Feat or ABI choices are up to you. HOWEVER, a significant downside of this build is that it is quite Concentration heavy with its spells, but War Casting helps you cope with that as well as letting you cast Somatic components with your Crossbow in hand.

And I think that about covers it. I played a very similar build recently and it was a lot of fun, and it helps you be an all rounder. You're a Full Caster with substantial Martial capabilities and you can slot in almost anywhere in your team. With all these skills and a bit of adventuring, you'll have so many stories to retell over a round of Ale, your jaw may very well pop off.

----

Edit: Alternatively, if you wanted to stay away from Rogue, a 1 level dip into Warlock would get you access to the Hexblade Subclass' Hex Warrior ability, allowing you to fight with... Pure Charm in a sharp form? OR, a 1-3 level dip into Fighter for Archery Style, and a subclass could also help diversify your build a bit.

[Nhorianscum]

Get guidance, get expertise, rock out.

The quickest "social god" setup is rouge (any) 1/Divine soul 1 Vhuman with actor/prodigy.

At cl6 you have 2nd level spells, (enhance ability/suggestion), expertise in all 5 social skills and subtle metamagic along with guidance.

[Ventruenox]

I've been doing something similar with my current character, though focusing on my character concept rather than being mechanically optimal. I have a fairly lenient DM who allows UA and provided us with a free level 1 feat. I chose a Half-elf Divine Soul Sorcerer, and the Everybody's Friend feat for expertise in deception and persuasion. With Point Buy and racial bonuses, this allowed me to start with 18 CHA. Then took 2 levels into Rogue for more Expertise (Performance & Insight) and Cunning Action. (He's a bit of a coward, but has proven useful and only been downed once in the current campaign.)

Certain Clerical spells used in social settings make for an insanely powerful caster Social God. Guidance, Thaumaturgy, and Command alone carried this character through the earliest levels. Our party was stripped of almost all gear for the first few sessions, but those spells plus Firebolt, and mine was the only non-nerfed PC.

For Metamagic, go with Subtle and Extend. Even though most optimizers scoff at Extend, keep the Clerical spell list in mind and consider the SP cost. It's not everyday you see a resource efficient Sorcerer.

[Maan]

Quite a bit of food for thought here, thank you! :)

Have to say, I never really stopped to think about Glamour Bard because it looked a bit like a one trick pony: if you face opponents immune to being charmed, you get shutdown pretty hard.
But otherwise, it looks brutal in a social setting.

Now I'm thinking about yet another build:

The Fey Blessed:

Glamour Bard + 1-2 levels in Archfey Warlock.
Redundant, but the concept is nice. Also, there's some nasty sinergy between the Archfey Fey Presence and the Glamour Mantle of Majesty: Charm with an action and as a bonus action Command with no save allowed those who failed!
Also, all of the Warlock goodness.

Have to say, for some bizarre reason I've never been a fan of ranged fighters: dunno, I just can't "feel" that concept. I really can't see me playing a character relying on bow or crossbow.

On the other hand, on a short campaign I've played a Sorceress who was a lot into social action. Subtle Spell can compensate nicely for the lack of help from things like Expertise, Cutting Words or Peerless Skill.
However it does suffer from a lack in the number of skills available and Expertise, unless you play with UA and/or multiclass to Rogue 1.

I'm considering though that a Lore Bard has some marked advantage when it comes to rolling skills, even without magic.
If we are talking about social skills that are usually opposed by Insight, Cutting Words at 5th level is the equivalent (statistically) of a +4.5 bonus (or malus to the opponent) which in turn is almost the same as advantage/disadvantage (+/-5). And that doesn't stop the Bard from using things like Enhance Ability too (it can require some doing without Subtle Spell, granted).
Not to mention that later Peerless Skill allows to both buff yourself with an Inspiration dice and debuff the opponent roll with Cutting Words, effectively doubling the bonus!

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm very surprised that neither the Mask of Many Faces invocation, or the Bardic College of Whispers have been mentioned.

Whispers can cause you to force someone to fear you or anyone of your choosing, and it also allows you to steal their appearance after you kill them.

Mask of Many Faces lets you look like anyone you want at will.

I don't think anything could match a Warlock 2, Glamour Bard X, grabbing MoMF and Actor, as a "Social God". Look and sound like anyone, enthrall entire rooms, help your teammates run away when your plan goes awry. Lots of good things.

[sophontteks]

I'm very surprised that neither the Mask of Many Faces invocation, or the Bardic College of Whispers have been mentioned.

Whispers can cause you to force someone to fear you or anyone of your choosing, and it also allows you to steal their appearance after you kill them.

Mask of Many Faces lets you look like anyone you want at will.

I don't think anything could match a Warlock 2, Glamour Bard X, grabbing MoMF and Actor, as a "Social God". Look and sound like anyone, enthrall entire rooms, help your teammates run away when your plan goes awry. Lots of good things.
Yeah, that's a really good idea too. Glamour bard, actor, and mask of many faces would be a seriously good combo.

[sambojin]

I'm very surprised that neither the Mask of Many Faces invocation, or the Bardic College of Whispers have been mentioned.

Whispers can cause you to force someone to fear you or anyone of your choosing, and it also allows you to steal their appearance after you kill them.

Mask of Many Faces lets you look like anyone you want at will.

I don't think anything could match a Warlock 2, Glamour Bard X, grabbing MoMF and Actor, as a "Social God". Look and sound like anyone, enthrall entire rooms, help your teammates run away when your plan goes awry. Lots of good things.


You can somewhat skip the Warlock levels and just take Firbolg as your race if you'd like. Ok, it's not "at will", but 1/short rest Disguise Self that can make you look little, Speech of Telling Animals what to Do, and short rest invis popping can help you social god a bit. It's not a +Cha race, but +2Wis to help out on your perception/insight can be just as nice to boost your sociability sledgehammer (feel free to sub in Cleric 2 or Druid 2 instead of Warlock levels to really leverage the be-friendly or the be-anything side of things). I know at-will is better, but how often will you really use it? Probably about 2-3 times a day, but you'd love a round of invis to flash-change personas when you need to. Everything humanoid between 3'2"-7'2" in height is your disguise as a Firbolg, and 2-3 a day is plenty, especially considering that it sped up your levelling as a Bard or Rogue by two whole levels of xp. It's an entire spell level, or being closer to that ASI, so is entirely worth it to get the basic effect of Warlock 2, without it putting your progress back too far. Or, you could do both I guess, though the double-up of MoMF and short rest D.Self is a waste (though flashing invis with no VSM components is ace for what you want, for MoMF usage).

[Man_Over_Game]

You can somewhat skip the Warlock levels and just take Firbolg as your race if you'd like. Ok, it's not "at will", but 1/short rest Disguise Self that can make you look little, Speech of Telling Animals what to Do, and short rest invis popping can help you social god a bit. It's not a +Cha race, but +2Wis to help out on your perception/insight can be just as nice to boost your sociability sledgehammer (feel free to sub in Cleric 2 or Druid 2 instead of Warlock levels to really leverage the be-friendly or the be-anything side of things). I know at-will is better, but how often will you really use it? Probably about 2-3 times a day, but you'd love a round of invis to flash-change personas when you need to. Everything humanoid between 3'2"-7'2" in height is your disguise as a Firbolg, and 2-3 a day is plenty, especially considering that it sped up your levelling as a Bard or Rogue by two whole levels of xp. It's an entire spell level, or being closer to that ASI, so is entirely worth it to get the basic effect of Warlock 2, without it putting your progress back too far. Or, you could do both I guess, though the double-up of MoMF and short rest D.Self is a waste (though flashing invis with no VSM components is ace for what you want, for MoMF usage).

I don't know about you, but my Warlock was shapeshifting into everyone, all the time. Walked into a bar looking like a pirate to post an Illusory Script on the wall for my contact, turned around the corner to appear like an escort to get a view of some of the important people in the bar, appeared like the innkeeper to hand out some orders to some people so I could "handle" the register. Take another corner and Prestidigitation and now I look and smell like a drunkard on his way to hurl his guts out outside.

Got caught once by some bad guys because of some black market bounty on my head. After shapeshifting into their boss and the local captain that they wanted dead in the same minute, they signed me on as some temporary help. Of course, I just regrouped with my party and we killed them all as soon as the baddies lost sight of me.

You don't really consider how valuable "Disguise Self as a Cantrip" would be until you've gotten used to it. I'm not sure I could really look at any other non-Warlock social class the same way.

[Nhorianscum]

For at-will disguise I'm pretty sure changeling trumps warlock 2 every time

[Man_Over_Game]

For at-will disguise I'm pretty sure changeling trumps warlock 2 every time

Sure, but the Changeling is Unearthed Arcana, basically glorified Homebrew. A DM could reasonably say you couldn't do that, but a DM would probably be stepping out of bounds at some tables to block official class features.

[sophontteks]

There is a changling in ebberon but it doesn't compete with disguise self, despite its similiarities. A changling can only change its physical appearance. He can't change the appearance of his possessions. A changling would still need to make a profeciency check with a disguise kit, and have the time and resources to make the disguise.

This doesn't really compete with a warlock switching every aspect of his appearance at-will.

[Man_Over_Game]

There is a changling in ebberon but it doesn't compete with disguise self, despite its similiarities. A changling can only change its physical appearance. He can't change the appearance of his possessions. A changling would still need to make a profeciency check with a disguise kit, and have the time and resources to make the disguise.

This doesn't really compete with a warlock switching every aspect of his appearance at-will.

Eberron still is UA material.

Wayfinder's Guide is...kind of Unearthed Arcana and kind of official. You can play Wayfinder's Guide's races in Adventure League, but only in Eberron AL, which has its own rules. It's also paid content.

So it's unofficially official stuff, I guess.

[Nhorianscum]

Eberron still is UA material.

Wayfinder's Guide is...kind of Unearthed Arcana and kind of official. You can play Wayfinder's Guide's races in Adventure League, but only in Eberron AL, which has its own rules. It's also paid content.

So it's unofficially official stuff, I guess.

It's official (and we just got a nice expansion on it!)

In home games where social builds are... actually useful, it's somewhat DM dependant what content can be used in non-ebberon settings but a racial pick that's not packing a dragonmark should be kosher at most tables.

[apepi]

Divination Wizard and Detect Thoughts, You gain an advantage by being able to know what they are thinking. Or use Modify Memory if the conversation does not go well and just make them think that it did and have them give you what you want.

[Maan]

The College of Whispers ins't my cup of tea but it looks pretty good for a darker or outright evil bard, that's for sure.

About Mask of Many Faces I don't know...
Disguise Self is a good spell, but you can be unmasked (pun intended) with a good Investigation roll against your save DC. Also, it's a first level slot: at Warlock 2 + any spellcaster 3 you have 4 first level slots + 2 first level Warlock slots; that's potentially 6 casts of the spell in a row, even without the invocation.
I don't mean it can't be powerful, I think it can be; that's just one of those YMMV features.

Speaking of Eldritch Invocations, Gaze of Two Minds could be pretty useful too: with Glamour Bard you should have no shortage of "willing humanoids" to use it upon.
Devil's Sight could also be more useful than it sounds: it's not just Darkvision, you see perfectly even in total darkness. When nosing around at night in some place where you shouldn't be, having no light giving your presence away while reading those classified papers is gold.

[Specter]

You're looking good with the Bard/Sorcerer here. The main problem you'll have is when to take levels of Sorcerer. At Bard 2 you have JoAT, and at 3 you have 2nd-level-spells, and at 4 an ASI... it's always hard to start the multiclass.

If you just want better damage options, then perhaps Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) for cantrips would be enough? If not, then I'd start as Sorcerer to get the CON save proficiency.

[Maan]

You're looking good with the Bard/Sorcerer here. The main problem you'll have is when to take levels of Sorcerer. At Bard 2 you have JoAT, and at 3 you have 2nd-level-spells, and at 4 an ASI... it's always hard to start the multiclass.

If you just want better damage options, then perhaps Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) for cantrips would be enough? If not, then I'd start as Sorcerer to get the CON save proficiency.

Oh wow, I accidentally summoned The Man himself! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for your guide, I found it immensely helpful!

I was thinking, for that build: Sorcerer 1 for Con save, Bard until level 5 (for 3rd level spells), then 2 more levels as Sorcerer.

I have also theorycrafted a Sorcerer social build:

Sorcerer 19/Rogue 1
Variant Human
It gets 5 ASI; 9th level spells known; 15 spells known; at-will damage via Cantrips; Metamagic (Subtle Spell et al.)
1 level as Rogue gives access to Expertise in two skills and also Thieves Tools and Light Armor.
Skills:
Deception (X), Insight (X), Perception, Persuasion, Intimidation, and another one. Prodigy Feat gives access to Expertise in another skill.
Feats: Prodigy, Lucky. I think the chance to reroll a failure at a critical moment is invaluable.
Most viable subclasses:
Divine Soul: +1 spell known (in a spell starved class), +2d4 to saves/attacks 1/rest, access to the very useful cleric spell list; 6th level, bonus to healing; 14th level, fly; 18th level, recover half HP 1/l.rest.
Wild Magic: advantage on saves/attacks/ability checks 1/l.rest (at least); 6th level, +/- 1d4 to saves/attacks/ability checks per 2 SP; 14th level, less dangerous Surges.
Divine Soul is likely the winner: the bonus spell and access to cleric spells win the day alone; other stuff is less useful for the concept, though they are no doubt handy (fly at will is quite rare and saves a much needed spell known slot).
Wild Magic is actually powerful too, with at-will Advantage and 1d4 bonus/malus that both include skill checks too; you have to live with the very unlikely chance to randomly drop a Fireball on the meeting you are attending, though!

I think the Sorcerer as a chassis for a Social God can work, but it has to use magic to compensate for the lack of specific features (Expertise, Cutting Words, etc.). Given the very limited spells known this class has to live with, it can end up being way too narrowly focused. However, being free to cast spells in social situations undetected or seriously hamper a victim saving throw is pretty powerful.

In the end, the weight of Subtle Spell it's very much campaign/DM dependant, I think.
If the DM allows you to cast "stealthy spells" with Stealth/Sleight of Hand you can just live with those Skills, preferably with Expertise and Lucky on top to avoid being caught red-handed. If this is the case, one can just go full Bard, maybe with Magic Initiate for some direct damage option or 1-2 levels as Warlock; if choosing the last, Archfey offers a nice panic button. Also, some Eldritch Invocations can be very powerful socially.

[Specter]

Oh wow, I accidentally summoned The Man himself! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for your guide, I found it immensely helpful!

I was thinking, for that build: Sorcerer 1 for Con save, Bard until level 5 (for 3rd level spells), then 2 more levels as Sorcerer.

I have also theorycrafted a Sorcerer social build:

Sorcerer 19/Rogue 1
Variant Human
It gets 5 ASI; 9th level spells known; 15 spells known; at-will damage via Cantrips; Metamagic (Subtle Spell et al.)
1 level as Rogue gives access to Expertise in two skills and also Thieves Tools and Light Armor.
Skills:
Deception (X), Insight (X), Perception, Persuasion, Intimidation, and another one. Prodigy Feat gives access to Expertise in another skill.
Feats: Prodigy, Lucky. I think the chance to reroll a failure at a critical moment is invaluable.
Most viable subclasses:
Divine Soul: +1 spell known (in a spell starved class), +2d4 to saves/attacks 1/rest, access to the very useful cleric spell list; 6th level, bonus to healing; 14th level, fly; 18th level, recover half HP 1/l.rest.
Wild Magic: advantage on saves/attacks/ability checks 1/l.rest (at least); 6th level, +/- 1d4 to saves/attacks/ability checks per 2 SP; 14th level, less dangerous Surges.
Divine Soul is likely the winner: the bonus spell and access to cleric spells win the day alone; other stuff is less useful for the concept, though they are no doubt handy (fly at will is quite rare and saves a much needed spell known slot).
Wild Magic is actually powerful too, with at-will Advantage and 1d4 bonus/malus that both include skill checks too; you have to live with the very unlikely chance to randomly drop a Fireball on the meeting you are attending, though!

I think the Sorcerer as a chassis for a Social God can work, but it has to use magic to compensate for the lack of specific features (Expertise, Cutting Words, etc.). Given the very limited spells known this class has to live with, it can end up being way too narrowly focused. However, being free to cast spells in social situations undetected or seriously hamper a victim saving throw is pretty powerful.

In the end, the weight of Subtle Spell it's very much campaign/DM dependant, I think.
If the DM allows you to cast "stealthy spells" with Stealth/Sleight of Hand you can just live with those Skills, preferably with Expertise and Lucky on top to avoid being caught red-handed. If this is the case, one can just go full Bard, maybe with Magic Initiate for some direct damage option or 1-2 levels as Warlock; if choosing the last, Archfey offers a nice panic button. Also, some Eldritch Invocations can be very powerful socially.

Yep. Some DM's won't even mind if you cast in front of whoever you're talking to, as long as there are no verbal components.

But now we're overthinking this. Go out there and have some fun, you have the right idea.

[sophontteks]

Just to give an idea how powerful subtle is I have a couple short examples that are part of my sorcerer's bag of tricks.

When confronted by a someone looking for a fight, subtle cast Phantasmal force on them to create an illusionary "3rd party" that attacks them instead. In this situation casting a spell normally would have been a hostile act and caused you to roll initiative. Instead the target is taking 10d6 damage and is thoughly disinclined from picking a fight. My favorite is bees.

If your party is trying to get rid of an important authority figure simply join them in a very fancy event, like a ball. Then subtle cast enemies abound on them. Grab popcorn and enjoy watching them furiously lashing out at everyone nearby like crazed animal. Enemies abound requires them to swing on reactions too!

[Maan]

But now we're overthinking this
That's my trademark! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks again for your help.


Just to give an idea how powerful subtle is I have a couple short examples that are part of my sorcerer's bag of tricks.

When confronted by a someone looking for a fight, subtle cast Phantasmal force on them to create an illusionary "3rd party" that attacks them instead. In this situation casting a spell normally would have been a hostile act and caused you to roll initiative. Instead the target is taking 10d6 damage and is thoughly disinclined from picking a fight. My favorite is bees.

If your party is trying to get rid of an important authority figure simply join them in a very fancy event, like a ball. Then subtle cast enemies abound on them. Grab popcorn and enjoy watching them furiously lashing out at everyone nearby like crazed animal. Enemies abound requires them to swing on reactions too!
Yep, even something as "innocent" as Tasha's Hideous Laughter in a social setting can be pretty disruptive to reputations!

Not to mention that Subtle Spell lets you cast even when Silenced, Grappled, bound&gagged, etc. Had it happen against a Cleric: it was a pretty nasty surprise to him!