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View Full Version : Zero to Hero (Or How a determined DM turned the worst campaign into the best)



rmnimoc
2019-03-19, 09:04 PM
About a year and a half ago I posted a thread on here about a campaign that went sour towards the end after our DM made some questionable decisions. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542483-I-m-still-a-little-upset-but-is-it-really-as-bad-as-it-seems-to-me-(Forcecage)). Afterwards he asked about another game, and ultimately everyone in the part (including me eventually) agreed to it. That's the story as the last thread left it.

A little over a month later he got in touch and mentioned that he was running a pair of new campaigns in a shared world and asked if it was okay if we joined in the campaign latter in their story, after they were a bit higher level and had some more experience under their belts. So I heard from him a few more times over the months about the progress of the players and how the campaign was going in general, though he was pretty cagey with any details about the setting. Come October, 11 months after the last game our old campaign, he mentions that the campaign and the players have finally reached a good point for us to jump in, but then he asks if it would be okay if we took a few plot critical NPCs as new characters instead of making new ones. We agree, and a date for our introduction to the campaign is finally set, the one year anniversary of the last game of our last campaign with him.

We all show up for the game to discover he's already part way through running the game and so he has us all in a second chat until it's our time to hop in, though he do get to see what the other players are up to. We ask for the character sheets of the new characters and he says he already gave them to us, but since we've played a campaign with him before he's pretty confident we'll pick up the characters easily enough even if we don't have them until we actually enter the game.

That was red flag number 1 in my mind. While he made pretty big mistake before, he was otherwise a fairly good DM and this seems totally out of left field and rather weird. Red flag number 2 was raised when the big bads from the previous game showed up as these quasi-invincible super-badasses that the party didn't stand a chance against thanks to both being way higher level than the parties and also all kinds of absurd magical items that they apparently got from a bunch of evil gods. They'd also apparently taken over the world. Whatever, the DM obviously liked those characters so it made sense he'd use them again, even if it was a bit odd. Red flag number 3 was that he had two games running simultaneously (the two campaigns merged back together and the characters had shared goals that they both had to succeed for things to go well).

Despite all the red flags though, the game seemed to be going well. The players were all happy and the game really had a "Lord of the Rings"-esque vibe to it, where the goals of the parties were never to beat the bad guys and it was pretty clear they weren't anywhere on the level to stand a chance (it was clearly close to the end of the campaign but the party was only level 7). Instead each party had a MacGuffin they had to deliver to some location to do some nebulous thing that would allow the good gods to "set right what went wrong" and give them the edge against evil. Meanwhile each party had their own sort of rival group running around and trying to stop them. Anyway, the parties managed to get the MacGuffins to do their thing. Now we're given the stuff to enter Fantasy Grounds and what should await us but our old characters on the old map, exactly as it was when the TPK finally happened. Then the DM seemed to reset everything to how it was just before the fight began and two parties of level 7s showed up just as the bad guys sprung their trap.

Apparently the DM felt bad enough about the whole thing to make the main goal of that entire campaign to fix that mistake, with the party being trapped in some weird thing where we kept having to relive that fight for eternity. Anyway, a cleric from party A tossed me some swanky teleportation boots and all of a sudden the fight was afoot. With a small army of ten level 7s and me not stuck on the sidelines unable to fight, the TPK became a stomp in the other direction. Our original party split up between parties A and B and the real endgame started. Over the next few months we pushed back, shattered the hold the bad guys had on the world, beat the rival groups, and even took down the new and improved big bads. Ultimately everyone in the original party died over the course of the next few games, but since this time our characters went out like heroes making things that were otherwise impossible for the others possible in straight up cinema-worthy fashion (my character died from wounds caused by a souped-up Sword of Wounding after saving the party from a TPK and single-handed killing the big bads (who weren't actually the finally enemies of the campaign, though it was still the second to last game)) instead of a bunch of chumps who just got screwed by "Surprise Forcecage", no one had any real issue with it.

In the end, we all died to the same enemies, but it was still enough to turn the campaign I had the worst memories of into the one I have the best memories of.

Just thought I'd share that, both as a "this was a super cool campaign idea" story and as a "give the other people at the table the benefit of the doubt, because they just might surprise you" story.

MaxWilson
2019-03-19, 09:39 PM
Interesting story. Thanks for sharing. I read your original story about the Forecage, and I wanted to respond to this remark:

<<Since no spell below 6th level can destroy it and you don't get those until 11 there was nothing our wizard could do.>>

That's not necessarily true. Obviously I don't know what spells your wizard had prepared, but if for example he had cast a Rope Trick, the whole party (except you) could potentially have vanished up the Rope Trick to wait for the Forcecage to run out. Or they could have flown away with Fly or left via Dimension Door/Phantom Steed. Potentially they could even have Counterspelled the Forcecage as it was cast, depending on the details of how the item worked.

Spell durations in 5E are pretty short, and a party that is built to disengage when necessary has additional tactical options in many scenarios. (E.g. Dragon Fear: even if your Wisdom save is crummy, if you can disengage from combat and wait it out, you can come back in a minute or so when the fear is over.)

Malifice
2019-03-19, 10:03 PM
Just thought I'd share that, both as a "this was a super cool campaign idea" story and as a "give the other people at the table the benefit of the doubt, because they just might surprise you" story.

Sounds like a reasonable attempt to set things right.

Still, 'you're in a Forcecage, no initiative, no perception, nothing' is a **** move, and against the rules (and the spirit) of the game.

Galithar
2019-03-19, 10:12 PM
Sounds like a reasonable attempt to set things right.

Still, 'you're in a Forcecage, no initiative, no perception, nothing' is a **** move, and against the rules (and the spirit) of the game.

Now I didn't read the original post, but what you just described is not against the rules.

Enemy spellcaster is hiding. I compare your passive perception against his stealth check. You don't notice him. No one is actively searching to make a perception roll. He casts forcecage.
You're in a forcecage, NOW roll initiative and wait for the rest of the enemies surprise round to finish.

On topic, I love that method of recovery. Whether it was bad DMing or not that caused the TPK giving the players a chance to have a 'do over' and making it align with the game fiction is fantastic.

Unoriginal
2019-03-20, 04:09 AM
Now I didn't read the original post, but what you just described is not against the rules.

Enemy spellcaster is hiding. I compare your passive perception against his stealth check. You don't notice him. No one is actively searching to make a perception roll. He casts forcecage.
You're in a forcecage, NOW roll initiative and wait for the rest of the enemies surprise round to finish.

On topic, I love that method of recovery. Whether it was bad DMing or not that caused the TPK giving the players a chance to have a 'do over' and making it align with the game fiction is fantastic.

Initiative happens whenever the hostilities start. The PC would have been surprised, but it doesn't mean the assault happens outside of Initiative.

Malifice
2019-03-20, 09:46 AM
Enemy spellcaster is hiding. I compare your passive perception against his stealth check. You don't notice him. No one is actively searching to make a perception roll. He casts forcecage.

Not before you roll initiative he doesn't.

Read the rules. Initiative comes first. When his turn comes up on round 1, he can cast Forcecage.

Potentially some of the PCs might be immune to surprise, or roll higher than him on initiative and be able to act first.

Cynthaer
2019-03-20, 09:56 AM
I feel like turning this thread into a full relitigation of the original bad TPK is kind of against the spirit of this thread.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the first TPK fight followed RAW or not. The point is, it was a bad end, everybody involved felt bad about it including the DM, and the DM did a pretty cool and elaborate thing to turn that around into an epic story after the fact.

Isn't that much more interesting than the details of the first TPK?

Unoriginal
2019-03-20, 10:01 AM
I feel like turning this thread into a full relitigation of the original bad TPK is kind of against the spirit of this thread.

It doesn't really matter whether or not the first TPK fight followed RAW or not. The point is, it was a bad end, everybody involved felt bad about it including the DM, and the DM did a pretty cool and elaborate thing to turn that around into an epic story after the fact.

Isn't that much more interesting than the details of the first TPK?

Define "interesting". I'm certainly happy for everyone involved, DM and players both, but I don't think there is much to discuss about this story which ended happily and in a manner that left people satisfied.

We could share stories of DMs who messed up and then tried to correct it, successfully or not, I suppose.

I had a DM who decided to have a demon steal the artifact-sword we needed and escape in a cutscene, when the characters' abilities could have prevented it. It didn't go well with most of the table, including myself. So he responsed the next session by letting us chase the demon in a chaos-devastated castle, with Looney Tunes physics. Problem is, we still had no chance to catch the demon, despite still having the same abilities that would have prevented the escape, because DM fiat.

Somehow I was the only one still displeased after this retcon that wasted most of a session.

Cynthaer
2019-03-20, 10:20 AM
Define "interesting". I'm certainly happy for everyone involved, DM and players both, but I don't think there is much to discuss about this story which ended happily and in a manner that left people satisfied.

We could share stories of DMs who messed up and then tried to correct it, successfully or not, I suppose.
I mean, yeah. Stories of bad DMs are a dime a dozen, but stories of DMs fixing things they already messed up are much more practically useful for anyone who wants to be a good DM, IMO.

EDIT:


I had a DM who decided to have a demon steal the artifact-sword we needed and escape in a cutscene, when the characters' abilities could have prevented it. It didn't go well with most of the table, including myself. So he responsed the next session by letting us chase the demon in a chaos-devastated castle, with Looney Tunes physics. Problem is, we still had no chance to catch the demon, despite still having the same abilities that would have prevented the escape, because DM fiat.

Somehow I was the only one still displeased after this retcon that wasted most of a session.
For instance, this is fairly interesting to me.

On the one hand, I'd say that this is a good idea with bad execution—after accidentally making you guys unhappy by denying you the chance to derail the enemy's plans, the DM corrected course by making the escape into an actual event, rather than a cutscene. But, as you say, it still ended up being impossible. I'd recommend any DM who finds themselves in a similar position take advantage of the time between sessions to plan for the players actually stopping the villain, so they don't feel locked into the "villain gets away" outcome.

On the other hand, it's interesting that everyone but you seemed to be fine with this version of events, but not the first one. Do you think maybe the other players weren't too bothered by the villain being uncatchable, but were bothered by it happening as a "cutscene" instead of at least giving them a big setpiece chase scene?

Wuzza
2019-03-20, 12:11 PM
Then the DM seemed to reset everything to how it was just before the fight began and two parties of level 7s showed up just as the bad guys sprung their trap.

Both myself and the other DM in our group have done this, although not regarding combat, just things that happened that would really spoil the game, both fortunately happened right at the end of a session, and we came back literally winding time back by about 5 mins. Mine was where a player threw a bit of a strop, which if I went with it would have split the party, his was at the end of LMoP, where he moved it into a homebrew before he worked out what he wanted to do with it, and realised it wouldn't work.

Both times were for the betterment of the adventure, and everyone was happy to gloss over the "time rewind"

Good on the DM for acknowledging an error imo, after all, they are human as well, and happy for all it turned into something memorable. :smallsmile: