Is Rogue the best first level there is?

[Barebarian]

You get six skills, two expertises, sneak attack, thieves cant, tight leather pants, is there any downsides??
I can't really think of any better option for starting martials and heck, even just the first level in rogue would make any caster way more versatile!

[ProsecutorGodot]

You get a lot of those features through multiclassing.

The only thing starting Rogue has over starting Fighter is two skill proficiency and saving throw proficiencies.

Starting Fighter, for example, gives you: All Weapon and Armor proficiency (many of which Rogues do not have), Saving throw proficiencies and 2 more hit points. Multiclassing into Fighter later will not get you Heavy Armor proficiency. Multiclassing into Rogue later does however give you an extra skill proficiency.

Each class also usually has one major saving throw proficiency and one minor; Dex, Wis, Con being Majors, Cha, Int, Str being minors. Constitution is incredibly powerful for Spellcasters so many multiclassed Wizards(Bards, Warlocks, Clerics) consider taking their first level in Fighter.

Short answer: No it's not, there isn't really a defined best first level but if there was, Fighter is the likely candidate. That's not to say that multiclassing into Rogue isn't an almost universally good choice.

[hymer]

You get six skills, two expertises, sneak attack, thieves cant, tight leather pants, is there any downsides??
I can't really think of any better option for starting martials and heck, even just the first level in rogue would make any caster way more versatile!
No doubt it's pretty good. But downsides abound. You're down 4hp compared to starting as barbarian; if you intend to be a paladin or fighter you lose access to heavy armour; it steers you towards dex builds, constraining your options; it delays your progress towards ASIs, two attacks, etc. by a level; it really beckons you to add another level in rogue for the juicy cunning action, expanding on many of these themes.

All that said, I'll reiterate: It is very often an excellent option mechanically speaking.

[nickl_2000]

There are several really solid choices for a single level dip

1) Rogue - Expertise, skills, and 1d6 sneak attack
2) Cleric - subclass feature, level 1 spells, cantrips, and armor
3) Fighter - Heavy Armor, fighting style, second wind, and all weapons
4) Warlock - EB blasty goodness, other cantrips, and hexblade!


Depending on your need for a character all of these are really, really good choices.

[CTurbo]

I think Cleric gets the award for best 1st level followed by Fighter probably.

Honorable mentions would be Barbarian and Rogue

[NaughtyTiger]

Sneak attack doesn't help if you aren't going to use Ranged/Finesse weapon.

Int saving throw is the weak of the saving throws (although XgtE made it a little more important)

The Extra skills aren't always useful.

[Barebarian]

I think Cleric gets the award for best 1st level followed by Fighter probably.

Honorable mentions would be Barbarian and Rogue

Okay I'm gonna try and hit all the replies but this one makes me curious. Why Cleric? I don't think I've ever heard of that as a candidate for best first level before.

I am personally quite fond of Barbarian also. :smallamused:

[BigPixie]

1st lvl tempest cleric up to 5 times a day 2d8 lightning if memory serves. also heavy armor and a max dmge lighning/thunder every short rest at lvl 2.

[Xihirli]

My Bard has a single life Cleric dip that let her use heavy armor (Mithral plate was found by tenth level), empowered her healing spells, gave her six more first level spells and three more cantrips. Cleric is a spectacular dip that I will love forever.

[ProsecutorGodot]

1st lvl tempest cleric up to 5 times a day 2d8 lightning if memory serves. also heavy armor and a max dmge lighning/thunder every short rest at lvl 2.

That's assuming that you can even be hit 5 times in one day without being killed as a first level Cleric. Also requires you to start at level 1 with a wisdom score of 20.

Then you're also not gaining any more benefit from it than you would have by starting another class and multiclassing into Cleric. Best first level? No, but it is potentially one of the best single level dips to multiclass for.

Many responders here seem to be mistaking the difference between "first character level" and "first class level" where the OP is asking in reference to the former.

[Dr. Cliché]

I mean, if I was doing a Rogue/Something multiclass, I'd usually be tempted to start with the rogue just for the skills.

However, at least in my opinion, the rogue only really comes online at lv2 (when it gets Cunning Action).

[MThurston]

There are several really solid choices for a single level dip

1) Rogue - Expertise, skills, and 1d6 sneak attack
2) Cleric - subclass feature, level 1 spells, cantrips, and armor
3) Fighter - Heavy Armor, fighting style, second wind, and all weapons
4) Warlock - EB blasty goodness, other cantrips, and hexblade!


Depending on your need for a character all of these are really, really good choices.

When you multiclass into fighter, you don't get heavy, you get medium armor.

[NaughtyTiger]

There is a difference between dip and starting class.

Cleric gets heavy armor regardless of when you dip.
So is their something special about Cleric skill choices or Saving throws that makes it such a good "level 1" pick?

Fighter - heavy armor, Str/Con
Ranger - heavy armor, Dex/Str
Rogue - extra skill, Dex/Int (i guess if Int is a dump stat, then saving throw gives you a chance against a mind flayer)
Paladin - heavy armor, Str/Con
Sorc - Cha/Con (personally like that one)

[CTurbo]

Okay I'm gonna try and hit all the replies but this one makes me curious. Why Cleric? I don't think I've ever heard of that as a candidate for best first level before.

I am personally quite fond of Barbarian also. :smallamused:


1. Clerics are the ONLY class that you can dip 1 level into and get Heavy Armor.
2. Clerics get possibly the best cantrip = Guidance
3. Clerics get possibly the best first level spell = Bless
4. Cleric has many different domains that all offer extremely interesting and useful things. Here are 5 examples-
*4a. War Cleric gets a bonus action attack.
*4b. Tempest Cleric gets a fun reaction ability to deal 2d8 damage.
*4c. Light gets a useful reaction ability that causes attacks against you to have disadvantage.
*4d. Life gets you improved healing options.
*4e. Forge has a floating magic weapon/armor option.

[ProsecutorGodot]

1. Clerics are the ONLY class that you can dip 1 level into and get Heavy Armor.
2. Clerics get possibly the best cantrip = Guidance
3. Clerics get possibly the best first level spell = Bless
4. Cleric has many different domains that all offer extremely interesting and useful things. Here are 5 examples-
*4a. War Cleric gets a bonus action attack.
*4b. Tempest Cleric gets a fun reaction ability to deal 2d8 damage.
*4c. Light gets a useful reaction ability that causes attacks against you to have disadvantage.
*4d. Life gets you improved healing options.
*4e. Forge has a floating magic weapon/armor option.

And none of those benefits require you to take your first character level in Cleric.

Compare that to taking your first level in Fighter or multiclassing into Fighter. There is a difference.

[BigPixie]

That's assuming that you can even be hit 5 times in one day without being killed as a first level Cleric. Also requires you to start at level 1 with a wisdom score of 20.

Then you're also not gaining any more benefit from it than you would have by starting another class and multiclassing into Cleric. Best first level? No, but it is potentially one of the best single level dips to multiclass for.

Many responders here seem to be mistaking the difference between "first character level" and "first class level" where the OP is asking in reference to the former.

I know thats what the OP was saying but you have to admit as 1st level reaction damage thats pretty sweet.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I know thats what the OP was saying but you have to admit as 1st level reaction damage thats pretty sweet.

5ft range requiring you to be hit with an attack (notably not "take damage") and doing less damage on average than Hellish Rebuke, the main benefit being that it isn't using a spell slot and at later levels you can choose to maximize this damage once (2nd) twice (6th) or three times (18th) per rest. You'll almost always have better things to maximize though.

I'd say it's about average, perhaps slightly above average. It's more of a sidegrade to Hellish Rebuke which isn't known for being fantastically powerful.

[BigPixie]

5ft range requiring you to be hit with an attack (notably not "take damage") and doing less damage on average than Hellish Rebuke, the main benefit being that it isn't using a spell slot and at later levels you can choose to maximize this damage once (2nd) twice (6th) or three times (18th) per rest. You'll almost always have better things to maximize though.

I'd say it's about average, perhaps slightly above average. It's more of a sidegrade to Hellish Rebuke which isn't known for being fantastically powerful.
Yeah but a 1st level warlock won't have plate mail or even chain. Also, a lock wouldn't want to burn one of its limited slots

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah but a 1st level warlock won't have plate mail or even chain.

A 1st level Warlock also isn't required to be in melee to use the feature and has other tools to get a desirable AC (Hexblade for example) so like I said, it's a sidegrade, there are variables that make one better than the other.

[BigPixie]

A 1st level Warlock also isn't required to be in melee to use the feature and has other tools to get a desirable AC (Hexblade for example) so like I said, it's a sidegrade, there are variables that make one better than the other.

Fine, Fine you win. :smalltongue: I love warlocks so much that it pains me to argue against them.

[nickl_2000]

When you multiclass into fighter, you don't get heavy, you get medium armor.

Huh, thanks for mentioning that. I never noticed that at all.

[diplomancer]

The most powerful 1st level character is, probably, a cleric. Before Hexblade, it was also definitely the best 1-level dip. That said, if you are going to start with 1-level in a class and later go on to another, Rogue, Fighter and Barbarians could be better, maybe even for spellcasters.

[Rukelnikov]

There is a difference between dip and starting class.

Cleric gets heavy armor regardless of when you dip.
So is their something special about Cleric skill choices or Saving throws that makes it such a good "level 1" pick?

Fighter - heavy armor, Str/Con
Ranger - heavy armor, Dex/Str
Rogue - extra skill, Dex/Int (i guess if Int is a dump stat, then saving throw gives you a chance against a mind flayer)
Paladin - heavy armor, Str/Con Wis/Cha
Sorc - Cha/Con (personally like that one)

Couple fixes.

Also, chekcing this I just noticed MCing into Ranger does NOT give weapon proficiency, its kind of a pretty major limitation on becoming Ranger actually.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Couple fixes.

Also, chekcing this I just noticed MCing into Ranger does NOT give weapon proficiency, its kind of a pretty major limitation on becoming Ranger actually.

It's possible that the source you're using is out of date or incorrect as Multiclassing into Ranger does give you weapon proficiencies.

My PHB and DND Beyond(PHB and Basic Rules) both say that you gain weapon proficiencies.
The Basic Rules document off the WoTC site doesn't actually show the table where you gain proficiencies, it just tells you where to find it in the PHB

[NaughtyTiger]

Couple fixes.

utter laziness on my part. thanks.

[Rukelnikov]

It's possible that the source you're using is out of date or incorrect as Multiclassing into Ranger does give you weapon proficiencies.

My PHB and DND Beyond(PHB and Basic Rules) both say that you gain weapon proficiencies.
The Basic Rules document off the WoTC site doesn't actually show the table where you gain proficiencies, it just tells you where to find it in the PHB

Yup, the source I was using was wrong. Checked PHB and they do gain weapon profs, thank god.


utter laziness on my part. thanks.

No prob

[Man_Over_Game]

There is a difference between dip and starting class.

Cleric gets heavy armor regardless of when you dip.
So is their something special about Cleric skill choices or Saving throws that makes it such a good "level 1" pick?

Fighter - heavy armor, Str/Con
Ranger - heavy armor, Dex/Str
Rogue - extra skill, Dex/Int (i guess if Int is a dump stat, then saving throw gives you a chance against a mind flayer)
Paladin - heavy armor, Str/Con
Sorc - Cha/Con (personally like that one)

Starting bonuses:
Barbarian: Str/Con, +2 - +4 starting HP
Bard: Dex/Cha, +2 skills, +2 musical instruments
Rogue: Dex/Int, +3 skills

Barbarian is a favorite for any non-caster melee class. Starting out with +15% HP and having Constitution as a Saving Throw while also using Rage is pretty hard to beat. I find that Bard has all the benefits of starting out as a Rogue, but it comes with spellcasting; I just feel like starting out as a Bard is everything that a Rogue is, but better.

[PeteNutButter]

I'd say you'd have to define your parameters a bit more. Are we talking the best first level to just play at level 1? The best first level in a higher level character? If you plan on taking multiple of the classes proposed best first levels that changes it as well.

I'd have to jump on the fighter train for pretty much all of these. Cleric is a great single level dip, but you gain nothing from taking it at first level. Fighter gives all the goodies, of which heavy armor and con saves are only gained at level 1. If you plan on spellcasting con saves are strictly superior to wisdom saves. If you don't plan on spellcasting, then cleric isn't a debate. Basically a Fighter 1/Cleric 1 is better than a Cleric 1/Fighter 1. While not a super practical build, that should demonstrate which is the better first level.

If you are talking actual first level characters, fighter FS gives them a big edge on either AC or damage, and they get short rest healing on a bonus action. Even so, a party full of clerics probably does better at level 1, just because healing word can pick up allies.

As for skills, ranger, rogue, and bard all give a skill when MC into. A bunch of subclasses give skills too. It's pretty easy to get all the skills for which you have high stats + perception, which is all any class really needs. IMO if you don't have a high stat in a skill, it's probably not worth all that much as someone else in the party can usually do it better. In that sense skills have a bit of diminishing returns.

[NaughtyTiger]

Starting bonuses:
Barbarian: Str/Con, +2 - +4 starting HP
Bard: Dex/Cha, +2 skills, +2 musical instruments
Rogue: Dex/Int, +3 skills

Barbarian is a favorite for any non-caster melee class. Starting out with +15% HP and having Constitution as a Saving Throw while also using Rage is pretty hard to beat. I find that Bard has all the benefits of starting out as a Rogue, but it comes with spellcasting; I just feel like starting out as a Bard is everything that a Rogue is, but better.

I should have clarified my list. it was the difference between starting as vs a dip.
the difference between starting rogue and dip rogue isn't +3 skills?

level 1 rogue + background = 4+2 = 6 skills
vs
level 1 barbarian + background + rogue = 2 + 2 + 1 = 5 skills.

[Man_Over_Game]

I should have clarified my list. it was the difference between starting as vs a dip.
the difference between starting rogue and dip rogue isn't +3 skills?

level 1 rogue + background = 4+2 = 6 skills
vs
level 1 barbarian + background + rogue = 2 + 2 + 1 = 5 skills.

So was mine.

The Rogue normally starts with 4 skills, but only gets 1 as a dip, meaning starting as one gets you 3 more skills.
The Bard normally starts with 3 skills and 3 instruments, but only gets 1 of each as a dip, so you get 2 more of each by starting as a Bard.
Starting as a Barbarian means you gain 12 HP, but dipping into one grants you 1d12 (which averages to 6.5). The +2/+4 difference is in comparison to starting out as any other class (A Fighter starts with 10, a Rogue starts with 8)

[NaughtyTiger]

So was mine.

The Rogue normally starts with 4 skills, but only gets 1 as a dip, meaning starting as one gets you 3 more skills.
The Bard normally starts with 3 skills and 3 instruments, but only gets 1 of each as a dip, so you get 2 more of each by starting as a Bard.
Starting as a Barbarian means you gain 12 HP, but dipping into one grants you 1d12 (which averages to 6.5). The +2/+4 difference is in comparison to starting out as any other class (A Fighter starts with 10, a Rogue starts with 8)

then one of us is wrong.

you are neglecting the 2 skills you get from your starting class.
starting as rogue 1 gets you 6 skills, but starting as barb and adding rogue gets you 5 skills. 1 more skill.
starting as bard 1 gets you 5 skills+3instr, but starting as barb and adding bard gets you 5 skills+1instr. 0 more skills, 2 more instr

[ProsecutorGodot]

The Rogue normally starts with 4 skills, but only gets 1 as a dip, meaning starting as one gets you 3 more skills.
You're forgetting that every class in the game starts with at least 2 skill proficiencies and every character gets an additional 2 from their background. The minimum amount of skill proficiencies a level 1 character can have is 4. A Rogue (ignoring any potential racial bonuses) starts with 6. 4 from their class and 2 from the background.

Multiclassing into Rogue nets you a skill proficiency from the Rogues list of skills, meaning that a level 2 character with 1 level in Rogue has 5 skill proficiencies, only 1 less than a character level 1 Rogue.

Starting Rogue gets you 1 extra skill proficiency compared to multiclassing into Rogue.

[diplomancer]

So was mine.

The Rogue normally starts with 4 skills, but only gets 1 as a dip, meaning starting as one gets you 3 more skills.
The Bard normally starts with 3 skills and 3 instruments, but only gets 1 of each as a dip, so you get 2 more of each by starting as a Bard.
Starting as a Barbarian means you gain 12 HP, but dipping into one grants you 1d12 (which averages to 6.5). The +2/+4 difference is in comparison to starting out as any other class (A Fighter starts with 10, a Rogue starts with 8)

But most classes start with 2 skills, so starting as a rrogue instead of dipping it only gives you 1 more skill, not 3 (the classes who start with 3 skills give you one extra skill when you multiclass, so starting with rogue also nets you one extra skill).

Ninja'ed.

[Man_Over_Game]

then one of us is wrong.

you are neglecting the 2 skills you get from your starting class.
starting as rogue 1 gets you 6 skills, but starting as barb and adding rogue gets you 5 skills. 1 more skill.
starting as bard 1 gets you 5 skills+3instr, but starting as barb and adding bard gets you 5 skills+1instr. 0 more skills, 2 more instr


You're forgetting that every class in the game starts with at least 2 skill proficiencies and every character gets an additional 2 from their background. The minimum amount of skill proficiencies a level 1 character can have is 4. A Rogue (ignoring any potential racial bonuses) starts with 6. 4 from their class and 2 from the background.

Multiclassing into Rogue nets you a skill proficiency from the Rogues list of skills, meaning that a level 2 character with 1 level in Rogue has 5 skill proficiencies, only 1 less than a character level 1 Rogue.

Starting Rogue gets you 1 extra skill proficiency compared to multiclassing into Rogue.


But most classes start with 2 skills, so starting as a rrogue instead of dipping it only gives you 1 more skill, not 3 (the classes who start with 3 skills give you one extra skill when you multiclass, so starting with rogue also nets you one extra skill).

Ninja'ed.

I appreciate the congo lineup of people to tell me I'm wrong. I'll just...uh...do something more meaningful, I guess?

Like nothing. Nothing sounds productive.

[djreynolds]

Fighter is pretty good.
Archery style is +2 to hit.
30ft- 150ft kill zone with a longbow
2nd wind

Rogue is nice.
Expertise stealth and perception
Extra 1d6 sneak attack damage
30ft-80ft kill zone with short bow/light crossbow.

Both are very good

[NaughtyTiger]

I appreciate the congo lineup of people to tell me I'm wrong. I'll just...uh...do something more meaningful, I guess?

Like nothing. Nothing sounds productive.

ha! it is absolutely horrible when all of us keyboard monkey type furiously all at once. I didn't even notice the pile up. Sorry MOG.