[3.5] Dragons and perfect flight maneuverability

[TallerSpine]

Suppose a character takes a dragon cohort, and decides that the cohort took Improved Flight (from Complete Adventurer) and wears a Pectoral of Maneuverability (or the greater version) to bring its maneuverability up to perfect. Suppose the party was investigating a dungeon, and this dragon was flapping its wings like a hummingbird to keep aloft. What would happen to the party? I'm imagining it creating a frickin wind storm inside the dungeon! Would they go deaf from how loud the rapid wing movement would have to be?

[Buufreak]

Roughly exactly that. I am without any books ATM, but there are rules on hovering effects based on size and height.

[TallerSpine]

Roughly exactly that. I am without any books ATM, but there are rules on hovering effects based on size and height.

That's the hover feat. While interesting, I'm thinking this is even beyond that. With the hover feat, I can already imagine those wings going crazy to keep the dragon aloft. But, if the dragon has perfect maneuverability, that's a whole different beast. The dragon becomes the DnD equivalent of a harrier jet. It can move in three dimensions as easily as a normal creature can move in two. That means from complete rest, it can shoot up 800 feat in the air in six seconds (a full run straight up is possible when you have perfect maneuverability). That is about 2.4g of force (2.4 times the force of gravity) required to move that quickly. That is zero to 60 in about 2 seconds!

Is it possible for the dragon to be quiet? The dragon has very little ability to move silently. They figured, if it was flying, that's got to be quieter. And then we had a discussion about how the dragon is a harrier jet, and therefore anything but quiet, lol.

[MisterKaws]

I always interpreted the flight modifiers as just adding more magic to their flight. That's especially true if you're using a magic item to increase maneuverability.

Some Dragon Magazine dragons, especially, are clearly described as having magical aid to their flight. The ones I remember right now are the Arcane Dragons(Tome+Hex) which have Graceful Flight(Ex), and the Yellow Dragon, which is completely wingless, yet has probably top 3 flight capacity among all dragons... plus burrow and swim as well.

[TallerSpine]

Any windstorm will be for fluff only, no crunch. So no damage. You as a DM can add circumstance penalties to their listen check and whatnot but that's as far as it goes. No damage or anything.

If the Dragon passes a move silently check then his hummingbird windstorm is incredibly quiet. How? Because that dragon is that epic-ly awesome just like how you have no idea how a colossal creature can hide in plain sight with the right feat/PrCs/skills.

Perhaps. But, in the DMG (page 30), it discusses circumstance modifiers. It may make sense that the harrier jet dragon could have a severely hampered ability to move silently. It might also make sense that the colossal creature might have a severely hampered ability to hide in plain sight. If you can describe the circumstance modifiers to the DC, then I see no reason why they shouldn't apply.


I always interpreted the flight modifiers as just adding more magic to their flight. That's especially true if you're using a magic item to increase maneuverability.

Some Dragon Magazine dragons, especially, are clearly described as having magical aid to their flight. The ones I remember right now are the Arcane Dragons(Tome+Hex) which have Graceful Flight(Ex), and the Yellow Dragon, which is completely wingless, yet has probably top 3 flight capacity among all dragons... plus burrow and swim as well.

That's not a bad interpretation. But, let's take this to the extreme. In the draconomicon, there is a feat (which is a non-magical extraordinary ability) that can be taken multiple times. Each time, it improves flight maneuverability by one step. Let's pretend they did that, instead.

[magic9mushroom]

That's not a bad interpretation. But, let's take this to the extreme. In the draconomicon, there is a feat (which is a non-magical extraordinary ability) that can be taken multiple times. Each time, it improves flight maneuverability by one step. Let's pretend they did that, instead.

You cannot get to Perfect with Improved Manoeuvrability. You'd need to take it enough times to get to Good and then take Improved Flight.

Now, as for the Harrier analogy - it wouldn't be quite that loud. A dragon has to get to Huge before it gets as heavy as a Harrier (while Dragon Cohort usually won't get you anything over Large), and flapping wings are generally much quieter for a given amount of power than turbine engines (which are the main source of noise in a jet aircraft, not the actual deflection of air, unless it's going transonic/supersonic*).

Also, dragons need more room than their size category indicates in order to fly. Draconomicon gives 18 ft. as the minimum wingspan a Large dragon can use effectively; if the corridors are narrower than that, the dragon isn't flying with its wings.

*The transonic threshold is generally around Mach 0.8. In D&D terms, that's around 5400 ft per round; even a full-grown epic dragon with the Run feat diving only hits 3500, or about Mach 0.5.

[TallerSpine]

You cannot get to Perfect with Improved Manoeuvrability. You'd need to take it enough times to get to Good and then take Improved Flight.

Good catch!


Now, as for the Harrier analogy - it wouldn't be quite that loud. A dragon has to get to Huge before it gets as heavy as a Harrier (while Dragon Cohort usually won't get you anything over Large), and flapping wings are generally much quieter for a given amount of power than turbine engines (which are the main source of noise in a jet aircraft, not the actual deflection of air, unless it's going transonic/supersonic*).

Also, dragons need more room than their size category indicates in order to fly. Draconomicon gives 18 ft. as the minimum wingspan a Large dragon can use effectively; if the corridors are narrower than that, the dragon isn't flying with its wings.

*The transonic threshold is generally around Mach 0.8. In D&D terms, that's around 5400 ft per round; even a full-grown epic dragon with the Run feat diving only hits 3500, or about Mach 0.5.

This dungeon was the former lair of a dragon who died long ago, but taken over by the BBEG. I figured there would be enough room for wings throughout the bulk of the dungeon. What would you say for move silently DCs? +20 circumstance modifier?

[martixy]

Where's Chuck E Cheese when you need him?

In any case, dragons can reach some crazy speeds, even non-epic ones:

Fly down: x2
Run: x5



Base, ft
200
250
300
350
Haste +30


Run+Dive, ft.
2000
2500
3000
3500
+300


ft/s
333.3333333
416.6666667
500
583.3333333
+50


m/s
101.6
127
152.4
177.8
+15.24


km/h
365.76
457.2
548.64
640.08
+54.864


Not bad at all.

Wouldn't be that hard to go supersonic I suppose.

[Missing]

Where's Chuck E Cheese when you need him?

In any case, dragons can reach some crazy speeds, even non-epic ones:

Fly down: x2
Run: x5



Base, ft
200
250
300
350
Haste +30


Run+Dive, ft.
2000
2500
3000
3500
+300


ft/s
333.3333333
416.6666667
500
583.3333333
+50


m/s
101.6
127
152.4
177.8
+15.24


km/h
365.76
457.2
548.64
640.08
+54.864


Not bad at all.

Wouldn't be that hard to go supersonic I suppose.

IIRC thats not how stacking multipliers work in 3.x they are additive not multiplicative. i.e. the X2 + X5 isnt X10 but only X7. Not sure what that does for your calculations. I'm too lazy to work it out :tongue:

[martixy]

IIRC thats not how stacking multipliers work in 3.x they are additive not multiplicative. i.e. the X2 + X5 isnt X10 but only X7. Not sure what that does for your calculations. I'm too lazy to work it out :tongue:

You do not recall correctly.
Physical values stack multiplicatively, game values (such as dice) stack additively.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

[Missing]

You do not recall correctly.
Physical values stack multiplicatively, game values (such as dice) stack additively.


Fair enough, been a really long time since I've played 3.x. Guess dragons can go supersonic then :smalleek:

What happens to a dragon the does go supersonic especially the top speed ones. What does a nearly 700km/h speed DO to a dragon?

[Thedez]

Fair enough, been a really long time since I've played 3.x. Guess dragons can go supersonic then :smalleek:

What happens to a dragon the does go supersonic especially the top speed ones. What does a nearly 700km/h speed DO to a dragon?

Game-wise, it would actually depend on your DM. Either A) your DM will rule that, since the game has never described damage attributed due to having too fast a move-speed, it would effectively do nothing, or B) your DM will rule that, since there are no rules describing friction, it can be assumed to work as physics models would predict, as is the default for anything D&D doesn't explicitly describe.

[magic9mushroom]

Fair enough, been a really long time since I've played 3.x. Guess dragons can go supersonic then :smalleek:

What happens to a dragon the does go supersonic especially the top speed ones. What does a nearly 700km/h speed DO to a dragon?

700 km/h is nowhere near supersonic (speed of sound is over 1200 km/h). I already did the calculation above (without the Haste, which isn't enough to make much of a difference). You'd need some serious boosters over and above the Run feat and Haste.


The short answer for "what happens if you go supersonic" is "you physically can't, at least with beating wings". Beating wings (and any propulsion system except a rocket) stop providing thrust once you're going forward faster than you can push air backward, which is the main reason propellers aren't used on the large, fast airliners. That's going to become a serious issue around mach 0.5, since beyond that you'll have to beat your wings supersonically fast (in reality, of course, nothing living has enough power to beat its wings anywhere near that fast anyway). Then, you have the other problem: as you approach the speed of sound, drag forces increase drastically (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Qualitive_variation_of_cd_with_mach_number.png) (it's actually worse than that graph, because that's the drag coefficient which is then multiplied by the velocity squared). This is the reason most military aircraft are only episodically supersonic (the fuel requirements are horrifying), and the reason engine technology had to improve before the "sound barrier" could be broken. You could achieve those speeds by falling, but only in the high upper atmosphere where the air's thinner (and where a dragon would suffocate, not to mention their wings failing to work because there's nothing to push on); near the surface, drag will beat gravity and impose a terminal velocity long before you reach supersonic speeds.

[Falontani]

snip

So the Dragon casts fly to fly up magically, and uses a magic item to breathe. Then does a full dive/fall and uses whatever it can to boost its speed. Because it was bored one afternoon and decided to see what would happen.

[Saintheart]

Footnote: there is a dragon feat that's specifically directed to generating windstorms on targets, in the Draconomicon - p. 75.

[rel]

A dragon casually ignores real world physics as it flies.
This is the Secret of Draconic Flight. It is magic in the same way that a world consisting of a disc sitting on the back of a giant turtle is magic; Antimagic is not relevant but physics need not apply.

Point being, whatever mechanism the dragon uses to ignore its own prodigious mass and the limited strength of its muscles while it soars like an eagle also handles any issues of turbulence the dragon might have flying in the dungeon.

[Saintheart]

I was just waiting for the Guards! Guards! reference.

[Missing]

700 km/h is nowhere near supersonic (speed of sound is over 1200 km/h). I already did the calculation above (without the Haste, which isn't enough to make much of a difference). You'd need some serious boosters over and above the Run feat and Haste.


Whoops that's what I get for posting when super tired :smalltongue:
Thought I'd checked it and found speed of sound to b ~350km/h but its ~343m/s (VERY different)

Side note though, the Cheetahs Speed feat lets you move at 10x your normal speed 1/hr as part of a charge. This combined with haste should net us a fly speed of ~1300km/h (admittedly for only a single round and only by flying down). So all you need is a dragon with a base Fly speed of 350ft, Hasted and with the wild shape ability and a specific feat. If you really wanted to you could pick up Improved Speed from Draconomnicon for an addition +20ft base fly speed.

[TallerSpine]

You cannot get to Perfect with Improved Manoeuvrability. You'd need to take it enough times to get to Good and then take Improved Flight.

Now, as for the Harrier analogy - it wouldn't be quite that loud. A dragon has to get to Huge before it gets as heavy as a Harrier (while Dragon Cohort usually won't get you anything over Large), and flapping wings are generally much quieter for a given amount of power than turbine engines (which are the main source of noise in a jet aircraft, not the actual deflection of air, unless it's going transonic/supersonic*).

Also, dragons need more room than their size category indicates in order to fly. Draconomicon gives 18 ft. as the minimum wingspan a Large dragon can use effectively; if the corridors are narrower than that, the dragon isn't flying with its wings.

*The transonic threshold is generally around Mach 0.8. In D&D terms, that's around 5400 ft per round; even a full-grown epic dragon with the Run feat diving only hits 3500, or about Mach 0.5.

So, hummingbirds need to flap their wings somewhere between 12 and 90 times per second. A hummingbird weighs 0.11 ounces on average. With a little calculation, one could probably estimate the amount of surface area their wings cover, then somehow extrapolate for a large dragon. Part of what makes a hummingbird special is its maneuverability. You mention that there does not exist any flapping animal that can achieve the amount of lift that a jet engine can. But, I'm not talking about just speed. I'm talking about maneuverability. Hummingbirds are the only animal I've seen with near perfect maneuverability. If we assume that a dragon (with 18 foot wing span) is flapping 12 to 90 times per second (different pictures show different wing positions for dragon flapping, but I am going to use some rough estimates), the tips of its wings might pass supersonic speeds.

9 foot radius circle, wings go from 40 degree incline to 15 degree decline. That's about one radian of the circumference per wing. So, 18 feet of movement per wing tip, 12 to 90 times per second. That's like 230km/hr to 1778 km/hr for its wing tips. And that's assuming that is even fast enough for perfect maneuverability.

[Anthrowhale]

The short answer for "what happens if you go supersonic" is "you physically can't, at least with beating wings".

I don't think this is quite right? Wings using supersonic beats seem to have no inherent limit on the speed with which they can push air particles so Newton's equal and opposite reaction says that supersonic wings could power supersonic flight.

In a hovering situation supersonic wing beats should leave a vacuum behind them. The air would need to refill through normal pressure mechanisms for next beat to be as powerful.

[TallerSpine]

So, hummingbirds need to flap their wings somewhere between 12 and 90 times per second. A hummingbird weighs 0.11 ounces on average. With a little calculation, one could probably estimate the amount of surface area their wings cover, then somehow extrapolate for a large dragon. Part of what makes a hummingbird special is its maneuverability. You mention that there does not exist any flapping animal that can achieve the amount of lift that a jet engine can. But, I'm not talking about just speed. I'm talking about maneuverability. Hummingbirds are the only animal I've seen with near perfect maneuverability. If we assume that a dragon (with 18 foot wing span) is flapping 12 to 90 times per second (different pictures show different wing positions for dragon flapping, but I am going to use some rough estimates), the tips of its wings might pass supersonic speeds.

9 foot radius circle, wings go from 40 degree incline to 15 degree decline. That's about one radian of the circumference per wing. So, 18 feet of movement per wing tip, 12 to 90 times per second. That's like 230km/hr to 1778 km/hr for its wing tips. And that's assuming that is even fast enough for perfect maneuverability.

I read up a bit more on this. Turns out bat wings are closer to dragon wings than hummingbird wings (and bat wings are far more efficient), so maybe my calculation is horrendously off. And maybe the dragon can use its elemental nature to pull air closer to itself, as a user above mentioned, granting it increased lift and maneuverability. Maybe an earth dragon can create a repelling force with earth, and a water dragon can pull water towards its wings to provide additional lift. Air dragons can move air from above the wing to below (or any other side of the wing they desire). Fire dragons can control the temperature of the air surrounding their bodies. All of these factors could (in theory) significantly affect the amount of power required to keep aloft, increase maneuverability, etc.

Maybe I need to rethink this. Maybe it does not create that much noise...

[ericgrau]

Suppose a character takes a dragon cohort, and decides that the cohort took Improved Flight (from Complete Adventurer) and wears a Pectoral of Maneuverability (or the greater version) to bring its maneuverability up to perfect. Suppose the party was investigating a dungeon, and this dragon was flapping its wings like a hummingbird to keep aloft. What would happen to the party? I'm imagining it creating a frickin wind storm inside the dungeon! Would they go deaf from how loud the rapid wing movement would have to be?

Rules for hovering and wind effects are here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#hover

It doesn't need to flap like a hummingbird to hover, and I believe it can't. Just as the wind effects might be huge the flight speed would be ridiculous too, beyond what it can actually do. More likely it slowly flaps in a precise and agile manner.

[TallerSpine]

Rules for hovering and wind effects are here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#hover

It doesn't need to flap like a hummingbird to hover, and I believe it can't. Just as the wind effects might be huge the flight speed would be ridiculous too, beyond what it can actually do. More likely it slowly flaps in a precise and agile manner.

I am not talking about hovering. The dragon took Improved Maneuverability and Improved Flight enough times to get its maneuverability to perfect. That is wayyy beyond hovering. Say a dragon has 350 ft move speed and perfect maneuverability. It can go 50 feet forward, stop on a dime, fly straight up 100 feet, stop on a dime, dive back down 100 feet, stop on a dime, fly back up 100 feet all as one move action. It is not just flying in place. My analogy above that it works like a harrier jet is not even a good analogy. A harrier jet could not accomplish that feat of maneuverability.

I think I'm sticking to the dragon's elemental nature changing the air dynamics around their bodies, so it requires far less energy to generate lift.

[martixy]

There's a WHOLE LOTTA killing catgirls here. And BADLY too, mostly on part of TallerSpine and Anthrowhale (meaning your physics are bad and you should feel bad).
So stop trying to kill all the catgirls, please.

[TallerSpine]

There's a WHOLE LOTTA killing catgirls here. And BADLY too, mostly on part of TallerSpine and Anthrowhale (meaning your physics are bad and you should feel bad).
So stop trying to kill all the catgirls, please.

Seems someone got beat pretty hard with the intolerance stick. I explained the purpose of my post. I wanted to determine a move silently penalty appropriate for a dragon's flight with perfect maneuverability. It would make noise. It cannot be done quietly. One can use simple logic in DnD. It is literally in the DMG.

I made fun of the issue a little with some mild killing of catgirls, but that is not a reason for you to try to shame me or anyone else commenting on this thread. Cyberbullying is never ok.

[Crichton]

I dunno, but if the dragon was in my cohort, I'd just give the dragon a magic item of at-will Silence. Noise no longer is an issue for his flight, regardless of speed. Problem solved.

[TallerSpine]

I dunno, but if the dragon was in my cohort, I'd just give the dragon a magic item of at-will Silence. Noise no longer is an issue for his flight, regardless of speed. Problem solved.

Agreed, that would do it!

[ericgrau]

I am not talking about hovering. The dragon took Improved Maneuverability and Improved Flight enough times to get its maneuverability to perfect. That is wayyy beyond hovering. Say a dragon has 350 ft move speed and perfect maneuverability. It can go 50 feet forward, stop on a dime, fly straight up 100 feet, stop on a dime, dive back down 100 feet, stop on a dime, fly back up 100 feet all as one move action. It is not just flying in place. My analogy above that it works like a harrier jet is not even a good analogy. A harrier jet could not accomplish that feat of maneuverability.

I think I'm sticking to the dragon's elemental nature changing the air dynamics around their bodies, so it requires far less energy to generate lift.
It's a good starting point though. Better than assuming it's a wind storm out of the blue.

Or as another poster pointed out, depending on the type of magic involved he may no longer need to flap at all.

[TallerSpine]

It's a good starting point though. Better than assuming it's a wind storm out of the blue.

Or as another poster pointed out, depending on the type of magic involved he may no longer need to flap at all.

Dragons definitely need to flap, lol. I am not giving them any magical flight.

[martixy]

Seems someone got beat pretty hard with the intolerance stick. I explained the purpose of my post. I wanted to determine a move silently penalty appropriate for a dragon's flight with perfect maneuverability. It would make noise. It cannot be done quietly. One can use simple logic in DnD. It is literally in the DMG.

I made fun of the issue a little with some mild killing of catgirls, but that is not a reason for you to try to shame me or anyone else commenting on this thread. Cyberbullying is never ok.

I wasn't talking about the thread in general, just the last few preceding posts.
Also, have you not seen Futurama? In which case, totally shame on you. :smallbiggrin:

Let me put it in straight text: The physics you guys were discussing in the last few posts are wrong. So I merely suggest you guys stop trying to involve physics altogether.

For example in my game dragon wings work by pushing against other planes, e.g. shadow stuff from the shadow plane, or astral stuff. It allows them to circumvent traditional limitations of winged flight and even fly in space.

[TallerSpine]

I wasn't talking about the thread in general, just the last few preceding posts.
Also, have you not seen Futurama? In which case, totally shame on you. :smallbiggrin:

Let me put it in straight text: The physics you guys were discussing in the last few posts are wrong. So I merely suggest you guys stop trying to involve physics altogether.

For example in my game dragon wings work by pushing against other planes, e.g. shadow stuff from the shadow plane, or astral stuff. It allows them to circumvent traditional limitations of winged flight and even fly in space.

I think you may have confused a discussion of physics with a discussion of the actual DnD rules. When I was giving an example of what was possible with a 350 fly speed and perfect maneuverability, that was not a discussion of physics. It was an example of just how maneuverable a character with perfect maneuverability really is. That much maneuverability for a creature that large is crazy!

For the physics, it is high school level physics. It is understood that it is not 100% accurate, as it assumes idyllic conditions, but the general theories still hold and come pretty close (I use pretty close loosely).

[martixy]

It is understood that it is not 100% accurate, as it assumes idyllic conditions, but the general theories still hold and come pretty close (I use pretty close loosely).

Heavens to Betsy, that sentence is dysfunctional!

Keep in mind even high school level physics are incredibly easy to get wrong.

Which I can say with certainty because you got it wrong in your hummingbird post. You seemed to be under the impression that you just need to timesX everything. But different things scale differently. Surface area scales quadratically, volume, consequently mass scales cubically, disregarding density and material strength. Aerodynamic drag scales completely differently altogether. That's why you don't see birds the size of horses or bees, or flying insects the size of birds.

Therefore my suggestion to abandon physics entirely. Pure magic works better than broken physics.

[Segev]

With perfect maneuverability, creatures can hold still in flight. Given the abstracted nature of "stillness" on a square grid battlefield, this really means that the dragon can stay in its Space (which is probably that of a Huge or Gargantuan creature), not that it can necessarily hang motionless in the air.

At the very least, it probably is flapping lazily and managing to stay aloft. Sure, it defies physics, but dragon flight does so anyway. And it's wearing a freaking magic item (pectoral of maneuverability), so "it's magic" definitely applies.

[TallerSpine]

Heavens to Betsy, that sentence is dysfunctional!

Keep in mind even high school level physics are incredibly easy to get wrong.

Which I can say with certainty because you got it wrong in your hummingbird post. You seemed to be under the impression that you just need to timesX everything. But different things scale differently. Surface area scales quadratically, volume, consequently mass scales cubically, disregarding density and material strength. Aerodynamic drag scales completely differently altogether. That's why you don't see birds the size of horses or bees, or flying insects the size of birds.

Therefore my suggestion to abandon physics entirely. Pure magic works better than broken physics.

I understand quite well how the math works. My physics is still not bad. Even taking into account the fact that dragon wings are far more similar to bat wings than hummingbird wings. Even taking all that into account, based on the models I've read about (and there are physicists who have analyzed dragon flight), it is not possible for dragons to flap their wings fast enough to even achieve flight. So, my hummingbird example is really not that far off.

And there is no need to get exasperated.


With perfect maneuverability, creatures can hold still in flight. Given the abstracted nature of "stillness" on a square grid battlefield, this really means that the dragon can stay in its Space (which is probably that of a Huge or Gargantuan creature), not that it can necessarily hang motionless in the air.

At the very least, it probably is flapping lazily and managing to stay aloft. Sure, it defies physics, but dragon flight does so anyway. And it's wearing a freaking magic item (pectoral of maneuverability), so "it's magic" definitely applies.

In post #6 and beyond of this thread, the discussion changed to a dragon without any magic items achieving perfect maneuverability.