Bonus Spell Slots

[HamsterKun]

I read through the 5e Player’s Handbook and noticed that it doesn’t have where you earn bonus Spell Slots for a high ability score like in 3.5e. Anybody have any advice on how to ingrain that mechanic back into 5e without breaking it?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I read through the 5e Player’s Handbook and noticed that it doesn’t have where you earn bonus Spell Slots for a high ability score like in 3.5e. Anybody have any advice on how to ingrain that mechanic back into 5e without breaking it?

Don't. One of the big limitations of casters other than concentration is not having endless slots. You can't change that without breaking things.

CF coffelock, and that was only low level slots.

[Aett_Thorn]

I read through the 5e Player’s Handbook and noticed that it doesn’t have where you earn bonus Spell Slots for a high ability score like in 3.5e. Anybody have any advice on how to ingrain that mechanic back into 5e without breaking it?

Well, first off, why do you think this is needed? Or, why do you want to do this?

Knowing what the goal is might help us offer you suggestions. I, personally, wouldn’t offer more spell slots. Especially since this could cause problems with Warlocks unless you modify it for them.

[Theodoxus]

The least destructive "RAW" way to do it, is to use the spell point variant in the DMG. It's not really creating [more] slots, but allows you to break up higher level slots into smaller bits, allowing for more granular use of your spell power.

It also allows the less wise to really nova, blowing their long rest allotment of spell points by creating a few more highest level spells they can cast at the sacrifice for their low level "slots".

Risk/reward and all that...

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

If you wanted to incorporate it somehow, maybe have an Arcane Recovery type deal, where you can regain spell slots equal to your ability modifier during a short rest once a day, no higher than 5th level slots. Land Druids and Wizards would get to double dip a bit.

I'd attach it to a feat, though. You'd also have to figure out if it would work with non-full casters and how to include warlocks. Multiclassing might futz with things too.

[Rukelnikov]

If you wanted to incorporate it somehow, maybe have an Arcane Recovery type deal, where you can regain spell slots equal to your ability modifier during a short rest once a day, no higher than 5th level slots. Land Druids and Wizards would get to double dip a bit.

I'd attach it to a feat, though. You'd also have to figure out if it would work with non-full casters and how to include warlocks. Multiclassing might futz with things too.

We used a similar system to recover slots on long rest.

Since we rarely have more than a encounter a day, we changed long rest recovering all your slots into recovering "effective slots level" + spellcasting attribute

Effective slots level refers to the level which you count as for determining your total spell slots.

As for the attribute, you could choose any one of your spellcasting attributes

For instance a Sorc6/EK4 would regain 6+1+ Cha or Int

[Chronos]

Casters already can't run out of gas entirely, due to cantrips being unlimited and reasonably powerful. There's no need for an extra supply of resources.

[Samayu]

Casters already can't run out of gas entirely, due to cantrips being unlimited and reasonably powerful. There's no need for an extra supply of resources.

Agreed. There are also various class features.

[HamsterKun]

Hmph. I see...

[Kane0]

I read through the 5e Player’s Handbook and noticed that it doesn’t have where you earn bonus Spell Slots for a high ability score like in 3.5e. Anybody have any advice on how to ingrain that mechanic back into 5e without breaking it?

Tie it into another resource, like slot recovery during a short rest by burning Hit Die. 1 Hit die = 1 spell level might be a good start.

[Sigreid]

There are a small number of epic boons that effectively do that...if you get that far.

[Vorpalchicken]

If I were going to do that, at most I would allow an arcane recovery type ability that would restore the caster's ability mod in spell levels on a sort rest once per Long rest. (eg. a 16 Int wizard could add three first level spells or one third level spell -if said wizard were sufficient level to cast that level. This would be in addition to arcane recovery if available.)

It would help out low level casters a great deal but wouldn't impact as much at higher levels. To get back a 6th level slot, the caster would need to have a super -human 22 or higher casting stat.

I would probably only use this in a dungeon crawl type campaign where long rests weren't available for one reason or another.

[Millstone85]

If you just read through the PHB, you might still be confused over what spell slots are in this edition.

See, they aren't slots at all. You do not put spells into them. The PHB makes an attempt at flavoring them this way, but it is just magobabble. In truth, spell slots are a mana system. You fuel you spells with them.

This is distinct from the "list of prepared spells" some classes have. And the length of that list is in fact tied to your spellcasting ability. Clerics and druids can prepare (Wis mod + class level) spells. Wizards can prepare (Int mod + class level) spells. Paladin can prepare (Cha mod + 1/2 class level) spells.

If you already knew that, nevermind.

[HamsterKun]

If you just read through the PHB, you might still be confused over what spell slots are in this edition.

See, they aren't slots at all. You do not put spells into them. The PHB makes an attempt at flavoring them this way, but it is just magobabble. In truth, spell slots are a mana system. You fuel you spells with them.

This is distinct from the "list of prepared spells" some classes have. And the length of that list is in fact tied to your spellcasting ability. Clerics and druids can prepare (Wis mod + class level) spells. Wizards can prepare (Int mod + class level) spells. Paladin can prepare (Cha mod + 1/2 class level) spells.

If you already knew that, nevermind.

I knew that,and that’s why I love 5e. There’s something about preparing your spells in advance and have them instantly forgotten once you cast them that doesn’t sit well with me. I suppose that’s what the Spell Point system is for then...

[Morollan]

I knew that,and that’s why I love 5e. There’s something about preparing your spells in advance and have them instantly forgotten once you cast them that doesn’t sit well with me. I suppose that’s what the Spell Point system is for then...

You don't forget your prepared spells once you cast them. If you have Bless, Cure Wounds and Command prepared, for example, and you have 4 1st level spell slots, you could cast Cure Wounds 4 times, or Bless and Command twice each or all of them once and one of them a second time etc, etc.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You don't forget your prepared spells once you cast them. If you have Bless, Cure Wounds and Command prepared, for example, and you have 4 1st level spell slots, you could cast Cure Wounds 4 times, or Bless and Command twice each or all of them once and one of them a second time etc, etc.

He was talking about earlier editions, where that was the standard fluff for preparing spells into slots.

[Zanthy1]

He was talking about earlier editions, where that was the standard fluff for preparing spells into slots.

Yeah I dislike that. If you want to cast Cure Light Wounds twice in a day you have to prepare it twice. Makes no sense to me. Prepare your spells and use the spell slots as needed is a much better casting system.

[Sigreid]

Yeah I dislike that. If you want to cast Cure Light Wounds twice in a day you have to prepare it twice. Makes no sense to me. Prepare your spells and use the spell slots as needed is a much better casting system.

The original description was preparing your spells involved setting up an energy matrix, casting all of the spell except the last trigger that would set off the matrix and cast the spell burning the energy from your mind.

Preparing spells was basically a lot like scribing spells onto your brain.

[Zanthy1]

The original description was preparing your spells involved setting up an energy matrix, casting all of the spell except the last trigger that would set off the matrix and cast the spell burning the energy from your mind.

Preparing spells was basically a lot like scribing spells onto your brain.

Ah that at least makes some sense, though I still dislike it

[JoeJ]

The original description was preparing your spells involved setting up an energy matrix, casting all of the spell except the last trigger that would set off the matrix and cast the spell burning the energy from your mind.

Preparing spells was basically a lot like scribing spells onto your brain.

That's how spells work in the earlier stories of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which Gygax credited as the inspiration for the D&D magic system.

[Sigreid]

Ah that at least makes some sense, though I still dislike it

Might also be worth mentioning that RAW a high level wizard did not get all his spell slots back every day back then. If I remember correctly it was 1 hour per spell level to prepare a spell. Have enough spell levels and it would take days to reload.

[hymer]

Might also be worth mentioning that RAW a high level wizard did not get all his spell slots back every day back then. If I remember correctly it was 1 hour per spell level to prepare a spell. Have enough spell levels and it would take days to reload.
2nd edition it is ten minutes per spell level. In 3.5 it is an hour to memorize however many you could prepare.

[Sigreid]

2nd edition it is ten minutes per spell level. In 3.5 it is an hour to memorize however many you could prepare.

Yep, I think that's because virtually no one followed RAW. You originally got a lot of spell slots (relatively speaking) because they were probably meant to last the whole adventure.

[OverLordOcelot]

Ah that at least makes some sense, though I still dislike it

It stands out because it's extremely specific to one single setting, while the majority of D&D is pretty much 'general fantasy with a lot of Tolkien influence'. Also the game never really kept the fluff from the setting, so it comes off as 'memorized' instead of 'cast all but one final syllable', and that explanation runs into issues like 'if that's the case, why do any spells have a casting time longer than a round'. I suspect they originally went with Vancian magic (the old spell slot system) because 'these are your spells, mark them off as you cast them' is really easy to handle in a wargame/adapted from wargame context.

[Sigreid]

It stands out because it's extremely specific to one single setting, while the majority of D&D is pretty much 'general fantasy with a lot of Tolkien influence'. Also the game never really kept the fluff from the setting, so it comes off as 'memorized' instead of 'cast all but one final syllable', and that explanation runs into issues like 'if that's the case, why do any spells have a casting time longer than a round'. I suspect they originally went with Vancian magic (the old spell slot system) because 'these are your spells, mark them off as you cast them' is really easy to handle in a wargame/adapted from wargame context.

It also has benefits to balance if you allow a class to do really powerful things beyond what others can do, but only a few times.

[Chronos]

What it came down to is that you need some sort of mechanic for how spells work, and most fantasy literature doesn't go into any detail at all on the mechanics, with Vance being one of the few exceptions. Of course, by 3rd edition, they realized that they didn't have to rely on literature, and could just make up their own mechanics.

Vance also used the term "memorizing" for how spells were prepared, which carried over into the game through 2nd edition. By 3rd edition, the mechanics were the same (for wizards, clerics, and druids, at least), but they no longer called it "memorizing". You could recognize an old-timer by their use of the word.

And of course, in Vance's works, like in D&D, the high-level optimized wizards got to a point where they could basically just ignore all of the limitations, by means such as creating overpowered magic items.

[R.Shackleford]

I read through the 5e Player’s Handbook and noticed that it doesn’t have where you earn bonus Spell Slots for a high ability score like in 3.5e. Anybody have any advice on how to ingrain that mechanic back into 5e without breaking it?

Is everyone playing casters? If not, then what are you giving martial characters?

Instead of bonus spell slots, you could have 1st level spells become at-will at a certain level and then 2nd level spells become at-will later on. Still need to do something nice for the other platers tho.

[HamsterKun]

Instead of bonus spell slots, you could have 1st level spells become at-will at a certain level and then 2nd level spells become at-will later on. Still need to do something nice for the other platers tho.

If you want to go down that route, maybe it could be where (assuming full-caster progression) Lv1 spells become at-will at 13th Level and Lv2 spells become such at 18th.

[R.Shackleford]

If you want to go down that route, maybe it could be where (assuming full-caster progression) Lv1 spells become at-will at 13th Level and Lv2 spells become such at 18th.

Most people won't ever touch those levels so give some love to the barbarian, fighter, rogue, and monk and things should work out well for the most part.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah I dislike that. If you want to cast Cure Light Wounds twice in a day you have to prepare it twice. Makes no sense to me. Prepare your spells and use the spell slots as needed is a much better casting system.
Cure Wounds is a pretty bad example as clerics in 3rd can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a cure wounds spell of that level at no additional cost. It was one of those things that made clerics of that edition absolute beasts, even though you'd never use it in combat.

I don't see much of a point in adding this mechanic, but even if you followed the same mold as 3rd for this, you'd only ever be able to give 2 bonus 1st level spells, 1 bonus 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level spell slot since ability scores in 5e are capped at 20, while in earlier editions you had no cap and could reasonably expect to reach 30+ in your prime attribute by level 20.

And then there's the question; do you want more spells prepared, spells known or spell slots to be tied to this mechanic? And then you have to figure out how it affects the bard, sorcerer differently from the cleric, druid, wizard and the warlock especially.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ring of Spell storing and Pearl of Power are some methods.

If you're intent on this, I'd recommend just using spell points as previously suggested. If you don't want to use those, keep these few design guidelines in mind. We can infer with a reasonable amount of certainty that WOTC had things like this in mind while creating 5e:
-Magic items that replicate specific1st and 2nd level spells on a charge based item typically do not require attunement. Higher level spellcasting items not only almost always require attunement but are pretty rare. This means that 1 or 2 extra 1st and 2nd level spell slots are reasonably low impact.
-The highest level spell slot that you can create with magic items, spell points* or even sorcery points is 5th level. It's worth noting that Warlocks also have no slots higher than this level, we can assume this is because of short rest recharging.
-Non spellcasters (and even casters to an extent) are very rarely even able to use magic items that cast spells higher than 5th level. The items that allow them to are either very rare or unsafe to use regularly.
*Spell points do allow you to make 6th level and higher slots but only once per level per long rest.

With all that in mind, just consider giving the party a Pearl of Power. Even a once daily 3rd or lower level extra spell slot will skew balance in favor of the players.

[WeaselGuy]

That's how spells work in the earlier stories of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which Gygax credited as the inspiration for the D&D magic system.

Huh. I'd always wondered where the term "Vancian Magic" came from. Now I know.
And knowing is half the battle. G.I. Joe!

[OverLordOcelot]

It also has benefits to balance if you allow a class to do really powerful things beyond what others can do, but only a few times.

That's not specific to a Vancian magic setup though - the current 'spell slot' system or most spell point systems do the same thing without the 'memorize each spell into a spell slot in advance' mechanic that distinguishes old D&D spellcasting.

[Alucard89]

Could someone explain how Variant Spell Points rule works? I read about it in DMG, but I don't really think I see where limitations are.

So level 10 Wizard has 50+5 spell points and he can use them all to just cast 4th level spells? What about level 9 spells or 8th on level 20 when he has like 100+ points?

[Mith]

Could someone explain how Variant Spell Points rule works? I read about it in DMG, but I don't really think I see where limitations are.

So level 10 Wizard has 50+5 spell points and he can use them all to just cast 4th level spells? What about level 9 spells or 8th on level 20 when he has like 100+ points?

For spell levels 6-9, they can only cast 1/day (1 of each spell level). What is gained is flexibility in levels 1-5.

[Rukelnikov]

Could someone explain how Variant Spell Points rule works? I read about it in DMG, but I don't really think I see where limitations are.

So level 10 Wizard has 50+5 spell points and he can use them all to just cast 4th level spells? What about level 9 spells or 8th on level 20 when he has like 100+ points?

It's somewhat like if a sorcerer didn't have a Sorcery points cap, and the first thing he did in the morning was turn all his slots into sorcery points.

[Sigreid]

That's not specific to a Vancian magic setup though - the current 'spell slot' system or most spell point systems do the same thing without the 'memorize each spell into a spell slot in advance' mechanic that distinguishes old D&D spellcasting.

For that statement I was actually referring to how long it takes the spellcaster to regain their power. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Alucard89]

For spell levels 6-9, they can only cast 1/day (1 of each spell level). What is gained is flexibility in levels 1-5.

Thank you.

It seems like super strong feature for Paladins and Sorcadins as then they can use all points for 4th level slots for smites.

But at the same time Point system seems to screw Sorcerers as their Font of Magic becomes useless.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Thank you.

It seems like super strong feature for Paladins and Sorcadins as then they can use all points for 4th level slots for smites.

But at the same time Point system seems to screw Sorcerers as their Font of Magic becomes useless.
I can tell you from experience that our party sorcerer isn't suffering in the slightest with spell points.

In fact, he's so reckless with his casting thanks to having so many high-level slots that he's often casting synaptic static on only 2 targets.

[Alucard89]

I can tell you from experience that our party sorcerer isn't suffering in the slightest with spell points.

In fact, he's so reckless with his casting thanks to having so many high-level slots that he's often casting synaptic static on only 2 targets.

Yeah, but so would Wizard with Spell Point system. Thing is- Spell Point rule makes Font of Magic useless as all spell slots are now perma-points so no need for mechanic to convert them to it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah, but so would Wizard with Spell Point system. Thing is- Spell Point rule makes Font of Magic useless as all spell slots are now perma-points so no need for mechanic to convert them to it.

Spell Points allow them to convert spell points into more Sorcery Points than they would have been able to using spell slots. For example, a 9th level sorcerer using spell slots can convert into a maximum of 14 36 additional Sorcery Points.

A 9th level sorcerer using spell points can convert into a maximum of 45 additional sorcery points. (converting eight 5th level spells at 7 spell points each)

It gives them way more Sorcery Points. So many in fact that they'll almost never have to worry about being unable to apply a metamagic to any spell they choose to cast. Pairs amazingly with Twin Spell.

[Rukelnikov]

Spell Points allow them to convert spell points into more Sorcery Points than they would have been able to using spell slots. For example, a 9th level sorcerer using spell slots can convert into a maximum of 14 additional Sorcery Points.

A 9th level sorcerer using spell points can convert into a maximum of 45 additional sorcery points. (converting eight 5th level spells at 7 spell points each)

It gives them way more Sorcery Points. So many in fact that they'll almost never have to worry about being unable to apply a metamagic to any spell they choose to cast. Pairs amazingly with Twin Spell.

Not sure where that 14 came from, 9th level sorcerer can convert: 4*1 + 3*2 + 3*3 + 3*4 + 1*5 = 4 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 5 = 36

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not sure where that 14 came from, 9th level sorcerer can convert: 4*1 + 3*2 + 3*3 + 3*4 + 1*5 = 4 + 6 + 9 + 12 + 5 = 36

Thanks for correcting my stupid maths, I just ignored the slot level and added the number of slots.

My point does still stand though, that you gain more sorcery points through using spell points and can use a greater number of them on higher level spells.

[Yunru]

It's interesting to look at the loss ratios when converting spell points into spell slots into sorcerer points.
1st level: 50% loss
2nd level: 33% loss
3rd level: 40% loss
4th level: 33% loss
5th level: 29% loss

[sophontteks]

The inefficiency is a one way street. Converting sorcery points into spell slots is inefficient, while converting spell slots into metamagic is efficient.

Take a look at the Shadow sorcerer, who can cast an enhanced darkness spell for 2 metamagic. That is the same cost as converting a level 2 spell in the first place. It's 100% efficient. Hound of Ill Omen would easily qualify as a good third level spell as well, and it too has a 100% efficient conversion rate. A final example is twinned spell, which costs 1 point per spell level to double cast a spell. Again, there is 0 loss from this conversion.

A sorcerer who gobbles up some of his lower level slots to feed metamagic to his big-impact spells is getting a really good bargain.
A sorcerer who tries converting meta-magic into another big-impact spell is taking a huge loss.

With the right metamagics the greater impact of the spell should compensate for the loss of spell slots, and a sorcerer shouldn't feel as if they were in any way cut short of slots. They just made a bigger impact in a shorter span.

[HamsterKun]

And then there's the question; do you want more spells prepared, spells known or spell slots to be tied to this mechanic? And then you have to figure out how it affects the bard, sorcerer differently from the cleric, druid, wizard and the warlock especially.

Spell Slots.
Having more spells prepared or known from a prime ability score could run into balance problems ascerning optimization.

[Alucard89]

Had a pleasure today to test Spell Points on level 6 Paladin and I have to say it's great optional rule especially for them. Having 14 points I was able to generate one level 1 slot (it was Bless this time) and 4 x 2th level slots for 3d8 smites, as opposed to having only 2 x 2nd level slots.

A pure level 20 Paladin will have 64 points, which allows him to generate up to 10 x 4th level slots for Smites as opposed to 5 x 5d8 slots (3/2) they normally would have on level 20.

It's especially strong on Sorcadins, as you can forget mostly unused 1st and 2nd level slots and generate additional 4th level slots for smites, giving them even more smites than normal Sorcadin do. Or generating more Sorcery Points for metamagic.

6/14 Sorcadin would have 107 Spell Points, allowing him to generate up to 17 x 4th level smites if needed or generate 50 Sorcery Points (using 1st level slots 100/2 = 50 slots, each 1st level slot is 1 Sorcery Point)

Party Wizard and Druid also had a lot of fun being more flexible with spells.

Glad I discovered this rule in this thread, will use it from now. Much better than standard slot system imo.

[Mitsu]

Had a pleasure today to test Spell Points on level 6 Paladin and I have to say it's great optional rule especially for them. Having 14 points I was able to generate one level 1 slot (it was Bless this time) and 4 x 2th level slots for 3d8 smites, as opposed to having only 2 x 2nd level slots.

A pure level 20 Paladin will have 64 points, which allows him to generate up to 10 x 4th level slots for Smites as opposed to 5 x 5d8 slots (3/2) they normally would have on level 20.

It's especially strong on Sorcadins, as you can forget mostly unused 1st and 2nd level slots and generate additional 4th level slots for smites, giving them even more smites than normal Sorcadin do. Or generating more Sorcery Points for metamagic.

6/14 Sorcadin would have 107 Spell Points, allowing him to generate up to 17 x 4th level smites if needed or generate 50 Sorcery Points (using 1st level slots 100/2 = 50 slots, each 1st level slot is 1 Sorcery Point)

Party Wizard and Druid also had a lot of fun being more flexible with spells.

Glad I discovered this rule in this thread, will use it from now. Much better than standard slot system imo.

That optional rule sounds actually like one big buff to Paladins and Sorcadins.

And really they don't need any more power...

[Tanarii]

That's how spells work in the earlier stories of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which Gygax credited as the inspiration for the D&D magic system.
The justification may have come from dying earth, but the inspiration was a pure war gaming mechanic: powerful abilities, especially artillery strikes, were limited use per scenario. Wizard, and to a lesser degree cleric, hero characters were effectively artillery.

[Particle_Man]

Divination wizards can get spell slots back (both the archetype and the class do this, actually).