If vampires are "your worst day personified," what are characters' vampires like?

[CriticalFailure]

Based on (1007)http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html, if vampires are who the character's are at their worst on their worst day, what are the other characters' worst days and kind of vampires would other characters have?

Here are some of my guesses:

Roy: not really sure about this one, my best guess would be that Roy's worst day was when his brother died (interesting that Durkon's vampire brought that right up in their fight). So I guess his vampire would probably be angry, sad, immature, and completely absorbed in its daddy issues? Perhaps extending to a greater anger and resentment of authority figures and an authoritarian attitude stemming from its unwillingness to trust anyone else to be responsible?

Haley: not entirely sure what her worst day was based on growing up where she did but it could possibly be when Nale temporarily convinced Elan she was with him before she got her voice back. Either way I definitely think her vampire is definitely still pathologically untrusting of anyone ever and can't care about anything and likely lashes out at others to isolate itself and ensure it never cares about anything. Definitely an insecure loner. Possibly quite similar to Haley's Self Loathing, who appeared in the Nale lying strip?

Elan: this one is really hard since he's so innocent and its hard to guess what his worst moment would be. He's basically 0% malice 100% stupidity. The times when he has to accept bad things seem kind of rough for him, so maybe his vampire is angry about the world not living up to stories? Honestly, this one is the hardest.

V: it's got to be V during the soul splice... She even had the fangs...

Belkar: This one is hard. Assuming it's the worst day emotionally it seems like it would either be when Mr. Scruffy got hurt or when Durkon sacrificed his life for him. So, angry vampire that doesn't understand why they hurt for another being trying to stab out the emotions? Or if it means the worst behavior, angry vampire trying to stab everything for not giving it what it wants?

Miko: Miko's vampire has got to be basically Miko when executing Shojo and attacking Hinjo, right?

O-Chul: O-Chul is actually probably as difficult as Elan. Based on Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, maybe it's the person his parents were raising him to be or something??? idk

Xykon: the most likely thing I can think of is losing his coffee tasting abilities, though maybe losing his casting ability to Lirian's virus could be a candidate? I think his behavior has been pretty consistent with what he did right after, so I guess Xykon's vampire would probably just be the same.

Redcloak: there are two candidates for his worst day his character is significantly shaped around them, so my guess would be that Redcloak's vampire would just be a more emotionally unstable version of Redcloak. Can you imagine the weird angsty circularly self-loathing conversations those two would have in his head?

Bonus: if there was a reverse vampire that was the best version of a character on their best day, what would that look like for different characters?

[Aveline]

...I think I'm Roy's vampire.

[CriticalFailure]

I'm sorry to hear that :( you seem too nice for an evil undead

[Vulsutyr]

I don’t know about Elan’s vampire, but I bet his reverse vampire was the day he swung back into the main story. He and Haley declared they were in love, he proved to the order that he could be useful in a fight, and he defeated his big meanie brother.

[CriticalFailure]

That's a good point, that was a great Elan moment and I forgot that's when he got Dashing Swordsman!

[woweedd]

Elan’s worst day...In my opinion, there’s only one answer: Breaking out of the illusion, the realization that his family is screwed-up, broken, and isn’t going to get fixed. Thus, his vampire would probably be based around fixing his family...by any means. You just weren’t trying hard enough. I’ll repair them...Even if I hurt them to do it. It’ll take some tough love, but it’s all worth it to save my family. Basically, vampire Elan would with “fixing” his family, and would be willing to hurt anyone, including them, if he thought it’d help.

[Bad Wolf]

Xykon would probably be like that Vampire priestess, he'd just be down with the mindless slaughter and whatnot. Either that or he's even more of a problem because he cant stand not being in control.

[Themrys]

Now I want to know what Non-Vampire-Malack was like.

Vampire Malack claims that killing him and resurrecting his non-vampiric self would just be a very elaborate way of killing him, but if he is shaped after the hole in that person's heart, then are they really that different?

(I imagine the desire to sacrifice thousands to Nergal may be caused by being Nergal's creature. It seems to be driven more by religion than by anger. That, or Malack's tribe sacrificed sapient creatures back then, too, and he just got frustrated at how inefficient the process was.)

[Fyraltari]

Now I want to know what Non-Vampire-Malack was like.

Vampire Malack claims that killing him and resurrecting his non-vampiric self would just be a very elaborate way of killing him, but if he is shaped after the hole in that person's heart, then are they really that different?

(I imagine the desire to sacrifice thousands to Nergal may be caused by being Nergal's creature. It seems to be driven more by religion than by anger. That, or Malack's tribe sacrificed sapient creatures back then, too, and he just got frustrated at how inefficient the process was.)

It's been 200 years since Malack was vampirized, he's had ample time to develop his own personality beyond "the worst day of his host's life", he's made friends and has had children. Think how often you've heard people say they're not the same person they were 20 years ago, now add 180 years to that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Haley: not entirely sure what her worst day was based on growing up where she did
That'd probably be the day her mom was shot and killed in front of her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html)

[jidasfire]

When the vampire says it's your worst day personified, I don't think that means the day that was saddest for you. It means who you are at your worst. It is essentially all your flaws magnified. Durkon's a tough one because of course he's such a generally good dude that it took the saddest day of his life for him to get angry enough to go to such a dark place. Given this, my interpretation of the other vamps is a bit different.

Roy: At his worst, Roy is caustic and dismissive, and the worst thing he ever did was leave Elan behind. Seems to me, Roy's vampire would be arrogant, assured of his own superiority over others, and have no regard for his underlings.

Haley: Haley can be mistrustful and greedy, and once in awhile can be kinda cold-blooded. Her vampire would probably be solitary and secretive, killing anyone in her way and taking whatever she wanted to a hidden lair that no one could ever find or reach.

Elan: Elan's innocence comes with a side of carelessness and distractability. His vampire would probably treat mortals like toys, cruelly playing with them until he grew bored.

Vaarsuvius: V, well, we all know V's big flaws. Vampire V would probably devote themself to some sort of dark evolution, researching a method to attain godhood.

Belkar: Belkar's vamp would probably be little more than a savage, bestial predator. A highly effective one, mind you, willing to recklessly destroy whole towns in a single night.

[woweedd]

When the vampire says it's your worst day personified, I don't think that means the day that was saddest for you. It means who you are at your worst. It is essentially all your flaws magnified. Durkon's a tough one because of course he's such a generally good dude that it took the saddest day of his life for him to get angry enough to go to such a dark place. Given this, my interpretation of the other vamps is a bit different.

Roy: At his worst, Roy is caustic and dismissive, and the worst thing he ever did was leave Elan behind. Seems to me, Roy's vampire would be arrogant, assured of his own superiority over others, and have no regard for his underlings.

Haley: Haley can be mistrustful and greedy, and once in awhile can be kinda cold-blooded. Her vampire would probably be solitary and secretive, killing anyone in her way and taking whatever she wanted to a hidden lair that no one could ever find or reach.

Elan: Elan's innocence comes with a side of carelessness and distractability. His vampire would probably treat mortals like toys, cruelly playing with them until he grew bored.

Vaarsuvius: V, well, we all know V's big flaws. Vampire V would probably devote themself to some sort of dark evolution, researching a method to attain godhood.

Belkar: Belkar's vamp would probably be little more than a savage, bestial predator. A highly effective one, mind you, willing to recklessly destroy whole towns in a single night.
I mean, Gontor's says otherwise.

[137beth]

Xykon: the most likely thing I can think of is losing his coffee tasting abilities, though maybe losing his casting ability to Lirian's virus could be a candidate? I think his behavior has been pretty consistent with what he did right after, so I guess Xykon's vampire would probably just be the same.

Can vampires taste coffee? If so, a vampire Xykon might actually be less bad than lich Xykon.

[understatement]

Can vampires taste coffee? If so, a vampire Xykon might actually be less bad than lich Xykon.

Non-lich Xykon is actually a remarkably chill guy. If vampirization works in reverse, he'd just be a lazy, less murdeous Elan-ish person.

[137beth]

Non-lich Xykon is actually a remarkably chill guy. If vampirization works in reverse, he'd just be a lazy, less murdeous Elan-ish person.

I disagree, considering
1)He killed his family
2)He killed the wizard who wanted to train him with a relatively small amount of provocation
3)He killed the lizardfolk for having too long of a name.
Human Xykon was a little bit more chill than lich Xykon, but that's a low bar.

[understatement]

Good point. I did mean he was more on the Affably Evil side of the spectrum, as in when he was being "nice" (ex: see him talk about coffee) he was not actively being a complete A-hole, although still as evil.

He fried Xavion and the lizard-dude without almost any thought -- he was way too lazy and "local"-petty to care. What he did to the SG was your point embodied.

[Zenzis]

I bet his reverse vampire

Woah this is a super cool concept and with D&D's plethora of monsters I'm surprised I haven't seen it as a thing. (Maybe I missed it?) Maybe because good and violating free will don't go along well? But contagious positive energy spirits that take control of evil bodies and made them do good is so neat. Maybe they are hoping the soul that watches will eventually like doing good, will turn out to be the good version of Ponchula, or will eventually just fuse with the positive energy redeeming it in the afterlife?

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah when I was thinking about that I was wondering what kind of good positive energy spirit could have that effect... Maybe they'd mostly bite the evil and try to show them the error in their ways?

[D.One]

Yeah when I was thinking about that I was wondering what kind of good positive energy spirit could have that effect... Maybe they'd mostly bite the evil and try to show them the error in their ways?

Deathless ("Good undead" created by positive energy) are mostly beings that keep defending someone, somewhere or something even beyond death, be it due to extreme determination that mixes with positive energy, blessed rituals or the blessing of some god.

[The Pilgrim]

Elan's worst moment in the comic was when he not only discovered that his father was evil, but also that he used storytelling conventions to hurt people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html).

So, Vampire Elan would be, basically, Tarquin. Using his Bardic Lore to hurt people in a way that makes for a good story.

[nolongeralurker]

If you go with "worst" meaning "saddest," then Vaarsuvius' vampire wouldn't be a personification of the day V evil, it'd be a personification of either the day the dragon announced she was going to kill V's children (which is technically the same day but you know what I mean*) or the day V realized the full effects of Familicide. Personally I've always been torn about which moment was worse for V. On the one hand, you have the moment someone tells you they're about to kill your kids and trap their souls and there seems to be probably nothing you can do about it, and on the other hand, you have the moment you realize you accidentally killed countless people. So, sudden extreme fear for loved ones' lives (mixed with frustration and panic) vs. sudden extreme guilt. Tough call. Of course, V didn't completely fall apart during the first incident like V did in the second, but that was because the kids hadn't died yet so V needed/was able to focus on trying to figure out a way to save them.

For the record, I agree that "worst" probably means when you displayed your worst qualities. I just wrote the first paragraph because it's something I've wondered about for a while.

*Actually, I suppose we should discuss the implications of "worst day" vs. just "worst moment." ??

[Goblin_Priest]

Elan's worst moment in the comic was when he not only discovered that his father was evil, but also that he used storytelling conventions to hurt people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html).

So, Vampire Elan would be, basically, Tarquin. Using his Bardic Lore to hurt people in a way that makes for a good story.

I think the thing was more along the lines of "the moment you were at your worst" than "the worst moment you lived".

Because if losing a loved one was the worst day of your life, I have a hard time seeing what that makes of you as an evil vampire. You'd just sob all day?

It'd make a lot more sense to be interpreted as "the day you deviated the most from your morals".

[Fyraltari]

I think the thing was more along the lines of "the moment you were at your worst" than "the worst moment you lived".

Because if losing a loved one was the worst day of your life, I have a hard time seeing what that makes of you as an evil vampire. You'd just sob all day?

It'd make a lot more sense to be interpreted as "the day you deviated the most from your morals".

Take a look at the motto of Neutral Evil on the strip 1138 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) : Lesson Planar.

Do not underestimate the power of despair to destroy.

Edit : I think it’s the day you felt worst, because an identity centered on pain is one that leads to harm others.

[Kish]

you have the moment you realize you accidentally killed countless people.
There was nothing accidental about Vaarsuvius killing countless people. They were bragging about their massive body count a second after they'd done it.

[Fyraltari]

There was nothing accidental about Vaarsuvius killing countless people. They were bragging about their massive body count a second after they'd done it.

Ah yes, but V did accidentally kill countless people. You know, on top on the ones V killed intentionally.

[woweedd]

There was nothing accidental about Vaarsuvius killing countless people. They were bragging about their massive body count a second after they'd done it.
NO, but see, those people had scales and weren't metallic colors, so they don't count.

Ah yes, but V did accidentally kill countless people. You know, on top on the one V killed intentionally.
"Accidently killed people I didn't WANT dead", perhaps?

I think the thing was more along the lines of "the moment you were at your worst" than "the worst moment you lived".

Because if losing a loved one was the worst day of your life, I have a hard time seeing what that makes of you as an evil vampire. You'd just sob all day?

It'd make a lot more sense to be interpreted as "the day you deviated the most from your morals".
"He/she/they/this world took my family from me. I will repay the favor". Think Redcloak, you've got the right idea. Or Punisher.

[Jasdoif]

Ah yes, but V did accidentally kill countless people. You know, on top on the one V killed intentionally.Hmm...no; Vaarsuvius could have easily not cast familicide, seeing as ABD was already dead at that point.

Outside of that, I'm going to suggest "incidentally" fits better than "accidentally".

[Fyraltari]

Hmm...no; Vaarsuvius could have easily not cast familicide, seeing as ABD was already dead at that point.
Yes? I didn't question that?


Outside of that, I'm going to suggest "incidentally" fits better than "accidentally".

Sure.

[Kish]

Yes? I didn't question that?
I think you typoed "one" where you meant "ones."

[Fyraltari]

I think you typoed "one" where you meant "ones."

Ah, yes, that is what happened. Good catch.

[DaOldeWolf]

Was I called to bring up my signature? :smalltongue:

Anyway, I wonder if we should also take into consideration the "made to fit your heart" thing in this analysis.

[BeerMug Paladin]

This is an interesting thought exercise.

Roy's worst day was probably abandoning Elan. The vampire would thusly be very short-tempered and intolerant of those they find annoying. They would probably be a mercenary.

Elan's worst day might be when he was confronted with the truth of Tarquin and learned that in order to do the right thing he essentially would have to play right into a villain's evil plans. His vampire would thusly be constrained by no rules whatsoever, not even narrative rules (perhaps breaking them just for the sake of it). An anti-bard, if you will.

As someone already pointed out, we've already seen V as a vampire.

Haley's had a lot of bad days, basically her whole childhood. But she'd be a Vampire: The Masquerade brand vampire, not a d&d one. She'd slowly claw her way to the top of power in the corrupt city in which she had lived. I'd say Toreador, Crystal would be an Assamite.

Belkar hasn't really had bad days that we've seen. I doubt that the sudden realization that he must perform a good act in order to preserve his long-term evil behavior would really qualify as his worst day in any sense of the word, but it's probably the worst moment we've seen depicted in the comic (other than maybe the time he was the beneficiary of an Owl's Wisdom). Belkar's character is similar to Elan in some respects, he just simply lives moment to moment. But I doubt the vampire version of him would really be any different from Belkar Classic.

Durkon's Vampire vampire would have their worst day be the time they felt good. They would probably live in the moment and actively destroy or run from elements of their host's past life or anything cute, always afraid that someone might trick them into feeling good.

[CriticalFailure]

Haha, I guess my bad for making a post about all those things.

I guess OOTS vampires really play into themes of how people respond to adversity and deal with their negative and painful emotions and how it can drive them to evil, or not.

It’s especially interesting because it seems like we get to see a lot of characters at their lowest and in some ways the vampire was a vehicle for doing that for Durkon. I do think familicide was instigated by V being at her lowest and feeing completely terrified and desperate and helpless. It’s interesting that V has committed to trying to move on and seek to make some sort of restitution, but after she already did irreparable damage. It contrasts with Miko, who kind of tried to fix what she did but never really moved on and improved and then died; Durkon, who never succumbed to how he felt in that moment; and Redcloak, who I still maintain is completely shaped by his worst moments and wouldn’t be that different from his vampire at all.

[Goblin_Priest]

V wasn't quite fully aware of what he was doing, though, when he cast Familicide. He thought he was just killing black dragons. And as a paladin put it, killing them is wholly justified. ;)


Take a look at the motto of Neutral Evil on the strip 1138 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) : Lesson Planar.

Do not underestimate the power of despair to destroy.

Edit : I think it’s the day you felt worst, because an identity centered on pain is one that leads to harm others.

Yes, but no. The idea, as I understood it, was that the concept of "I am you on your worst day" took a specific moment, as a picture. With the implication that the undead being could not grow, or evolve. It was forever stuck on that picture of that worst day.

Pain can lead people to do bad things, but people do not necessarily turn bad on the very same day where the worst happens to them. They can, but they often don't. Despair usually takes time to erode a person's morals. Think of the Yoda steps to the Dark Side. There are a few of those between "pain" and "the dark side". So if the vampire is based on the day of pain, then he can't evolve/degenerate to "the dark side".

So to take V as an example, a vampire would probably base itself on the day that V cast familicide, much more than on the day V realized the implication of casting familicide, even if the latter was way more devastating psychologically, because the former is where V gave in to his base impulses, bloodlust, vengence, hatred, moreso than any other time we've seen. On that day, V was delighted to slaughter all of the ABD's family, if front of her, specifically to torment her.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but no. The idea, as I understood it, was that the concept of "I am you on your worst day" took a specific moment, as a picture. With the implication that the undead being could not grow, or evolve. It was forever stuck on that picture of that worst day.
Malack and Durkon* grew.


Pain can lead people to do bad things, but people do not necessarily turn bad on the very same day where the worst happens to them. They can, but they often don't. Despair usually takes time to erode a person's morals. Think of the Yoda steps to the Dark Side. There are a few of those between "pain" and "the dark side". So if the vampire is based on the day of pain, then he can't evolve/degenerate to "the dark side".
Yeah, that's because people have other things to lean on. A vampire has absolutely nothing else, just pain. Their pain does not require time to erode their morals because there are no morals to erode in the first place. They are "born" wit the intellectual abilities of an adult but are denied any kind of childhood to get emotional maturity. That first memory colors the rest they get (unless it gets dumped at once as Durkon showed) so they understanding of the world is skewed, viewed through a lense of pain and resentment, that's why they are "born" evil and why they have an uphill battle to undertake to become good.


So to take V as an example, a vampire would probably base itself on the day that V cast familicide, much more than on the day V realized the implication of casting familicide, even if the latter was way more devastating psychologically, because the former is where V gave in to his base impulses, bloodlust, vengence, hatred, moreso than any other time we've seen. On that day, V was delighted to slaughter all of the ABD's family, if front of her, specifically to torment her.
I disagree, V did not feel bad when they killed the dragons. I'd say that V's vampires would be one with extreme self-loathing who would consider themselves beyond the pale and refuse to uphold any kind of moral standard.

It should be noted, though, that Durkon* says a vampire absorbs first "the lowest, darkest moments of an host's life" and indeed shows two memories (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) that happened weeks apart, so we may be both right, and an hypothetical Vaarsuvius* would absorbs first all the moments related to Familicide.

[NoHaxJustPi]

V’s vampire for during Familicide would probably remind you of the three souls’ initial dialogue in 635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html).
Crush the world beneath your heel.
Destroy anyone who has ever slighted you.
Tear down creation just to see if you can.

[zimmerwald1915]

V’s vampire for during Familicide would probably remind you of the three souls’ initial dialogue in 635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html).
Crush the world beneath your heel.
Destroy anyone who has ever slighted you.
Tear down creation just to see if you can.
Yes, Mr. Burlew does like his emblematic declarations, doesn't he? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)

(That is to say, Ganonron, Haerta, and Jephton were speaking largely as ciphers for their respective alignments, and any hypothetical vampire is likely to resemble one more than the others [probably Haerta, since she's the NE one of the bunch, and Vaarsuvius's vampire would also presumably be NE], rather than a gestalt of all three.)

[NoHaxJustPi]

That actually seems accurate. V’s vampire would be about revenge if based on Familicide’s casting. Disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

[understatement]

That actually seems accurate. V’s vampire would be about revenge if based on Familicide’s casting. Disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

Zhe'd be zir own evil opposite! :D

[dps]

Miko: Miko's vampire has got to be basically Miko when executing Shojo and attacking Hinjo, right?


No, as best as I can tell, she died still thinking she did the right thing there. Her worst day was probably when she couldn't find out who removed the tag from that mattress.

[Squire Doodad]

When the vampire says it's your worst day personified, I don't think that means the day that was saddest for you. It means who you are at your worst. It is essentially all your flaws magnified. Durkon's a tough one because of course he's such a generally good dude that it took the saddest day of his life for him to get angry enough to go to such a dark place.

This seems fairly accurate. What the "Player Vampires" would be more like "Dark Players" than what happened on their worst day. That said, as can be seen from Greg this isn't just an inversion of a character, but rather digging up the worst potential aspects of them and magnifying them until you have something different and horrific.
Interestingly enough, several people in the Order would have already seen this in the form of other people. (Vamp Roy ~ Miko, Vamp Elan ~ Tarquin).

[Mechalobster]

This seems fairly accurate. What the "Player Vampires" would be more like "Dark Players" than what happened on their worst day. That said, as can be seen from Greg this isn't just an inversion of a character, but rather digging up the worst potential aspects of them and magnifying them until you have something different and horrific.
Interestingly enough, several people in the Order would have already seen this in the form of other people. (Vamp Roy ~ Miko, Vamp Elan ~ Tarquin).

The "Shadow Archetype" is a classic storytelling trope for good reason.

[nolongeralurker]

There was nothing accidental about Vaarsuvius killing countless people. They were bragging about their massive body count a second after they'd done it.

Ah yes, but V did accidentally kill countless people. You know, on top on the ones V killed intentionally.

What Fyraltari said. I probably should've said "countless human beings" to specify what I meant. Hopefully nobody thought I meant dragons aren't people. Yes, V should've felt guilty over killing countless dragons too (and V did, after a bit). (If I remember correctly, there's a quote from the Giant that discusses this. Can't find it right now.) And I guess maybe I shouldn't've said "accidentally," because that kinda implies V was completely innocent in the incident, which wasn't the case. It was more of an 'unintentional side effect of doing something evil,' so V still bears at least some moral responsibility for the humans' deaths, because while V didn't intend to kill them, their deaths came about as an (unforseen, though possible forseeable if V had done enough research on the topic) consequence of committing a great act of evil. So V would be right to feel at least some guilt for killing the humans, if only because V shouldn't have recklessly cast such a powerful spell without researching the consequences better. (And of course, V should never have cast the spell in any case because V shouldn't have killed the dragons.) So I guess I'll change my question to "Which feels worse: when someone threatens to kill your kids and steal their souls and you think they have a good chance of succeeding, or when you realize you killed a bunch of humans unintentionally but as a direct result of an evil action you chose to do?" ...Hopefully that makes sense.


I do think familicide was instigated by V being at her lowest and feeing completely terrified and desperate and helpless.

I'm gonna disagree. I think V choosing to become possessed was partly motivated by that, yes, but ultimately it came down to pride because V could've taken the 'kill yourself' option. By the time Familicide was cast, V's family was no longer in danger (at least, not immediately, since I suppose you could say that V did have a semi-reasonable point about other dragons seeking revenge, though maybe not since the black dragon had no other immediate family left). At that point it was just about pride. 'You threatened my family so now I'm gonna kill all of your relatives!"

[CriticalFailure]

I'm gonna disagree. I think V choosing to become possessed was partly motivated by that, yes, but ultimately it came down to pride because V could've taken the 'kill yourself' option. By the time Familicide was cast, V's family was no longer in danger (at least, not immediately, since I suppose you could say that V did have a semi-reasonable point about other dragons seeking revenge, though maybe not since the black dragon had no other immediate family left). At that point it was just about pride. 'You threatened my family so now I'm gonna kill all of your relatives!"

I'd argue V's decision to cast familicide came down her family being threatened being one of her lowest, most desperate, most terrifying moments. Yes, her pride and arrogance and obsession with arcane power caused it, but had she not been desperate and terrified (also don't think the kys plan was terribly plausible or guaranteed to work, the important thing was it showed she felt the need to control the situation herself and not admit failure). The setting aside of morality and need for revenge was definitely in part due to lashing out and asserting control after an incredibly painful threat to her family where she was desperate and had no control of what was going on.

V's worst sides being revealed when she is desperate/terrified/trying to regain control over a horrible situation meshes very well with the idea of OOTS vampires being based entirely on someone's worst moments.

[nolongeralurker]

I'd argue V's decision to cast familicide came down her family being threatened being one of her lowest, most desperate, most terrifying moments. [...] The setting aside of morality and need for revenge was definitely in part due to lashing out and asserting control after an incredibly painful threat to her family where she was desperate and had no control of what was going on.

I misunderstood you earlier - I thought you meant V was feeling helpless (because V's family was in danger) at the time Familicide was cast. Just thought about it some more and yeah, it was probably also a psychological defense mechanism. A subconscious 'you made me feel helpless so I'll make darn sure none of you can ever make me feel that way again!'

[CriticalFailure]

Thinking more about anti-vampires, I think Durkon's, Elan's, and O-Chul's would be pretty much like they are, while Roy's would still be responsible but a lot more patient and less controlling. The obvious answer for Haley's is more trusting, less greedy, and more confident but I don't know about more details. Since these 4 are already good aligned there is less change, like with evil characters and their vampires.

Miko's I would guess would reflect her good qualities as a paladin and presumably not her belief that she was special or the monastic rigidity she was taught.

Belkar's is hard, it is probably kind of a normal ranger; it seems like his best moments have been with animals so maybe a ranger who actually protects animals? And protects his allies?

V is actually surprisingly hard. I think the times when V checks her arrogance and works as a team member can be some indication. V said her happiest day was when she married Inkyrius, so maybe anti-vampire V is actually a devoted spouse who is more focused on her marriage than adventuring?

Xykon is hard because he's such a ****. Perhaps completely obsessed with bad coffee to the exclusion of all else. Depending on whether or not you interpret his general lechery pre lichification in SOD as evil or not (I tend to put it south of neutral based on the objectifying perviness), maybe bad coffee and good women.

I think Redcloak's anti-vampire would actually be a decent person, based on the scenes in SOD pre-sapphire guard massacre and when Right-Eye convinces him to briefly abandon the plan, until Xykon press gangs the whole village. Based on this, his anti-vampire would be pretty family oriented and presumably content to try to be a good village cleric and live a simple and peaceful life.

[kiapet]

I feel like vampire Elan would be a lot like Tarquin, who is basically Elan's narrative sense brought to the extreme. Like Elan said, "stories are important, but not important enough to hurt people over". Of course he would probably be more chaotic in how that played out, enacting whatever childish fantasies entered his mind.

Roy would absolutely be the Roy who was so obsessed over his own quest line, he abandoned a member of his party who he perceived as an annoying hindrance.

Haley would regress to being a greedy thief who trusted no-one, but without the more redeeming features she had even in the beginning.

V would be Dark V, of course, who valued power over all else.

And I would argue that Belkar lived out his worst days for much of the comic, as for a long time he didn't try to contain his worst impulses unless forced to by someone else. Vampire Belkar would ditch all his character development and be a non-stop murder machine.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Xykon has probably been evil for pretty much his entire life.
When he’s invited to protect the world, he kills Xavion. He blasts paladins for no reason, and kills potential employees because their names are too long. Also, he killed Fyron for a crown that had no powers at all. And there’s the objectifying of women.

[CriticalFailure]

Xykon has probably been evil for pretty much his entire life.
When he’s invited to protect the world, he kills Xavion. He blasts paladins for no reason, and kills potential employees because their names are too long. Also, he killed Fyron for a crown that had no powers at all. And there’s the objectifying of women.

Further evidence that vamp Xykon would be pretty similar to lich Xykon and anti-vamp Xykon would have no interests outside of coffee and collecting shinies without murdering an archemage for them.

[woweedd]

Xykon has probably been evil for pretty much his entire life.
When he’s invited to protect the world, he kills Xavion. He blasts paladins for no reason, and kills potential employees because their names are too long. Also, he killed Fyron for a crown that had no powers at all. And there’s the objectifying of women.
Plus, literally the first thing we see him do, when he's 4 YEARS OLD, is resurrect his dead dog as a zombie, and then make it kill small animals for him.

[understatement]

Anti-vamp Tarquin would be a peaceful, just ruler that doesn't control his empire through fear and intimidation with a little torture throughout.

...

Huh.

[martianmister]

Roy's worst day would be the day his brother died. Vampire Roy would hate his father and use all of his powers to keep him out of pearly gates of Celestia. I can see him killing his sister and his father's wizard colleagues for fun.

Haley's worst day would be the day her mother killed. Vampire Haley would hate and blame the city she grown up, and raze it to the ground with all the people she know.

Elan's worst day would be the day he noticed how evil his father truly is. Vampire Elan would do anything to destroy his father's evil empire.

Belkar's worst day would be the day he bullied at home. Vampire Belkar would commit genocide against his own kind.

Vaarsuvius' worst day would be the day her family is threatened by the ancient black dragon. Vampire Vaarsuvius would hunt down that dragon's all relatives, just to make sure that no one can threaten her family again.

Durkon worst day, oh wait...

Xykon's worst day would be the day his dog died. Vampire Xykon would be a mass serial killer, always angry to the world.

Redcloak's worst day would be the day his family murdered. Vampire Redcloak would only care about exacting revenge on Azurites.

Miko's worst day would be the day she lost her paladinhood. Vampire Miko would only care about exacting revenge on Xykon and OotS.

O-Chul worst day would be the day hobgoblins invaded the city. Vampire O-Chul would only care about killing hobgoblins he once protected.

Bandana's worst day would be the day Andi hit her in the head. Vampire Bandana would do terrible thing to her, I guess.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Vampire Xykon sounds a lot like Human Xykon and Lich Xykon. Guess he’s just a jerk.

[magic9mushroom]

And there’s the objectifying of women.

Ehhhhh, treating a succubus as a sex object is kind of justified and not particularly likely to cause offence. "Literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex", and all.

If you want to hit him on this angle, it's implied he was an aggravated rapist in his youth. Or at least, I can't think of many other ways he'd be able to comment on the sexual prowess of kidnapped virgins.

[Goblin_Priest]

Xykon's worst day would be the day his dog died. Vampire Xykon would be a mass serial killer, always angry to the world.

I don't really consider that moment to have been much of a turning point for Xykon, in terms of morality/emotion/personality.

Xykon's worst day, imo, is the day that he lost all of his magic, attacking Lirian's gate.

Either that, or the day he realized the side-effects of being a Lich, but I guess by then he's already undead anyways, and can't get vamped.

[Kish]

Ehhhhh, treating a succubus as a sex object is kind of justified and not particularly likely to cause offence. "Literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex", and all.

If you want to hit him on this angle, it's implied he was an aggravated rapist in his youth. Or at least, I can't think of many other ways he'd be able to comment on the sexual prowess of kidnapped virgins.
He tried to force a woman he'd widowed to marry him in the time he was on-panel. There's no need to speculate about his youth to observe, "Look, a rapist."

[CriticalFailure]

Ehhhhh, treating a succubus as a sex object is kind of justified and not particularly likely to cause offence. "Literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex", and all.

If you want to hit him on this angle, it's implied he was an aggravated rapist ineven though his youth. Or at least, I can't think of many other ways he'd be able to comment on the sexual prowess of kidnapped virgins.

Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that mention. Now that you mention it the joke about kidnapping virgins cracked me up.


He tried to force a woman he'd widowed to marry him in the time he was on-panel. There's no need to speculate about his youth to observe, "Look, a rapist."

When did he do that? I can't remember Xykon ever even mentioning the idea of marriage?

[woweedd]

Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that mention. Now that you mention it the joke about kidnapping virgins cracked me up.



When did he do that? I can't remember Xykon ever even mentioning the idea of marriage?
Tarquin. Kish is referring to Tarquin.

[CriticalFailure]

Tarquin. Kish is referring to Tarquin.

Ah. I guess it became unclear that we were talking about Xykon? sorry

[martianmister]

Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that mention. Now that you mention it the joke about kidnapping virgins cracked me up.

If you though they were talking about Xykon, which joke was that?

[Kish]

Indeed, I was thrown by the "treating a succubus as a sex object" bit because I didn't realize it was justifying Xykon's attitude toward the waiter, not Tarquin's attitude toward Sabine.

My mistake.

[CriticalFailure]

If you though they were talking about Xykon, which joke was that?

I don't know if spoilers are really necessary for this but in SOD when Xykon meets Redcloak and Right-Eye he tells them their evil plan can't involve kidnapping virgins, because he's tried it and prefers "someone who's driven a few nails."

[MReav]

I would say Belkar's worst day was when Durkon got vamped. He got curb-stomped by a vampire, nearly got eaten to death while helpless, had almost been vamped, got mind controlled and turned into a weapon, watched someone he depended on sacrifice himself for him despite thinking it was stupid of him to do so, was drained to almost the last drop making him extremely weak, was given a crisis of conscience, and was nearly executed by his disbelieving allies.

[Rrmcklin]

I would say Belkar's worst day was when Durkon got vamped. He got curb-stomped by a vampire, nearly got eaten to death while helpless, had almost been vamped, got mind controlled and turned into a weapon, watched someone he depended on sacrifice himself for him despite thinking it was stupid of him to do so, was drained to almost the last drop making him extremely weak, was given a crisis of conscience, and was nearly executed by his disbelieving allies.

I've noticed a lot of people talking about what would be like the person's saddest day, but in context, "worst day" isn't referring to that.

They can coincide, because when people are weak and vulnerable they're less likely to be on their best, but what Durkula was talking about was who a person is when you peel back the masks they wear and let their worst impulses/thoughts lay bear.

In that regard, the day Durkon was killed doesn't count at all; that Belkar actually cared at all signifies it as one of his better days as a person.

[Squire Doodad]

I've noticed a lot of people talking about what would be like the person's saddest day, but in context, "worst day" isn't referring to that.

They can coincide, because when people are weak and vulnerable they're less likely to be on their best, but what Durkula was talking about was who a person is when you peel back the masks they wear and let their worst impulses/thoughts lay bear.

In that regard, the day Durkon was killed doesn't count at all; that Belkar actually cared at all signifies it as one of his better days as a person.

I assume that for Belkar it would be his single greatest murdering spree then? So...we don't really know, because there may well be hundreds of candidates we don't know about.

[CriticalFailure]

So you're saying Durkon's worst day was also his most painful in this case because it brought out the worst in him?

[Aveline]

So you're saying Durkon's worst day was also his most painful in this case because it brought out the worst in him?

That's something I would agree with. On that day, Durkon wanted in his heart of hearts for Hurak to be condemned to Hel (and everyone associated with him, for some reason). That's what made his vampire so eager to carry out Hel's wishes.

Thinking about it now, it's probably also significant to why Durkon's trick worked: Durkon was angry in no small part due his love for his mother, and Durkula probably wouldn't have felt such emotional conflict if he didn't also care about Sigdi on some level.

[Rrmcklin]

So you're saying Durkon's worst day was also his most painful in this case because it brought out the worst in him?

Yes, exactly. For many people, the same will probably be true, though it's not guaranteed.

[Fyraltari]

I’d say Belkar’s worst day is whatever made him who he is, in his backstory we won’t ever be given. Meaning that vampire!Belkar is pretty much exactly the same as earlyOOTS!Belkar but with fangs instead of a pulse.