Crafting Inherent Tomes without Wish or Miracle.

[Yogibear41]

Looking for ways to craft the Inherent stat boosting tomes without access to Miracle or Wish.

So far I have come up with

Being an Artificer
Being a 12th+ level warlock
Being a Midgard Dwarf, or using shapechange to become one.

Was wondering if there were any other ways.

[Troacctid]

You can craft a psionic version with reality revision.

[Uncle Pine]

If PF is on the table, anyone with the Master Craftsman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman/) feat and a high enough bonus in one Craft or Profession skill can do it (i.e. a commoner with Profession (farmer), or a nurse with Profession (midwife)) by beating a DC 27 check. Curiously enough, as long as the check is failed by 5 or more (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/) the tome can still be created, but it's cursed.

[Feantar]

If PF is on the table, anyone with the Master Craftsman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman/) feat and a high enough bonus in one Craft or Profession skill can do it (i.e. a commoner with Profession (farmer), or a nurse with Profession (midwife)) by beating a DC 27 check. Curiously enough, as long as the check is failed by 5 or more (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/) the tome can still be created, but it's cursed.

To build on this in PF, since the item doesn't directly cast the spell, any spellcaster can make it by increasing the DC by 5. I think. I find PFs item creation mechanics confusing because I read them from pfsrd and they are kind of dispersed, so I might be wrong.

[Jack_Simth]

To build on this in PF, since the item doesn't directly cast the spell, any spellcaster can make it by increasing the DC by 5. I think. I find PFs item creation mechanics confusing because I read them from pfsrd and they are kind of dispersed, so I might be wrong.

That's right... but in Pathfinder, EVERYONE needs to make a Spellcraft check to make an item (although Master Craftsman changes the skill used). It's a low DC (5 + the item's caster level), and each missing requirement adds 5 to the DC. Note that you need the actual spell for potions, spell trigger (wands, staves, et cetera) and spell completion (scrolls, mostly) items. For constructs, you also can't bypass the caster level requirement that way.

So a Sorcerer with maximum ranks in Spellcraft, an Int of 10, and no other investment in Spellcraft can make items of Caster Level = Class Level +8 by taking ten. Class Level +3 if the Sorcerer is missing one requirement. Class Level -2 if the Sorcerer is missing two. Obviously, this makes Wizards quite good at crafting.

Edit: Oh yes, and you can double how quickly you work by adding +5 to the DC as well.

[Bphill561]

If your good and got the feat earlier, Ancestral Relic can be used to craft/pray for tomes without the spells. The only downside is it is not true crafting, so time reducers cannot be applied. The best thing is the ancestral relic has a price cap of half of your expected wealth per level, but the value of the book drops back down once it is read.

Unfortunately the bonding ritual from the DMGII probably does not work since it can only be permanent items.

[Endarire]

GM fiat/homebrew.

[Psyren]

If PF is on the table, anyone with the Master Craftsman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman/) feat and a high enough bonus in one Craft or Profession skill can do it (i.e. a commoner with Profession (farmer), or a nurse with Profession (midwife)) by beating a DC 27 check. Curiously enough, as long as the check is failed by 5 or more (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/) the tome can still be created, but it's cursed.

If you're using Master Craftsman, the profession or craft skill needs to be related to the item in question. Librarian shouldn't raise too many eyebrows here (and can be used for a wide variety of other wondrous items too.)

As stated though, if you have a caster level you don't need MC at all, just the basic feat and crank up the DC for everything you're missing (e.g. the spells in question.)

[Uncle Pine]

If you're using Master Craftsman, the profession or craft skill needs to be related to the item in question. Librarian shouldn't raise too many eyebrows here (and can be used for a wide variety of other wondrous items too.)

As stated though, if you have a caster level you don't need MC at all, just the basic feat and crank up the DC for everything you're missing (e.g. the spells in question.)

Actually, I've looked into this and while the general item creation basics (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats) for PF mention that everyone can use an associated Craft or Profession skill in lieu of Spellcraft by default without any sort of extra feat or resource, Master Craftsman does not. Therefore, this strikes me as a basic specific vs. general scenario, where Master Craftsman allows you to use any one Craft or Profession skill as opposed to the general rule requiring associated skills.

[thelastorphan]

The answer I got from several places when digging around also seemed to be that Master Craftsmen just replaces the spellcraft check and allows the creation of anything. There is debate over this for sure. But the language of the feat seems to be establishing a replacement for the general rule, not an expansion.

[emeraldstreak]

The answer I got from several places when digging around also seemed to be that Master Craftsmen just replaces the spellcraft check and allows the creation of anything. There is debate over this for sure. But the language of the feat seems to be establishing a replacement for the general rule, not an expansion.

Some believe PF RAW can even remove cost by adding another +5 DC.

I believe PF crafting is worse than the original.

[Psyren]

Actually, I've looked into this and while the general item creation basics (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats) for PF mention that everyone can use an associated Craft or Profession skill in lieu of Spellcraft by default without any sort of extra feat or resource, Master Craftsman does not. Therefore, this strikes me as a basic specific vs. general scenario, where Master Craftsman allows you to use any one Craft or Profession skill as opposed to the general rule requiring associated skills.


The answer I got from several places when digging around also seemed to be that Master Craftsmen just replaces the spellcraft check and allows the creation of anything. There is debate over this for sure. But the language of the feat seems to be establishing a replacement for the general rule, not an expansion.

"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." So at a minimum you would need to explain to your GM how you're doing that. I could sort of see (farmer) being usable for a Manual of Gainful Exercise, but not so much for a Tome of Leadership and Influence.


Some believe PF RAW can even remove cost by adding another +5 DC.

I believe PF crafting is worse than the original.

Cost is in a separate section than the construction requirements for exactly this reason. Anything can be bad if you intentionally read it to be.

[Uncle Pine]

"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." So at a minimum you would need to explain to your GM how you're doing that. I could sort of see (farmer) being usable for a Manual of Gainful Exercise, but not so much for a Tome of Leadership and Influence.

The latter could be crafted the same way you created the former, except farming vegetables or fruits that contain serotonin (i.e. bananas): for the purpose of magic, better mood and higher Charisma may be close enough. Or maybe it's vegetables of a certain colour or shape that are better suited to enhance Charisma. Or maybe it's tied to the minerals in the water you use to grow them, the ground, or the kind of bedtime stories you expose the little plants to... There are plenty of possible explanations which don't necessarily make less or more sense than "I roll Spellcraft". :smallwink:

[Jack_Simth]

"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." So at a minimum you would need to explain to your GM how you're doing that. I could sort of see (farmer) being usable for a Manual of Gainful Exercise, but not so much for a Tome of Leadership and Influence.

"Create" is used both for mundane crafting and magic crafting. It's unclear which form they mean. It could be referencing that you have to make the base item via that skill, it could be just saying that you use that skill in place of Spellcraft when making the item into a magical one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A shadowcraft mage can emulate miracle with silent image, meaning it's possible to craft such a tome with silent image since you're not really casting miracle.

I don't believe the Create Device feat, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, requires you to actually have spells available in order to craft Devices, so it should be possible. Also note that crafting times can be as low as a standard action, since Devices are nonmagical and can thus be crafted via fabricate. You might even be able to use polymorph any object to make one...

Can shaedlings create Devices from shadow gossamer?

Can psions and mages create Devices using [psionic] minor creation? [Psionic] Major creation?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Doesn't work by strict RAW just like how Shadow Conjuration doesn't let you satisfy crafting prerequisites of spells it replicates.Maybe, but you can still create one from scratch via spontaneous magic item creation.

[Crichton]

A shadowcraft mage can emulate miracle with silent image, meaning it's possible to craft such a tome with silent image since you're not really casting miracle.



Not sure that would work with traditional crafting, for that very reason that you're not actually casting it, since the Shadowcraft Mage would be preparing silent image, and the crafting rules say you have to have prepared whatever spell is the prerequisite. Shadowcraft Mage doesn't turn the silent image into the other spell until it's cast, right?

[Psyren]

"Create" is used both for mundane crafting and magic crafting. It's unclear which form they mean. It could be referencing that you have to make the base item via that skill, it could be just saying that you use that skill in place of Spellcraft when making the item into a magical one.

"The item" in the passage means the magic item, as clarified by the very next sentence:

"You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items)."

Mundane items have no spell requirements, nor any need to reference magic item creation rules.


The latter could be crafted the same way you created the former, except farming vegetables or fruits that contain serotonin (i.e. bananas): for the purpose of magic, better mood and higher Charisma may be close enough. Or maybe it's vegetables of a certain colour or shape that are better suited to enhance Charisma. Or maybe it's tied to the minerals in the water you use to grow them, the ground, or the kind of bedtime stories you expose the little plants to... There are plenty of possible explanations which don't necessarily make less or more sense than "I roll Spellcraft". :smallwink:

If you get that one past your GM then more power to you :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

"The item" in the passage means the magic item, as clarified by the very next sentence:

"You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items)."

Mundane items have no spell requirements, nor any need to reference magic item creation rules.

In which case, it's only replacing the spellcraft check, and there's no inherent need for the item to "match" the skill used.

[thelastorphan]

I think the feat doesn't justify itself unless any skill can be used for any item.

Other interpretations are valid but the RAW of the feat can be interpreted several ways. I asked in the RAW thread on this forum and got two answers. That's also true of the same question ( not asked by me) on stackexchange and the paizo boards. And there has been no FAQ on this despite it being asked for several times.

[Psyren]

In which case, it's only replacing the spellcraft check, and there's no inherent need for the item to "match" the skill used.

Spellcraft isn't used "to create the item" though; that passage only exists in Master Craftsman, and to me seems to exist as an intentional restriction to what might otherwise be a decently powerful ability, i.e. to make magic items without needing magic.

With that said, I do acknowledge that restriction isn't as absolute in the wording as it could have been.


I think the feat doesn't justify itself unless any skill can be used for any item.

I disagree - I think there are Profession and Craft skills on the list that can be used, if not for EVERY Wondrous/MA&A item, at least for a sufficient variety of items that the feat has plenty of worth. It's just that those skills might not be useful for for much else besides this crafting, becoming essentially a minor skill tax.