Removing the level adjustments for Templates

[LadyHellstar]

Ok so from time to time I get people asking me or see this question on varies Forums: How do you remove the level adjustments for Templates?
Well my GM recently removed the level adjustment for my templates but these are the goals I had to meet.

1: I never asked for the level adjustment to be removed, so it came as an awesome surprise.
2: I've been playing a solo campaign twice a week for 6 months now.
3: My GM added into the game some non canon entities.
4: I'm playing a 3.5 DnD Edition of Forgotten Realms.
5: These entities are Primordial in nature, which means for example take AO from the Forgotten realms settings, these entities could say "sit down kid, the grown ups are talking"
7: So my character being the good little Oghmarite he is ( Oghma the greater god of knowledge in Forgotten Realms ) decided to learn more about them since information was somewhat lacking.
8: My character had previously met a non canon group called the Blood Guard and trained with them for a bit, which allowed me to take a home brew feat called Mind Palace. Mind Palace enables you to have almost perfect recall ( +20 to any memory roll ) of any event and only take half as much time to sleep, it requires two hours of meditation to activate.
9: Through reading some ancient books he found out about an entity called the Maker. It was described as a giant pool of blood and in most text mislabelled as the monster pool.Because it bought monsters into existence when anyone interacted with it.
It was in fact a Primordial Entity that would usually leave a world in it's earliest stages of history but the ancient Dwarves had managed to trap it using high rune magic.
It was stuck on Toril to the present day though it could move around the world but not off world.
My character joined a high powered group to find out where some mutated monsters where coming from, think mutated versions of monsters.( GM's just put whatever template you want on monsters to simulate that ).
We found the Maker and managed to unbind it from the ancient Dwarven Rune Magic and it moved on but not before my Character had to make a difficulty 30 will roll to commune with it.
I fortunately managed to blitz it in with a nat 20 ( I would've needed an 18+ dice roll other wise ) so before it left I was interviewed by it ( if I failed I would've passed out and got no benefit from the meeting).
It appeared to my Character as a copy of my Character and imparted information to me that was to complex for my Character to understand. Then it left.
Afterward To quote my GM " you meditate and access your Mind Palace, it looks like a rabid spider monkey on cocaine has been through it, there are holes punched into the walls, there are books everywhere and there is a left over half a sandwich in the corner.
So That was Stage One.

I will talk about stage two if people are interested enough lol.

[Buufreak]

I'm more curious along the lines of how you define time to time. Its an argument that I've literally only seen in one other thread, and that's because you necro'd the crap out of it.

Beyond that, it sounds like your DM made you jump through a long list of arbitrary hoops in order to get a reward of some kind. Almost like this is a game that revolves entirely around doing that exact thing.

[LadyHellstar]

Stage Two The Deer.

So after the Maker I then ( thanks to various hints ) looked up The Deer.
The Deer is a primordial entity of Nature and Order.
I took an npc and myself to her domain to Draw a picture of her.
Together we drew a picture of her, to us when were drew the picture we thought we were 60 feet away, it turns out we were 36 miles away ( she's mind bogglingly huge ).
The Deer has a Sphinx like body except deer as the animal parts and has 32 tips on her antlers.
We were merrily drawing away when from behind us we heard a voice.
It was The Deer, we didn't think we'd disturbed her, but she sees all.
She asked us our intentions towards her and we replyied that we were just here to draw her magnificient form.
She seemed plaesed at that and took the next hour to millenia to explain to us how the multiverse works.
Needless to say my characters tiny brain could'nt handle that ether.
So the GM told me That my Mind Palace was not in diseray any longer.
There were proper passege ways and alcoves where before it it was haphazzard holes and the like.

[LadyHellstar]

Unfortunately time to time is measured by GM's interdependently :(
And Yes my GM made me Jump through a whole lot of rings to get that result, but I agree with it.
Removing the level adjustment for templates should not be easy.
I'm only up to stage 2 here, I have at least 3 more stages to go lol.
I will add that this is just the most bare basics of what's happened, if you like these story ideas as a player or a GM it's pretty easy to flesh them out.

[Buufreak]

Here's the issue though. You are playing a solo game, right? So... What the hell is the point? If you aren't having to power scale against another player, and with the horizon of a maximum level being nonexistent, why is it so important? Why not just take the time and experience that you are sinking into this and take other levels?

[LadyHellstar]

Here's the issue though. You are playing a solo game, right? So... What the hell is the point? If you aren't having to power scale against another player, and with the horizon of a maximum level being nonexistent, why is it so important? Why not just take the time and experience that you are sinking into this and take other levels?
Well that's the thing, I was trying to make some sort of a guide for Gm's based on my experiences as a player with a character that has had the templates level removed and what my GM considered a good amount of hoops o jump through for PC's

[LadyHellstar]

It never had any thing to do with other players, just a story of what my GM put me through to achieve those results, I don't think we are on the same page here?

[LadyHellstar]

[QUOTE=Buufreak;23791546]Here's the issue though. You are playing a solo game, right? So... What the hell is the point? If you aren't having to power scale against another player.
Well the point is roll playing and you can't seem to understand it judging by our questions . but each to there own.
People have different ways of playing games, I ask you not to judge me and i will not judge you.

[JNAProductions]

It never had any thing to do with other players, just a story of what my GM put me through to achieve those results, I don't think we are on the same page here?

The main point of LA is to produce balanced characters. Now, it fails pretty badly at that, but IN THEORY, a PC with 5 Class Levels and +3 LA from Templates is equal to a PC with 8 Class Levels.

It's also used for gauging encounters, so that means the DM needs to know the LA of the template anyway, even if it's given for free. (Given how wonky CR is, though, that's of lesser importance.)

But, to put it another way, in a solo game, it doesn't matter whether you get a template for no LA, usual LA, double LA... There's no other PC to compare to and be balanced against.

[Uncle Pine]

I once had the chance to play a wizard who was a follower of Oghma and it was a blast, so of course as a fellow Oghmite I'm even more glad to help!

Now I'm digging the joined storytelling effort and the plot you and your DM are playing through and the way I usually remove LA is via the LA buy-off rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) from Unearthed Arcana, those for lesser variants from the Player's Guide to Faerun (when relevant, although they are for base races rather than templates), or one of the LA-reducing rituals in Savage Species, but I fail to see any template being mentioned in your story. Am I missing something? :smallconfused:

Unless you were talking about your Mind Palace, which sounds basically equivalent to a DC 15 Autohypnosis check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) and a Heward's bedroll so giving it any point of LA would be a bit overkill.

[LadyHellstar]

Ok well this has pretty much gone off topic.
I was trying to give an example to GM to handle a certain type of scenario.
and it ended up in a nit picking, intentionally or other wise

[LadyHellstar]

I would be very happy to help you out in any way I can?

[Buufreak]

It's not nitpicking. It is an inquiry of purpose. If you are playing a solo game in which you have taken various mechanical effects that come with level adjustment, what is the point of the hoop jumping required to remove them? Solo games, in my experience, are fairly mechanic lite, so I am failing to understand how and why removing the LA of a template is needed, necessary, or otherwise warranted.

[LadyHellstar]

I once had the chance to play a wizard who was a follower of Oghma and it was a blast, so of course as a fellow Oghmite I'm even more glad to help!

Now I'm digging the joined storytelling effort and the plot you and your DM are playing through and the way I usually remove LA is via the LA buy-off rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) from Unearthed Arcana, those for lesser variants from the Player's Guide to Faerun (when relevant, although they are for base races rather than templates), or one of the LA-reducing rituals in Savage Species, but I fail to see any template being mentioned in your story. Am I missing something? :smallconfused:

Unless you were talking about your Mind Palace, which sounds basically equivalent to a DC 15 Autohypnosis check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) and a Heward's bedroll so giving it any point of LA would be a bit overkill.

Actually the part about Templates won't be talked about till stage 5, I was just seeing if there was an interest in the topic first to save myself typing out the entire story.

[LadyHellstar]

It's not nitpicking. It is an inquiry of purpose. If you are playing a solo game in which you have taken various mechanical effects that come with level adjustment, what is the point of the hoop jumping required to remove them? Solo games, in my experience, are fairly mechanic lite, so I am failing to understand how and why removing the LA of a template is needed, necessary, or otherwise warranted.

This is supposed to be an example of how a GM can remove the Level adjustments for templates for a PC, which should require some hoops to jump through. The fact that my example is from a solo game really shouldn't matter.

[LadyHellstar]

So basically this was supposed to be a post about how hard it should be for a PC to remove the level adjustments for Templates.
I wanted to give an example of what I went through as a PC to get to that. but because of negative feed back I will cut it short.
It took me six months of playing a solo game twice a week to get that.
I consider this post closed and i will not comment further on this post.

[Particle_Man]

I think it is good for solo games in getting the player to see other options that they otherwise might automatically dismiss. It removes a psychological barrier to the expansion of options.

[JNAProductions]

So basically this was supposed to be a post about how hard it should be for a PC to remove the level adjustments for Templates.
I wanted to give an example of what I went through as a PC to get to that. but because of negative feed back I will cut it short.
It took me six months of playing a solo game twice a week to get that.
I consider this post closed and i will not comment further on this post.

Others will continue to comment on this. You do not own the thread, and threads are allowed to veer in new and interesting directions.

And I wouldn't even really say the feedback has been negative. A little critical, sure, but mostly just trying to understand the purpose.

Particle Man makes a good point, though.

[Buufreak]

I think it is good for solo games in getting the player to see other options that they otherwise might automatically dismiss. It removes a psychological barrier to the expansion of options.

But why is the barrier there to begin with? Again, I have to point out the loose feel that comes from playing a solo character game. If the entire focus is one the sole character, what does it matter if you end up with 37 character levels with an additional level adjustment of 16? The numbers are entirely arbitrary and until the player or DM imposes some sort of limit, they simply don't matter! Taking time and effort to reduce these values while not getting any form of value in return is a waste of.

And frankly, I couldn't care less if OP is throwing a hissy. This is the internet. Intents are reworked every millisecond. If you can't handle that you need to grow up or find a different media.

[Particle_Man]

As to why the barrier was there to begin with, first, because some people that play solo games have not always played solo games, and so would be carrying memories from other games when the template plusses did matter more mechanically (because there were other players), and, second, because on just reading monster entries (again, perhaps long before entering a solo game - many people read game books before they get to play a game), many people might see that "+4" (for example) and just psychologically dismiss the template, forgetting that it would not be applicable to a solo game.

[Uncle Pine]

Call me Lawful Neutral, but I'd still keep LA in templates during a solo game (and if the player wants to, have it gradually be removed through buy off): the lack of other players doesn't equates lack of balance comparisons, as monsters and everything else in the world are still a perfectly reasonable comparisons. Not to mention that, at least from my experience (and Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz's), PCs from solo games often end up guest starring or making a comeback in actual campaigns - so making them sensible from the start prevents having to convert them later.

[Crake]

Ok well this has pretty much gone off topic.
I was trying to give an example to GM to handle a certain type of scenario.
and it ended up in a nit picking, intentionally or other wise

I mean, based on the title of the thread "removing the level adjustments for templates" it sounds like it's entirely spot on in terms of topic. If the title doesn't match the topic you intend to discuss (which, if not the removal of LA, then what is it?) then perhaps you should change the title to reflect that? I mean, to me it just sounds like you're gushing about the stuff you're doing in your solo game, which is fine, but... there's not much of a discussion to be had there.