Synthetist Unchained Summoner number of attacks

[Selion]

I asked this question in the Simple Raw Questions topic, but, while raw is overly restricting on the matter and i can accept the "3 attacks no matter what", i guess we could have a more relaxed discussion here.
So the question is:
I have a 1th level summoner with the two weapons fighting feat
I got a serpentine eidolon (it has 16 dex, so he qualifies for two weapons fighting while fused with my character)
I would have a total of 4 attacks, but the rule gives a limit of 3
How many attacks i have at level 1th while merged with my eidolon?
Can i add limbs at subsequent levels?

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum.

The first sentence seems to give a limit to attacks, but it's unclear, the second sentence is more straightforward, but it applies just to evolutions
I'd like if you would give different answers according to RAW and to common sense.

Note that this is not a theoretical question, i actually have a character like this (i inherited it from another player, so i had to do a little reverse-engineering on his build, i kinda like the character, but i don't know exactly what he had in mind).

My options would be:
a) the rule gives a limit to evolutions, you still get the eidolon base natural attacks, but you cannot improve their number over the limit
b) Like a), but you are restricted to 3 attacks no matter what, each round you select how to combine weapon attacks and natural attacks without exceeding the limit
Note that both options don't respect strictly RAW

[Psyren]

My stance is that it is indeed 3 attacks maximum (in any combination) but that doesn't stop you from choosing a base form that has more. It simply means that you can only use 3 of those attacks in a single full-attack sequence. As you level that eidolon and the max attacks increases, you can use the rest of what you have available and, eventually, choose evolutions that grant more. (You can also use the retraining rules on a higher-level eidolon once the max attacks are high enough, if you'd rather some of your previous evolutions be spent on that.)

[grarrrg]

RAW: And I say the wording is ham-fisted enough that it would auto-count Unarmed strikes, TWF, and later Iteratives. To the point that the RAW text winds up being dysfunctional.
Yeah, the penalty is minor, but it only cares that you have/could make attacks for them to count [see mini-rant in RAW question thread]...


RAI: original-Eidolons had a Natural Attack limit because playtesters were loading up on cheap attacks (Tentacle cost 1) and either murdering everything and/or severely bogging down combat.
Paizo forgot Arms were a thing, so players just started slapping more and more Arms on and making balls-of-swords instead. So for the Unchained they "fixed" it.
Except they didn't actually fix anything, because the only penalty is "can't add Evolution attacks". There is still nothing stopping you from adding a ton of arms and going ball-of-swords (slow you down with fewer evolution points maybe).

My suggestion is Max Attack limit should be the number of attacks you are allowed to make during a round.
Have as many attacks as you want. Evolve as many attacks as you want. But for any given round pick your favorite Three-to-Seven of them and do what you want.



You say you're a level 1 Unchained Serpentine?
Then you shouldn't have any Arms yet, so I'm not sure what you're TWF with.

[Selion]

RAW: And I say the wording is ham-fisted enough that it would auto-count Unarmed strikes, TWF, and later Iteratives. To the point that the RAW text winds up being dysfunctional.
Yeah, the penalty is minor, but it only cares that you have/could make attacks for them to count [see mini-rant in RAW question thread]...


RAI: original-Eidolons had a Natural Attack limit because playtesters were loading up on cheap attacks (Tentacle cost 1) and either murdering everything and/or severely bogging down combat.
Paizo forgot Arms were a thing, so players just started slapping more and more Arms on and making balls-of-swords instead. So for the Unchained they "fixed" it.
Except they didn't actually fix anything, because the only penalty is "can't add Evolution attacks". There is still nothing stopping you from adding a ton of arms and going ball-of-swords (slow you down with fewer evolution points maybe).

My suggestion is Max Attack limit should be the number of attacks you are allowed to make during a round.
Have as many attacks as you want. Evolve as many attacks as you want. But for any given round pick your favorite Three-to-Seven of them and do what you want.



You say you're a level 1 Unchained Serpentine?
Then you shouldn't have any Arms yet, so I'm not sure what you're TWF with.

I'm a synthetist, so I merge with my eidolon, this is the source of doubts. I totally agree on what you said, regarding eidolon, but it seems that this rule is a little disfunctional applied to this specific archetype, it's like I trade my action economy for nothing, because if I were not merged with my eidolon I could grant it easily the max number of possible attacks. It's fine because the class offers still solid options, I'm just a little upset of rules not working the way they are intended

[grarrrg]

I'm a synthetist, so I merge with my eidolon, this is the source of doubts. I totally agree on what you said, regarding eidolon, but it seems that this rule is a little disfunctional applied to this specific archetype...

It's less a merge and more a replacement.
If your Eidolon doesn't have arms, then you don't have arms (There's a FAQ that explicitly states this, but I hesitate to link to it because the primary topic of that FAQ is another rules nightmare).

And the Max Attack rule is garbage as written, as it's too ham-fisted and doesn't remotely do what it was intended to do.
(Note: in any rules dispute between Synthesist vs [anything], I usually blame the Synthesist, but NOT THIS TIME)

[Selion]

It's less a merge and more a replacement.
If your Eidolon doesn't have arms, then you don't have arms (There's a FAQ that explicitly states this, but I hesitate to link to it because the primary topic of that FAQ is another rules nightmare).

And the Max Attack rule is garbage as written, as it's too ham-fisted and doesn't remotely do what it was intended to do.
(Note: in any rules dispute between Synthesist vs [anything], I usually blame the Synthesist, but NOT THIS TIME)

My oh my :sigh:
This would make this character's design totally useless, unless i make my eidolon grow limbs ASAP...
Likely the guy who made this character had another viewpoint, which incidentally corresponded to my own at first read. Good job Paizo! Ahh, he doesn't even deserve e rant, the majority of rules are well written. I just have to ask my DM, just i'm not comfortable playing illegal characters, neither i like the idea of a retcon.
BTW now i'm curious, what is this FAQ about?

[grarrrg]

BTW now i'm curious, what is this FAQ about?

Only because you asked...
(paraphrased, reminder that it is talking Original-Summoner and not Unchained) Can I use my characters natural attacks while in Eidolon-suit? (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe)

Your character has Claws naturally? GOOD NEWS! Your Eidolon gets extra Claws! Somehow!
But remember the Eidolon effectively replaces your physical self! So your arms stop working! Even though your Claws don't!
Because reasons!!!

[Spore]

Remember that Synthesist is both banned from official play because its RAW is completely imprecise and also that the Unchained Summoner doesn't even HAVE the archetype. Basically all of our discussion here is "ask your DM territory".

[Selion]

Ok, solution is easy, i'll talk to my DM about this messy thing and if we want to act according to FAQ (which is recommendable IMHO) i just need to wait for the second level (which is near) and give my eidolon a pair of limbs to wield my weapons, forfeiting the natural armor (the evolution the previous player chose). It's sub optimal, but synthetist is an archetype which seems made purposely to put shame on martial classes, so it's ok tuning it down a little. I hope at least i keep my feats, because synthetist's eidolon cannot take feats.

[grarrrg]

I hope at least i keep my feats, because synthetist's eidolon cannot take feats.

Yes, your feats still apply, as long as you still meet the prerequisites in Eidolon-suit.

[Ellrin]

Remember that Synthesist is both banned from official play because its RAW is completely imprecise and also that the Unchained Summoner doesn't even HAVE the archetype. Basically all of our discussion here is "ask your DM territory".

Organized play ≠ home games. To my knowledge, Paizo hasn't issued any errata saying "actually just ignore the synthesist archetype," so it's as fair game as anything else in the books unless your DM specifically says otherwise.

Also, don't unchained classes get access to their vanilla version archetypes as long as there aren't any direct conflicts between the vanilla archetype and the unchained class? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that somewhere official.