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Dhavaer
2007-09-30, 06:23 AM
1. CR increases by 1/2 for every non-associated class level, until class levels equal racial hit dice, yes?

2. So an Ogre Kineticist 4 would be CR 5?

That's how I work it out, but Druk the Brilliant down there looks a tad overpowered.

Druk the Brilliant (CR 5)
Male ogre kineticist 4
CE Large giant
Init +1
Senses Darkvision, Low-light vision, Listen +7, Spot +7
Languages Common, Giant
AC 22 (+1 Dex, +6 +1 breastplate, +5 natural) touch 11, flatfooted 20
hp 61 (8 HD)
Fort +9 Ref +4 Will +6
Speed 30ft.
Melee mwk greatsword +9 (2d8+6)
Ranged touch attack +6 (varies)
Base Atk +5 Grp +13
Combat Gear Potion of Fly, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
Psion Powers Known (ML 4th, PP 26):
2nd - Energy Missile, Ego Whip, Energy Stun, Sustenance
1st - Attraction, Control Light, Crystal Shard, Detect Psionics, Energy Ray, Mind Thrust
Abilities Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats Wild Talent, Psionic Body, Psionic Talent x2
Skills Climb +5, Concentration +7, Intimidate +7, Listen +7, Spot +7
Possessions combat gear plus +1 breastplate, mwk greatsword, cloak of resistance +1

Nebo_
2007-09-30, 06:32 AM
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work, but like most things in D&D, it usually doesn't.

Zincorium
2007-09-30, 06:44 AM
Those abilities scores do not look standard, and both rolling and elite array are supposed to be worth +1 CR. Personally I don't think it's worth that much, but when you're increasing a monster's casting stat by 6 it's not irrelevant. Using the standard stats isn't an option, so you should just up the CR to 6 overall and it should be fine.

A fourth level manifester, even one with a whole load of hit points, should reduce the resources of a party of 6th level characters by a small amount, it would be a bit tougher for 5th level characters but it doesn't get life threatening until about 3rd or with fewer players.

Dhavaer
2007-09-30, 06:49 AM
Those abilities scores do not look standard, and both rolling and elite array are supposed to be worth +1 CR.

Where does it say that? The SRD just says 'The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.'

Zincorium
2007-09-30, 06:57 AM
Where does it say that? The SRD just says 'The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.'

Not sure, probably on wizard's site at some point. But it solves the perceived imbalance by pointing to a specific factor involved.

And the fact that you gave him feats that did not start with a 't' and end with 'oughness' probably explains why it's obviously better than most monsters in the mm.

AslanCross
2007-09-30, 07:04 AM
Where does it say that? The SRD just says 'The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.'

Not sure about the SRD, but in the Monster Manual it has a chart that lists CR increases, and basing ability scores on the elite array raises the CR by 1.

EDIT: It has a footnote that says if you advance a monster by class levels, you don't need to apply this as monsters with PC classes are assumed to use the elite array.

EDIT again: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng
Check the table in the "Adding Hit Dice" section.

Dhavaer
2007-09-30, 07:07 AM
Not sure about the SRD, but in the Monster Manual it has a chart that lists CR increases, and basing ability scores on the elite array raises the CR by 1.

Ah. I have found it, but I have also found something else:


Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)

AslanCross
2007-09-30, 07:08 AM
Ach, ninja'd. Yep, that's right.