View Full Version : Made a new creature, have I done it right?
Gamezdude
2019-03-21, 05:09 PM
Im making a CR4 human cultist (no magic, just his dagger) and ive followed the guidelines in the monster manual and come up with the statistics. Im not every good at making monsters and adding classes so i just need to know if ive made any mistakes?
Ignore the red, i made it in excel to calculate some on the numbers, it just means the formula isnt working properly. Bab is correct, just not the grapple nor reach. Dont worry about those.
Annoyingly I cant upload screenshots, so heres a link to it in my drive.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1benWEad5--k1CiojGG3qKPiIJC6jYrns/view?usp=sharing
Kyrell1978
2019-03-21, 05:29 PM
Im making a CR4 human cultist (no magic, just his dagger) and ive followed the guidelines in the monster manual and come up with the statistics. Im not every good at making monsters and adding classes so i just need to know if ive made any mistakes?
Ignore the red, i made it in excel to calculate some on the numbers, it just means the formula isnt working properly. Bab is correct, just not the grapple nor reach. Dont worry about those.
Annoyingly I cant upload screenshots, so heres a link to it in my drive. (I cant find any rules saying I cant, but if its illegal, I apologize in advance)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1benWEad5--k1CiojGG3qKPiIJC6jYrns/view?usp=sharing
Well, a 4th level commoner's bab in 3.x is +2 so unless you've decided to give it a full bab for some reason that isn't correct, grapple is way off but you seem to know that, The bab throws off your other melee and ranged numbers. The melee looks to be off by 2 (again RAW I have to go with the bab for commoner) (+4 dagger/0 trident), while the sling looks to be off by quite a bit (+2 bab, +0 dex, -4 not prof. = -2total). Saves for a 4th level commoner are +1 across the board so you end up with Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0 when you add in bonuses and penalties for ability scores, if this is pathfinder HD should be d6, but I'll assume that it's 3.5. That was all I noticed.
frogglesmash
2019-03-21, 05:29 PM
Typically you'd make a human mobs by building a normal human character with class levels, but ignoring that, humanoids use d8s for HD, and have 3/4 bab so the attack bonuses should be dagger +5, Trident +1, and Sling +3. Humanoids are proficient with simple weapons, so you could replace dagger proficiency with martial weapons proficiency and increase the Trident attack bonus to +5. Finally, humanoids have good reflex saves so the save bonuses should be fort +2, ref +4, will +0. You've also neglected to include skills.
Gamezdude
2019-03-22, 07:55 AM
Well, a 4th level commoner's bab in 3.x is +2 so unless you've decided to give it a full bab for some reason that isn't correct, grapple is way off but you seem to know that, The bab throws off your other melee and ranged numbers. The melee looks to be off by 2 (again RAW I have to go with the bab for commoner) (+4 dagger/0 trident), while the sling looks to be off by quite a bit (+2 bab, +0 dex, -4 not prof. = -2total). Saves for a 4th level commoner are +1 across the board so you end up with Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0 when you add in bonuses and penalties for ability scores, if this is pathfinder HD should be d6, but I'll assume that it's 3.5. That was all I noticed.
Ah yes I see! I'll get those fixed.
Also as for the CR (4) does that seem correct. Although im worried a CR4 Human with only a dagger/trident/sling with no armour wouldnt pose a serious threat. I dont have any plans to make my cultist a spell caster.
Any idea how to make a cultist/s more threatening?
Read again the cr rules: npc class levels increase the cr of a monster of 1/2 per level as they are always considered dissociated.
So if you want your cultist to be CR4 you need to give it 8 commoner levels.
If you want you could use humanoid racial hit dice: every four humanoid rhd you increase the cr of 1 so you could have a monster with 16 hd and cr 4.(it would have 8 bab and tons of hit points and also 6 feats or more and it would also have 4 stat increments)
the_david
2019-03-22, 08:33 AM
Humans with class levels should have a CR that is equal to its class level in 3.5 or equal to class level -1 in Pathfinder.
NPC class levels aren't as good as class levels. Their CR should equal class level -1 in 3.5 or class level -2 in Pathfinder.
The cultist should have a CR of 3 instead of 4. (Or 2 in Pathfinder.) As a human with 4 NPC class levels it also needs a total of 3 feats, as well as proficiency with a single simple weapon.
Keep in mind that commoner is the weakest NPC class. You could easily give them warrior levels instead and they would probably still be somewhat weak compared to the monsters in the monster manual.
The Pathfinder Bestiary suggest that a CR4 creature should have about 40 hp, AC17, +8 attack bonus, an average of 16 damage per round if every attack hits, a +7 on its good saves and +3 on its bad saves.
Humans with class levels should have a CR that is equal to its class level in 3.5 or equal to class level -1 in Pathfinder.
NPC class levels aren't as good as class levels. Their CR should equal class level -1 in 3.5 or class level -2 in Pathfinder.
The cultist should have a CR of 3 instead of 4. (Or 2 in Pathfinder.)
Keep in mind that commoner is the weakest NPC class. You could easily give them warrior levels instead and they would probably still be somewhat weak compared to the monsters in the monster manual.
That is not how it works at all: in 3.5 the rule is that npc class levels always counts as dissociated and so increase the cr of 1/2 per npc class level.
Read the monster building rules instead of posting that.
if you wanted to write suggestions on homebrew cring and not the rules as written cring then you should be posting your comment in the homebrew section and not here in a 3.5 thread.
the_david
2019-03-22, 08:45 AM
That is not how it works at all: in 3.5 the rule is that npc class levels always counts as dissociated and so increase the cr of 1/2 per npc class level.
Read the monster building rules instead of posting that.
if you wanted to write suggestions on homebrew cring and not the rules as written cring then you should be posting your comment in the homebrew section and not here in a 3.5 thread.You can find those rules in the DMG on page 37 and 38. The rules your using are for ceating monsters. (Racial hit dice) The rules you should use are the ones about creating NPCs with NPC classes.
Kyrell1978
2019-03-22, 08:46 AM
Read again the cr rules: npc class levels increase the cr of a monster of 1/2 per level as they are always considered dissociated.
So if you want your cultist to be CR4 you need to give it 8 commoner levels.
If you want you could use humanoid racial hit dice: every four humanoid rhd you increase the cr of 1 so you could have a monster with 16 hd and cr 4.(it would have 8 bab and tons of hit points and also 6 feats or more and it would also have 4 stat increments)
Yep. I forgot that. This right here is also correct.
As for making it more threatening. Warrior instead of commoner would get that full bab, but mostly actual class levels in something rather than NPC levels. Commoner and warriors and whatnot are ok for hordes, but if you want a single enemy capable of challenging the party just build a character slight above the party level.
You can find those rules in the DMG. The rules your using are for creating monsters. (Racial hit dice) The rules you should use are the ones about creating NPCs with NPC classes.
Except that every character is a monster so you can always use the monster building rules and also I was talking about dissociated class levels: search the rules about dissociated class levels before saying the monster building rules only applies to rhd.
here is a link to the rule:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#nonassociatedClassLevels
Monsters are not restrained to creatures with rhd: all the creatures are monsters in fact even further each monster in the monster manuals is a character taking levels in a monstrous class according to savage species.
the_david
2019-03-22, 09:10 AM
Except that every character is a monster so you can always use the monster building rules and also I was talking about dissociated class levels: search the rules about dissociated class levels before saying the monster building rules only applies to rhd.
here is a link to the rule:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#nonassociatedClassLevels
Monsters are not restrained to creatures with rhd: all the creatures are monsters in fact even further each monster in the monster manuals is a character taking levels in a monstrous class according to savage species.
Yes, but the cultist in question only has commoner levels and so he should be treated as one.
Yes, but the cultist in question only has commoner levels and so he should be treated as one.
No it is not associated, read again the rule: a npc class can never ever be associated.
It is a monster like every creature.
Unless you think it is forbidden to add class levels or to add templates to a npc because adding class levels is only allowed on monsters: the rules for making a npc does not says you have the right to take the same npc and make it have more class levels(not even in the class it had).
the_david
2019-03-22, 09:37 AM
DMG. Page 37 and 38:
"Challenge ratings for NPC's.
An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to NPC's level. Thus, an 8th- level Sorcerer is an 8th level encounter."
"Since NPC classes are weaker than PC classes, levels in an NPC class contribute less to a creature's CR than levels in a PC class. For an NPC with an NPC class, determine her Challenge Rating as if she had a PC class with one less level."
DMG. Page 37 and 38:
"Challenge ratings for NPC's.
An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to NPC's level. Thus, an 8th- level Sorcerer is an 8th level encounter."
"Since NPC classes are weaker than PC classes, levels in an NPC class contribute less to a creature's CR than levels in a PC class. For an NPC with an NPC class, determine her Challenge Rating as if she had a PC class with one less level."
It seems dysfunctional: there is two crs per monster.
Also it means a level 1 wizard who is a balor is CR1 if you make this rule here take priority and also a creature with 15 levels in wizard and 14 levels in commoner would be CR14 since it is considered as if it had a pc class with one less level than before.
Also the thread creator did not say it was creating a npc but a creature.
Finally it is in the dmg so I am not sure if it should take priority when creating creatures relatively to a whole manual about creatures(the monster manual)
Kyrell1978
2019-03-22, 11:16 AM
It seems dysfunctional: there is two crs per monster.
Also it means a level 1 wizard who is a balor is CR1 if you make this rule here take priority and also a creature with 15 levels in wizard and 14 levels in commoner would be CR14 since it is considered as if it had a pc class with one less level than before.
Also the thread creator did not say it was creating a npc but a creature.
Finally it is in the dmg so I am not sure if it should take priority when creating creatures relatively to a whole manual about creatures(the monster manual)
For creature with cr, you take their base cr and add the cr from the levels (level -1 for NPC classes) to the cr with the caveat that you always add at least one to the cr. That's the dmg version. This is immensely flawed in my opinion. Just about every first level fighter could solo that fourth level commoner, it should not be a CR 3.
zlefin
2019-03-22, 03:01 PM
noob: I think you're misinterpreting this part
where it says
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.
I think it means they're always nonassociated by default, but they're still subject to the shift for levels > hitdice. and since racial hit dice aren't used for humanoids that would kick in from the start (or maybe after 1st level, not really sure on that).
there's also the fact that the improving monsters rules are known to have a number of flaws in them, and they specifically say the guidelinse are an estimate, and you may need to adjust from them.
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.
Since you need to exceed original hit dice and that the creature does not have original hit dice then you must exceed _ and comparing things to _ is forbidden.
Furthermore even if you take a monster with original hit dice the problem is that nothing says which bolded rule trumps which bold rule and the second bold rule says "always" and not "until it exceeds hit dice" so the rules does not defines which way to go and since the second rule is written just afterwards and says "always" by opposite of "until it stops being nonassociated" it could be easily interpreted as meaning that it is truly always.
I think that if they wanted to say that npc class levels can become associated then they would write "Levels in NPC classes are all treated as nonassociated." instead of using always
zlefin
2019-03-22, 04:16 PM
it has 0 original hite dice, not _ original hit dice.
the wording is indeed done poorly; that's a common occurrence.
imo it's pretty clear what they meant; or at least what the behavior is supposed to be.
in context it's just that npc classes always default to unassociated regardless of whether they fit what the monster does or not.
it's not reasonable to assume they would've said it another way if that was their specific intent, because they quite clearly just didn't edit the section very carefully, nor did they test it carefully, given how thoroughly people have proven there are substantial flaws in the balance of the whole section; many of which become apparent with even simple testing.
there's probably also a section somewhere which specifically says how to handle npc classed foes.
it has 0 original hite dice, not _ original hit dice.
the wording is indeed done poorly; that's a common occurrence.
imo it's pretty clear what they meant; or at least what the behavior is supposed to be.
in context it's just that npc classes always default to unassociated regardless of whether they fit what the monster does or not.
it's not reasonable to assume they would've said it another way if that was their specific intent, because they quite clearly just didn't edit the section very carefully, nor did they test it carefully, given how thoroughly people have proven there are substantial flaws in the balance of the whole section; many of which become apparent with even simple testing.
nope I am not a level 0 barbarian and a level 0 dragon and a level 0 wizard and a level 0 everything except for one class with each of my characters.
You are wrong: level 0 grants benefits unlike not having a level for example level 0 in a class or 0 rhd gives +2 in each strong saves and also make you count as having the class skills in one of your classes(thus raising the cap on the skills due to multiclassing rules) and also gives you all the class features that does not specify a minimum class level.
People do not have 0 rhd before getting hit dice or class levels they have _ rhd because 0 levels or 0 rhd grants benefits over not having class levels or not having rhd.
Not having something is not having 0 of it: an undead have no con score and thanks to that is not dead of having a con score of 0 and there is a difference between a level 0 risen martyr and someone who does not have levels in risen martyr.
Finally nearly all the npc classes are strictly worse than rhd (except adept and even then a monster with adept levels is not that much threatening) so saying "now I am going to make them progress cr faster" is just the worst balance decision especially since monsters based on having tons of hd are already among the least threatening monsters.
zlefin
2019-03-22, 06:24 PM
you're free to believe what you want; but please don't confuse things for the op who asked for help by pushing your unusual interpretation.
you can't have 0 levels in a class, or a racial hit die.
your argument from balance doesn't matter at all, since we already know the cr system is messed up anyways for the whole improving monsters section.
the system is quite clear that hte guidelinse are just that, guidelines, and no matter what they say, eyeball the final result and compare to other monsters to tweak the CR as needed.
you're free to believe what you want; but please don't confuse things for the op who asked for help by pushing your unusual interpretation.
you can't have 0 levels in a class, or a racial hit die.
your argument from balance doesn't matter at all, since we already know the cr system is messed up anyways for the whole improving monsters section.
the system is quite clear that hte guidelinse are just that, guidelines, and no matter what they say, eyeball the final result and compare to other monsters to tweak the CR as needed.
No you can.
Go read the risen martyr from the book of exalted deeds.
KillianHawkeye
2019-03-24, 08:55 AM
Pretty sure you're just willfully misreading the rules at this point. Stop trolling, noob!
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