Repeatable Radiant Damage

[Aubri]

I'm playing in a campaign where we're heading into an undead-heavy section, and our party is kind of really light on the radiant spells (hah!) that would otherwise be useful for, say, shutting down a vampire spawn's regeneration so the party DPS can bring it down. I'm looking for some clever suggestions, if there's anything I haven't thought of yet.

To start off, our party (currently 3rd level):

Swashbuckler Rogue (Me!)
Life Cleric
Wizard (I don't remember which school)
Eldritch Knight
Moon Druid


I know the cleric and druid can prep a few useful spells, but that's kind of the issue -- the cleric is... er... let's call him "buff-optimized". He doesn't even have any attack cantrips, and probably wouldn't hit with them very reliably if he did. The druid can drop an occasional Moonbeam, but prefers to wild shape in battle. One-shot spells are okay as a "gap filler" but they'll run out fast if the battle goes past a few rounds.

I know Holy Water is a standby, and I intend to get some when I can, but I can't rely on that turn after turn. Holy Weapon is a tailor-made solution, but 5th level spells are a long, long way off. We can call that the cutoff, though -- let's only consider spells of level 4 or lower. Magic items are on the table, but again, let's cut off at Rare since, you know, Sun Blade, Mace of Disruption...

I'm already planning to suggest comboing Spirit Guardians with assorted mobility-hampering spells (Entangle, Grease, Web, wild shape: dire wolf, you know the drill.) So: anyone got any other bright ideas?

[ImproperJustice]

Does the Cleric know Sacred Flame?

NVM: Just read no attack cantrips......

Hmmm.
Well, having been in a party of all fighters at that same level, I can safely say you should be able to kill the Vampire just fine without radiant damage, it just may take a little longer.

[bc56]

There's a 1st level cleric spell that rarely sees use called Divine Favor.
It gives the caster an extra 1d4 radiant damage on their weapon attacks for a minute.

[Xihirli]

I assume it’s too late for anyone to go Aasimar?

[Sirithhyando]

Talk to the DM if you could buy a "toned-down" Sun blade? One without the + to hit and dmg and maybe only +1d4 radiant.
He could decide you can find it (or buy it) somewhere.

[Zanthy1]

Spirit Guardians is the only spell you'll need, but since you aren't high enough level for that yet....git gud?

But for realzies, Divine Favor and Moonbeam are your prime choices, followed up by stockpiles of Holy Water

[OverLordOcelot]

You have a druid and cleric, you have the potential for plenty of radiant damage. If the players who have the abilities you need don't want to play well, then you need to either accept that your party is going to have a hard time, convince them to play well, or get someone who does play well to play a class that has the spells you need. I'm not usually a fan of "Git Gud" type comments, but I don't really see another option there.

BTW, why would the cleric have a hard time hitting with attack cantrips? Aside from the fact that the one you really want (Sacred Flame) is saving throw based so doesn't even use a hit roll, his chance to hit with spells is based off of his wisdom so it should be about as good as anyone else's. If he's 'buff optimized' but not increasing his wisdom, what good stats does he have?

[Corpsecandle717]

I'm also a bit confused as to why being a Moon Druid would preclude him/her from casting Moonbeam. Moonbeam + Dire Wolf is pretty good combo. I was once able to get out of a bad situation by using this combo and kiting my enemy around while the Moonbeam killed him.

[jaappleton]

A scroll of Crusader's Mantle? Divine Favor?

[Willie the Duck]

BTW, why would the cleric have a hard time hitting with attack cantrips? Aside from the fact that the one you really want (Sacred Flame) is saving throw based so doesn't even use a hit roll, his chance to hit with spells is based off of his wisdom so it should be about as good as anyone else's. If he's 'buff optimized' but not increasing his wisdom, what good stats does he have?

I am reading "buff optimized" to mean 'has Wisdom of 15 or less.' I'm guessing ASIs have gone to Resilient:Con, Warcaster, or flavorful options.


I'm playing in a campaign where we're heading into an undead-heavy section, and our party is kind of really light on the radiant spells (hah!) that would otherwise be useful for, say, shutting down a vampire spawn's regeneration so the party DPS can bring it down. I'm looking for some clever suggestions, if there's anything I haven't thought of yet.
...I'm already planning to suggest comboing Spirit Guardians with assorted mobility-hampering spells (Entangle, Grease, Web, wild shape: dire wolf, you know the drill.) So: anyone got any other bright ideas?

Well, you have suggested that, although your cleric is unsuited for the task (and thus has some level of excuse), both your cleric and druid have behaviors in interference with getting radiant damage. I think our first suggestion would be: make a strong case for them to include radiant damage when they next memorize spells and/or get new cantrips. Having one spell in the level+Wis modifier total isn't too much to ask for helping face an enemy you know you are going to face a bunch.

Otherwise, perhaps someone else (with a decent Wis) can pick up Magic Initiate? A Rogue with Magic Initiate (cleric; Guidance, Sacred Flame, Bless or Healing Word) is actually a pretty tactically bright choice anyways.
Other than that, scrolls or magic items (as suggested, maybe DM-homebrew 'lesser' items), NPC dedicated henchman (cleric, celestial warlock, or zealot barbarian), or the like would help.

[JackPhoenix]

There's a 1st level cleric spell that rarely sees use called Divine Favor.
It gives the caster an extra 1d4 radiant damage on their weapon attacks for a minute.

It's not cleric spell. Only War domain has it as domain spell, otherwise, it's paladin only.

At third level, without cantrips, the only available options are Moonbeam for the druid and Guiding Bolt for the cleric. The former is much better option, as it will last for a while, and the druid can do other things, GB will cost a spell slot for every use, making it non-viable for shutting down regeneration in a standard adventuring day (you'd run out of slots before the enemies run out of HP), even assuming the cleric has enough wisdom to get a decent hit chance.

[tieren]

Truth is the need for radiant damage is greatly over blown, virtually nothing is vulnerable to it so its not like your group won't be effective without it. (Its decent because almost nothing resists it either, but not required)

In the couple of cases where you are fighting a vampire spawn and need to shut down the regeneration, the one off spells are fine, particularly if spirit guardians is generally available.

[jaappleton]

Truth is the need for radiant damage is greatly over blown, virtually nothing is vulnerable to it so its not like your group won't be effective without it. (Its decent because almost nothing resists it either, but not required)

In the couple of cases where you are fighting a vampire spawn and need to shut down the regeneration, the one off spells are fine, particularly if spirit guardians is generally available.

I'm playing in one CoS campaign and DMing another.

As a player, I desperately want Radiant. Always. Not just for CoS, but because as you said, nearly nothing a party would typically fight is resistant to it. And what you're likely going to fight, it gets bonus stuff related to it, such as shutting down regeneration.

As the DM, I've realized that its not... It's not nearly as required as I thought. A well optimized party can deliver enough damage consistently enough to where the Regeneration of something like a Vampire Spawn shouldn't impact a battle too much (Certain encounters, especially in CoS, notwithstanding. Some of those fights aren't winnable for when the typical party would encounter them).

[OverLordOcelot]

I am reading "buff optimized" to mean 'has Wisdom of 15 or less.' I'm guessing ASIs have gone to Resilient:Con, Warcaster, or flavorful options.

I am guessing they aren't exactly overloaded with ASIs at third level since you get your first ASI at 4th :smallsmile:, so the +2 to +3 stat bonus from wisdom is about the same as everyone else has.

[Willie the Duck]

I am guessing they aren't exactly overloaded with ASIs at third level since you get your first ASI at 4th :smallsmile:, so the +2 to +3 stat bonus from wisdom is about the same as everyone else has.

Sorry, 'ASIs or Vuman feat.' Glad we clarified that. :smallamused:

[No brains]

One weird un-life hack: Use Chill Touch to fight vampires. It doesn't hurt then especially bad, but it still keeps them from healing. Does your wizard have that?

Guiding Bolt is just a normal, one-instance damage spell, but it gives advantage to the next attack against the target, so you can maybe set up a good combo with the rogue. It might not kill the vampire, but it might hurt them bad enough to make them want to back off for a while.

[Trustypeaches]

There's a 1st level cleric spell that rarely sees use called Divine Favor.
It gives the caster an extra 1d4 radiant damage on their weapon attacks for a minute.thats because it’s not a cleric spell, it’s a Paladin spell.

Only War Clerics get access to it.

[Sigreid]

When it comes to a lot of undead silver and fire are both often viable options.

Depending on the type of undead you can sometimes use the environment to make things easier. Zombies for example stand very little chance of climbing their way out of a pit, especially with you stabbing them while they try. Deadfalls to pin corporeal undead can be a good option too.

[JackPhoenix]

When it comes to a lot of undead silver and fire are both often viable options.

Depending on the type of undead you can sometimes use the environment to make things easier. Zombies for example stand very little chance of climbing their way out of a pit, especially with you stabbing them while they try. Deadfalls to pin corporeal undead can be a good option too.

Silver doesn't do anything special against most undead. Normal weapons work just as well against any undead that doesn't have a name that starts with "w" (wights, wraiths).
Mummies are vulnerable to fire, everything incorporeal (and some non-incorporeal things) is resistant, flameskull is immune. Anything else doesn't care about fire one way or the other.
Zombies climb just as well as anything else, attacks don't have any effect on the ability to climb. Their above average Str helps with difficult climbs that require ability check, their slow speed doesn't matter if the pit less than 15' deep.
Deadfalls require you to be able to prepare the battlefield up front, which generally isn't the case against undead, especially against intelligent, relatively mobile undead like vampires.

[SkipSandwich]

As a swashbucker, you probably have above average Cha, so dipping into sorc, warlock or paladin for some magical tricks isn't a terrible idea. Heck, just using your 4th level ASI to take Spell Sniper (Firebolt) could be a servicable option as well, as "kill it with fire" is a perfectly valid tactic against the majority of undead.

[Nhorianscum]

If the cleric refuses to use SW or SG ceremony is a first level ritual on the list that makes unlimited holy water a thing.

[JackPhoenix]

If the cleric refuses to use SW or SG ceremony is a first level ritual on the list that makes unlimited holy water a thing.

"Unlimited" assuming you have 5 pounds of silver for every use.

[Man_Over_Game]

"Unlimited" assuming you have 5 pounds of silver for every use.

I would actually talk to your DM about making it more efficient to make Holy Water if you have Ceremony cast, as the Holy Water states:

"A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot."

It literally describes Ceremony's effect without actually requiring Ceremony.

The only difference between casting Ceremony and just using the Holy Water ritual is the fact that other classes could cast Ceremony with Ritual Caster.

[Sigreid]

Silver doesn't do anything special against most undead. Normal weapons work just as well against any undead that doesn't have a name that starts with "w" (wights, wraiths).
Mummies are vulnerable to fire, everything incorporeal (and some non-incorporeal things) is resistant, flameskull is immune. Anything else doesn't care about fire one way or the other.
Zombies climb just as well as anything else, attacks don't have any effect on the ability to climb. Their above average Str helps with difficult climbs that require ability check, their slow speed doesn't matter if the pit less than 15' deep.
Deadfalls require you to be able to prepare the battlefield up front, which generally isn't the case against undead, especially against intelligent, relatively mobile undead like vampires.

Reality check here, we're talking about level 3 characters at the moment. They'd have very little chance against wights, wraiths and vampires regardless of what they have in the way of spells and equipment.

Zombies and to a lesser extent skeletons are not particularly bright, they can be lured.

Corporal undead in a bit with a couple of party members using reach weapons or just long sticks to shove them back down while other party members with reach or ranged weapons attack them can work pretty good.

But yes, a lot of undead can be just beat down. If you beat down a zombie, however, it can be very helpful to have a bit of fire damage to keep them from getting back up.

[JackPhoenix]

Reality check here, we're talking about level 3 characters at the moment. They'd have very little chance against wights, wraiths and vampires regardless of what they have in the way of spells and equipment.

A single vampire spawn (mentioned in the OP) or wraith is a hard encounter for 5 level 3 characters. They should be able to face that about 3 times per adventuring day without being in significant danger of dying. A single wight is an easy fight. So it's not "very little chance", it's "the former make for a decent miniboss, the later needs some reinforcements to be interesting."


If you beat down a zombie, however, it can be very helpful to have a bit of fire damage to keep them from getting back up.

It is actually completely useless unless you roll a crit (and you don't need fire for that). Fire doesn't stop Undying Fortitude.

[Sigreid]

A single vampire spawn (mentioned in the OP) or wraith is a hard encounter for 5 level 3 characters. They should be able to face that about 3 times per adventuring day without being in significant danger of dying. A single wight is an easy fight. So it's not "very little chance", it's "the former make for a decent miniboss, the later needs some reinforcements to be interesting."



It is actually completely useless unless you roll a crit (and you don't need fire for that). Fire doesn't stop Undying Fortitude.

Must have mis-remembered I was certain it did. Ah well.

As far as the wight goes, I can't see any reason it would be alone considering it can animate dead. It should at least have some company. I was thinking vampire and not spawn though.

[Contrast]

I'm deeply confused by this thread.


our party is kind of really light on the radiant spells

This is just a factually inaccurate statement. You have multiple people in the party with easy access to to spells which cause radiant damage. I would in fact say that your party has generally speaking more access to radiant damage than most parties.

Are we equating 'don't have a paladin' to 'can't beat undead' somehow? You can buy holy water (or the cleric can use Ceremony to mass produce it) but thats pretty much always going to be less effective than one of your spellcasters just...casting a spell :smallconfused:

[JackPhoenix]

Must have mis-remembered I was certain it did. Ah well.

It's radiant or critical hit.


As far as the wight goes, I can't see any reason it would be alone considering it can animate dead. It should at least have some company. I was thinking vampire and not spawn though.

A wight and up to 5 zombies is still hard encounter. An encounter with wight and two zombies have the same adjusted XP value as a single vampire spawn (or other CR 5 creature), though I would say the vampire makes for more interesting encounter, even 1 against 5, because it's intelligent (the wight is too, but the zombies, not so much), and it can use its regeneration to its favor to make hit and run attacks in an attrition battle (if terrain permits, of course). It's also more mobile thanks to the spider climb, and it's more likely to pull a successful ambush with better Stealth check and no zombies to cramp its style. The wight has the zombies and ranged attacks on its side, along with some immunities vampires lack. In the right terrain, wraith would be even worse foe than either, thanks to high flying speed combined with incorporeal movement, and while it's got only one attack, it hits hard. The resistances to most forms of damage help.

[Aubri]

BTW, why would the cleric have a hard time hitting with attack cantrips?
It's hard to hit with a cantrip you don't have.

To address those asking about the "buff-optimized" comment, the cleric rolled poorly and his highest stat (Wis) is like 14. So while spells are an option, I'm not holding my breath for him to hit consistently, either magically, physically, or save-wise.

[Aubri]

One weird un-life hack: Use Chill Touch to fight vampires. It doesn't hurt then especially bad, but it still keeps them from healing. Does your wizard have that?
I... uh. I'll have to ask. Good point, though!

[Aubri]

Reality check here, we're talking about level 3 characters at the moment. They'd have very little chance against wights, wraiths and vampires regardless of what they have in the way of spells and equipment.
FWIW, we're in Ravenloft. So we've already been fighting shadows and a vampire spawn, and I'm getting paranoid.

[Sigreid]

FWIW, we're in Ravenloft. So we've already been fighting shadows and a vampire spawn, and I'm getting paranoid.

Well then, you should be paranoid.

[Aubri]

This is just a factually inaccurate statement. You have multiple people in the party with easy access to to spells which cause radiant damage. I would in fact say that your party has generally speaking more access to radiant damage than most parties.
By all means, feel free to list all the 3rd level or lower save-for-half radiant spells I'm overlooking. I'll wait.

[Man_Over_Game]

Looks like the only real options are:

Druid: Moonbeam

Cleric: Guiding Bolt, Spirit Guardians

Additionally, the Cleric will learn a new cantrip at levels 4 and 10. So unless your Cleric is actively trying not to have attack cantrips, you get a solution in 1 level. Plus, the Cleric also gets Divine Strike, dealing Radiant Damage on a hit.

Additionally, anyone can multiclass into Divine Soul Sorcerer or Cleric to get the same solutions. Since Cantrips scale, it wouldn't even be that bad of a choice.

Lastly, Magic Initiate, into Cleric to grab Guiding Bolt, Sacred Flame, Healing Word, or Divine Favor all has a lot of value to it.

[OverLordOcelot]

It's hard to hit with a cantrip you don't have.

My distaste at making a comment that is a nice version of 'git gud' has suddenly evaporated.


To address those asking about the "buff-optimized" comment, the cleric rolled poorly and his highest stat (Wis) is like 14. So while spells are an option, I'm not holding my breath for him to hit consistently, either magically, physically, or save-wise.

So because he doesn't have the 16 a regular character would have, his spell DC is 12 instead of 13, and attack bonus is +4 instead of +5. "He hits on a 10 instead of 11" or "They save on a 9 instead of a 10" doesn't really move from 'consistent' to 'inconsistent'.

[Aubri]

All right, thanks, everyone. I guess there's not a lot I missed on the first pass. I'll keep Spectral Grasp in mind, encourage the cleric to get more shooty when the opportunity arises, and be prepared to burn a lot of resources next time it comes up.

[Lunali]

As an alternate solution to your vampire problem, Decanter of Endless Water, only uncommon and creates running water to negate their regeneration.

[Contrast]

By all means, feel free to list all the 3rd level or lower save-for-half radiant spells I'm overlooking. I'll wait.

Not clear if you mean 3rd level as in character or spells. Either way - they have access to the best spells and when you level up they will have access to better spells. I agree that if you ignore those spells then yes you have limited ways to do radiant damage. So...don't ignore those spells?

The only way you could have more radiant damage would be to have a paladin and that requires you to hit to apply (which wouldn't appear to meet your save for half criteria anyway).

[Sigreid]

Something that hasn't been said yet. In CoS, all the tools you need to have a chance are there, if you can find them.