Bard/Dread Witch. Should I add Shadowcraft mage?

[Hiro Quester]

Playing in a lowish magic game, somewhat unoptimized large party (8 players, but middle-aged guys with busy lives and families, so only 5 or 6 of us can play most games).

Mostly core game. DM allows some races and perhaps PrCs from other books. But he is very wary of letting us get too overpowered, in a game with this many PCs. Playing some classsic ADD modules updated to 3.5, that he has DMed for other groups. He doesn’t want to have to re-write every encounter to adjust for overpowered characters. (Our last campaign with him we were totally overpowered, with stats in the 40s and many bonus feats. It was fun, but very difficult to keep challenges challenging. Lesson learned.)

DM limits the number of buff spells, so a 6th level character can have only 6 levels of spells active on them, so a 6th level PC who has haste (3) and cat’s grace (2), can’t also be invisible (2).

For this reason, I’m paying a gnome bard as mostly face, BFC and enemy debuffer, specializing in illusions, fear spells and enchantments, plus the standard grease, glitter dust, haste, etc.

Illusion mostly, with higher DCs from gnome, spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus (illusion).

Adding levels of Dread Witch slowly (per DMs request, at levels 5, 7, 10, 13, 16) to keep party balanced and encounters controlled.

Dread Witch keeps enemies’ fear immunity from being a problem at high levels, but illusions and enchantments are going to lose relevance at higher levels, when enemies more frequently have immunity to mind-affecting and true seeing.

So, is shadowcraft mage a good complement here? Thinking of asking to add that PrC after level 12 or so.

It seems like by adding shadow partial reality to illusions and adding more reality to shadow conjuration, this will keep a bard’s illusion focus versatile and useful (at least for BFC) at higher levels. Without adding too significant amounts of power.

Fogs and wall spells and summoned creatures being up to 80% real even if enemies disbelieve in them, seems useful.

Plus the fearful empowerment of Dread Witch means I could make some shadowcraft illusions also radiate fear for extra debuffing, and making it less likely that enemies would want to interact with them.

I’d lose the higher-level bardic musics: song of freedom, inspire heroics, and higher-level inspire courage. But they seem worth a trade-off.

Has anyone played a shadowcraft mage on a Gnome Bard chassis?

Has anyone ever used Dread Witch and Shadowcraft Mage together like this?

Is there a downside i’m not seeing?


EDIT: Sublime chord is explicitly not on the table. Too powerful. (I played a bard/SC in that overpowered last campaign. DM learned his lesson about allowing me to have access to that level of power.). Is the appeal of bard with Shadowcraft only good with SC in the mix?

[Thedez]

Playing in a lowish magic game, somewhat unoptimized large party (8 players, but middle-aged guys with busy lives and families, so only 5 or 6 of us can play most games).

Mostly core game. DM allows some races and perhaps PrCs from other books. But he is very wary of letting us get too overpowered, in a game with this many PCs. Playing some classsic ADD modules updated to 3.5, that he has DMed for other groups. He doesn’t want to have to re-write every encounter to adjust for overpowered characters. (Our last campaign with him we were totally overpowered, with stats in the 40s and many bonus feats. It was fun, but very difficult to keep challenges challenging. Lesson learned.)

DM limits the number of buff spells, so a 6th level character can have only 6 levels of spells active on them, so a 6th level PC who has haste (3) and cat’s grace (2), can’t also be invisible (2).

For this reason, I’m paying a gnome bard as mostly face, BFC and enemy debuffer, specializing in illusions, fear spells and enchantments, plus the standard grease, glitter dust, haste, etc.

Illusion mostly, with higher DCs from gnome, spell focus(illusion) and greater spell focus (illusion).

Adding levels of Dread Witch slowly (per DMs request, at levels 5, 7, 10, 13, 16) to keep party balanced and encounters controlled.

Dread Witch keeps enemies’ fear immunity from being a problem at high levels, but illusions and enchantments are going to lose relevance at higher levels, when enemies more frequently have immunity to mind-affecting and true seeing.

So, is shadowcraft mage a good complement here? Thinking of asking to add that PrC after level 12 or so.

It seems like by adding shadow partial reality to illusions and adding more reality to shadow conjuration, this will keep a bard’s illusion focus versatile and useful (at least for BFC) at higher levels. Without adding too significant amounts of power.

Fogs and wall spells and summoned creatures being up to 80% real even if enemies disbelieve in them, seems useful.

Plus the fearful empowerment of Dread Witch means I could make some shadowcraft illusions also radiate fear for extra debuffing, and making it less likely that enemies would want to interact with them.

I’d lose the higher-level bardic musics: song of freedom, inspire heroics, and higher-level inspire courage. But they seem worth a trade-off.

Has anyone played a shadowcraft mage on a Gnome Bard chassis?

Has anyone ever used Dread Witch and Shadowcraft Mage together like this?

Is there a downside i’m not seeing?


EDIT: Sublime chord is explicitly not on the table. Too powerful. (I played a bard/SC in that overpowered last campaign. DM learned his lesson about allowing me to have access to that level of power.). Is the appeal of bard with Shadowcraft only good with SC in the mix?

Shadowcraft Mage is solid, but for a fear-stack build, I'd try Nightmare Spinner, and ask whether or not that first ability is a Fear *attack*, or a fear *effect*. And ask specifically what all they're consider a fear *attack,* and what they'd consider a fear *effect.* Because Fear Attacks are all Mind-Effecting. Fear Effects are not. And Fearful Empowerment isn't necessarily an attack, so I'd see if you can't get it ruled as a Fear Effect.

Failing that, I've also got something else for you. Serpent Kingdoms. Trait Removal. Hour-long casting time, so find a way to get it shortened, but if you can...That right there, in conjunction with Humanoid Essence and Spark of Life, can get you past everything but Oozes.

[Hiro Quester]

I get that Nightmare Spinner is a good addition to DW (the extra illusion spells awould be awesome). And trait removal would be a good way to keep fear relevant.

But gnome bard already has the same effect as inspire fear. And the rest just doubles down on the fear focus. Nightmare phantasm does what DW’s fearful empowerment does.

I’m looking to add versatility (getting access to conjuration and evocation spells that don’t suck if the target recognizes the illusion) and to keep the charactre’s investment in higher DC fo illusions relevant when enemies have true seeing and mind blank running.

It seems like SCM will do that. I’m looking for confirmation from anyone who has played SCM on a bard base.

[MisterKaws]

A DM scared of munchkins won't let you get Shadowcraft Mage. With that class you're basically two feats away from Shadow Miracle(Arcane Disciple+Sanctum Spell or any other Heightening trick).

[Hiro Quester]

A DM scared of munchkins won't let you get Shadowcraft Mage. With that class you're basically two feats away from Shadow Miracle(Arcane Disciple+Sanctum Spell or any other Heightening trick).

I'm very much trying not to munchkin this, buit just to keep a character focussed on illusions and enchantments relevant at higher levels.

Heightening tricks need at least access to spells higher than 6th level (max for a bard list) to get excessively ridiculous. And Shadow Miracle is way out of my range, isn't it? With the bard base I'm stuck at shadowing 5th level spells max.

[MisterKaws]

I'm very much trying not to munchkin this, buit just to keep a character focussed on illusions and enchantments relevant at higher levels.

Heightening tricks need at least access to spells higher than 6th level (max for a bard list) to get excessively ridiculous. And Shadow Miracle is way out of my range, isn't it? With the bard base I'm stuck at shadowing 5th level spells max.

Hoh.

Add Residual Magic to that then Heighten+Residual Heighten.

And dodge the book to your head. Very fast.

[Hiro Quester]

Okay, that would be rather cheesy. (Did I mention I'm trying NOT to break our game? :smallbiggrin: )

It would already require casting a Heightened Bard spell. And it's questionable whether a spell from a class that doesn't have spells of higher levels could effectively be heightened to 9th level.

RAW, it's would be hard to get past "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." So you seem only to be able to heighten a spell to the highest level you can cast, and only if you have a spell slot left at that level.

So a Shadow Miracle would be equivalently difficult as a 9th level spell (i.e. impossible). But I expect my DM would outright ban that kind of shenanigan.

And using Residual Metamagic to do it a second time, without increasing the level, would definitely get books flying.

Residual metamagic is a cool feat. I wish I had considered it for the persistomancer Bard/Sublime Chord I once played. He would have got a lot of mileage out of a second persistent spell without increased level! Doubling up on important buffs in case a targeted dispel magic takes out one. Tasty cheddar.

[Thedez]

Okay, that would be rather cheesy. (Did I mention I'm trying NOT to break our game? :smallbiggrin: )

It would already require casting a Heightened Bard spell. And it's questionable whether a spell from a class that doesn't have spells of higher levels could effectively be heightened to 9th level.

RAW, it's would be hard to get past "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." So you seem only to be able to heighten a spell to the highest level you can cast, and only if you have a spell slot left at that level.

So a Shadow Miracle would be equivalently difficult as a 9th level spell (i.e. impossible). But I expect my DM would outright ban that kind of shenanigan.

And using Residual Metamagic to do it a second time, without increasing the level, would definitely get books flying.

Residual metamagic is a cool feat. I wish I had considered it for the persistomancer Bard/Sublime Chord I once played. He would have got a lot of mileage out of a second persistent spell without increased level! Doubling up on important buffs in case a targeted dispel magic takes out one. Tasty cheddar.

I thought cheesy for bards was Channeling a Firre Eladrin...

[MisterKaws]

Okay, that would be rather cheesy. (Did I mention I'm trying NOT to break our game? :smallbiggrin: )

It would already require casting a Heightened Bard spell. And it's questionable whether a spell from a class that doesn't have spells of higher levels could effectively be heightened to 9th level.

RAW, it's would be hard to get past "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." So you seem only to be able to heighten a spell to the highest level you can cast, and only if you have a spell slot left at that level.

So a Shadow Miracle would be equivalently difficult as a 9th level spell (i.e. impossible). But I expect my DM would outright ban that kind of shenanigan.

And using Residual Metamagic to do it a second time, without increasing the level, would definitely get books flying.

Residual metamagic is a cool feat. I wish I had considered it for the persistomancer Bard/Sublime Chord I once played. He would have got a lot of mileage out of a second persistent spell without increased level! Doubling up on important buffs in case a targeted dispel magic takes out one. Tasty cheddar.

Technically, you'd be casting a 6th-level heightened 1st-level Image. Which would then be Residual-Heightened to lvl 11 when you once again cast the 6th-level heightened 1st-level Image the next level.

... Which would create 130% real Shadow Miracles. Hope they roll a 20 on that Will save, so they can enjoy another 30% of pure death :)

This class is so broken.

[Hiro Quester]

Technically, you'd be casting a 6th-level heightened 1st-level Image. Which would then be Residual-Heightened to lvl 11 when you once again cast the 6th-level heightened 1st-level Image the next level.

... Which would create 130% real Shadow Miracles. Hope they roll a 20 on that Will save, so they can enjoy another 30% of pure death :)

This class is so broken.

Wow. The point is moot, because I wouldn’t try to bring a combination that broken to our table.

But I have a lot of trouble reading residual magic and heighten spell as being able to do that. You could cast again that heightened-to-6th level Silent Image, using a 1st level slot, sure.

But doubling the heightening to 11th level seems to apply the metamagic to the already-metamagicked spell, rather that to the same 1st level spell, cast again. Residual magic does say it can do that.

Plus it’s impossible for a bard (without epic spell casting or sublime chord) to cast a spell above 6th level. And heighten spell explicitly rules out casting spells of a level higher than you can normally cast. You could not cast a spell heightened to 11th level, unless you could ordinarily cast an 11th level spell

[Zaq]

The thing that stands out to me is that using ScM on a bard chassis means that you’re getting the downsides of bard (i.e., 6th level casting) and not the upsides (i.e., bardic music and skills), at least not beyond what you bring with you when you PrC away from bard. Also, doesn’t ScM demand a fair number of feats? Do you have the feat space available?

A lot will depend on the specifics of the build. Maybe you’ve got plenty of musical tricks by the time you start looking at dread witch and ScM and you’re cool with losing the skill points and the musical progression. That’s entirely legitimate, if true. While I hate losing skill points on a skill-heavy character, there does come a point where you’ve got enough to crush most non-opposed rolls, and you can usually keep your opposed rolls up with your few skill points from the non-skill-heavy class you dipped into. There does also come a point where you’ve got the musical effects you care about covered. It’s not always a dealbreaker.

I do understand that you’re intentionally holding back the power level, which is why you’re not just entering as an illusionist or a sorcerer (or a beguiler). Still, it is a noticeable inefficiency, so it’s worth that quick “are you sure?” moment. And if you’re cool with that inefficiency, then godspeed.

[Hiro Quester]

The thing that stands out to me is that using ScM on a bard chassis means that you’re getting the downsides of bard (i.e., 6th level casting) and not the upsides (i.e., bardic music and skills), at least not beyond what you bring with you when you PrC away from bard. Also, doesn’t ScM demand a fair number of feats? Do you have the feat space available?

A lot will depend on the specifics of the build. Maybe you’ve got plenty of musical tricks by the time you start looking at dread witch and ScM and you’re cool with losing the skill points and the musical progression. That’s entirely legitimate, if true. While I hate losing skill points on a skill-heavy character, there does come a point where you’ve got enough to crush most non-opposed rolls, and you can usually keep your opposed rolls up with your few skill points from the non-skill-heavy class you dipped into. There does also come a point where you’ve got the musical effects you care about covered. It’s not always a dealbreaker.

I do understand that you’re intentionally holding back the power level, which is why you’re not just entering as an illusionist or a sorcerer (or a beguiler). Still, it is a noticeable inefficiency, so it’s worth that quick “are you sure?” moment. And if you’re cool with that inefficiency, then godspeed.

That is a good point. The 4+int skill points do hurt, when I’m used to more skill points. But it’s better than the 2+int from levels in Dread Witch. Those really do hurt.

Losing bardic music progression sucks a little. But after Bard 9, the new music effects are meh. Mass suggestion is nice, itbut there’s also a spell for that.

But the prerequisites aren’t heavy. Skill focus illusion (which is useful enough that I’ve taken anyway) and 4 ranks in hide and bluff. The bluff is covered anyway, and it doesn’t hurt to be able to hide.

But it is a cosncern that the power of partially-real illusions may not be enough to offset the lower hit points, lower skill points,and fewer uses of bardic music I’d be trading off.

Is there another way for a bard/dread witch, whose spells are mostly illusions, fear, and enchantments (plus grease, glitterdust, haste etc.) to stay relevant and useful at higher levels when enemies all have true seeing and mind blank running?

[Thedez]

Dispel magic. Greater Dispel magic. UMD for Disjunction. Get a way to get AMF on your spell-list and grab Extraordinary Spell-Aim. Laugh maniacally as the only thing that truly doesn't fear you are oozes, constructs, and undead, all of which you have work-arounds for.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Shadowcraft Mage is solid, but for a fear-stack build, I'd try Nightmare Spinner, and ask whether or not that first ability is a Fear *attack*, or a fear *effect*. And ask specifically what all they're consider a fear *attack,* and what they'd consider a fear *effect.* Because Fear Attacks are all Mind-Effecting. Fear Effects are not. And Fearful Empowerment isn't necessarily an attack, so I'd see if you can't get it ruled as a Fear Effect.

Does it matter if it's Mind-Effecting? Greater Master of Terror says that your fear effects work on creatures normally immune to fear, but I'm guessing you're saying that it doesn't cover immunity to fear via immunity to mind-effecting, not "your Fear spells work on all creatures."

[MisterKaws]

Wow. The point is moot, because I wouldn’t try to bring a combination that broken to our table.

But I have a lot of trouble reading residual magic and heighten spell as being able to do that. You could cast again that heightened-to-6th level Silent Image, using a 1st level slot, sure.

But doubling the heightening to 11th level seems to apply the metamagic to the already-metamagicked spell, rather that to the same 1st level spell, cast again. Residual magic does say it can do that.

Plus it’s impossible for a bard (without epic spell casting or sublime chord) to cast a spell above 6th level. And heighten spell explicitly rules out casting spells of a level higher than you can normally cast. You could not cast a spell heightened to 11th level, unless you could ordinarily cast an 11th level spell

Only read it now so answering it now:

You're only casting a 6th level spell. All else is on residual magic.

And actually, on a totally unrelated side note. I just noticed this is forcefully 100% supported by the Spirit Shaman, which adds the spells to their spell list already metamagicked.


If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day. For example, a spirit shaman might choose to retrieve an empowered fl ame strike by using a 6th-level spell retrieved slot. Any time she uses flame strike during the ensuing day, she must use a 6th-level spell slot to cast it, and it is always empowered.

Hmm... maybe I should make a Spirit Shaman Shadowcraft Mage...

Now to find a way to cast shadow spells and Images as a Druid.