Centaurs, Lances and Mounted Combat Feats

[Wolfswift]

Playing in a game, another player made a dracotaur, a crazy level adjusted draconic centaur like race. She said she'd played tabletop RPGs before, but it seems like she's probably pretty inexperienced. She (presumably) saw the Spirited Charge feat and how it grants double damage during a mounted combat charge or triple with a Lance and ran with it. She's been averaging like 70 damage with her huge strength score from crazy level adjustment. DM allowed it but is now regretting it and no one knows the legality of this nor how to break it to her gently without angering her.(she has a tendency to take everything personally and just drop games when upset)

The other thing is when she overruns an enemy her "mount" gets a hoof attack to trample the enemy but as she has no hoof attack, she's just been using a tail attack at x2 damage for spirited charge. And everyone is pretty sure she shouldn't get the rider and the mount's attacks...

So my questions are...

1. Does anyone know the legality of this?

2. Does anyone know a way to fix it gently without making it seem too personal? I know that's less RPG advice and more life advice, but still...

[liquidformat]

So this one is kind of goofy since the best reference point is the centaur and everything we have to refer to is specific to the centaur. But here it goes anyways, it says in one of the books... I believe Races of Faerun though away from books so don't quote me that Centaurs can benefit from spirited charge as if they are mounted and qualify for it without the mounted combat feats, or something to that affect. So it seems reasonable to allow her to take spirited charge though that would be house rule. Remember in the end this is similar to her taking an la race with similar stats and having a mount so there isn't much of a difference if monster races are already on the table.

Similarly for trample Races of the wild has Centaur Trample which allows the centaur to make a hoof attack with an over run. As such it is reasonable to let her get a hoof attack if she has trample feat (again able to take it without prerequisites). However, the whole double damage from spirited charge thing doesn't fly because an overrun isn't a charge...

With the exception of taking double damage on the trample most of what you are seeing is really just the fact that mounted combat can be very powerful when optimized around. Uber charging is a popular choice for a reason and this build is a decent example of why. If you are going to allow a centaur or centaur like creatures into the game it is reasonable for them to function how they are supposed to that is part of the reason they have an LA, though that LA may or may not be reasonable depending on the general power of the table.

Also what level are you guys playing at? I would imagine with +5 LA she is pretty much a glass canon and anything level appropriate should pretty much be one shotting her...

[Wolfswift]

We started at 3rd level and DM let her have 3 class levels on top of the LA. She's just not getting another level until the rest of the party is 9. But she one shots everything so there usually isn't anything to hit her. One thing did and hurt her pretty bad.

Another problem is this DM never uses a map, I've advocated for a map recently, but he still never uses walls, corners, obstacles, difficult terrain or any limiters, so it appears we're always fighting on a perfectly flat plane.

[Resileaf]

Well if you ask me, that's mostly a GMing problem in that case. If she has no obstacles put in her way and she's always acting in optimal conditions, it's only normal that her optimized attacks are always doing well. You'll have to convince your GM to give her some obstacles so that things aren't always that easy.

[Blue Jay]

So this one is kind of goofy since the best reference point is the centaur and everything we have to refer to is specific to the centaur. But here it goes anyways, it says in one of the books... I believe Races of Faerun though away from books so don't quote me that Centaurs can benefit from spirited charge as if they are mounted and qualify for it without the mounted combat feats, or something to that affect. So it seems reasonable to allow her to take spirited charge though that would be house rule. Remember in the end this is similar to her taking an la race with similar stats and having a mount so there isn't much of a difference if monster races are already on the table.

The zelekhut in the Monster Manual has a sentence that says "due to its centaur-like construction, it qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat." That's got to be a serious editorial oversight that zelekhuts get that and other "taur" types don't.

I've always wanted to play a centaur scout that could make use of ther Mounted Archery feats. Of course, qualifying for mounted feats is one thing, but being treated as a mounted combatant while using them mightbe a little more dicey.

[Kayblis]

It's a general case of not understanding what LA means. You have a level 8 character in a level 3 party, no wonder you have a problem in your hands. The point of LA is to adjust monsters to a more balanced level of play, what your group did is giving all the benefits with no drawbacks at all.

[Crake]

It's a general case of not understanding what LA means. You have a level 8 character in a level 3 party, no wonder you have a problem in your hands. The point of LA is to adjust monsters to a more balanced level of play, what your group did is giving all the benefits with no drawbacks at all.

That's not necessarily true. She's not getting any levels until far later, which is a significant over-time drawback, though the REAL question is, is she getting less xp because she's level 8 while the rest of the party is level 3? That would slow down her level gain even FURTHER. Alternatively, you could use the, I think from races of faerun, alternate level adjustment rules where you can start at the same "level" as the rest of the party, but you get "negative levels" equal to your level adjustment, and as you "level up" through your LA, you remove them one by one.

[Kayblis]

That's not necessarily true. She's not getting any levels until far later, which is a significant over-time drawback, though the REAL question is, is she getting less xp because she's level 8 while the rest of the party is level 3? That would slow down her level gain even FURTHER. Alternatively, you could use the, I think from races of faerun, alternate level adjustment rules where you can start at the same "level" as the rest of the party, but you get "negative levels" equal to your level adjustment, and as you "level up" through your LA, you remove them one by one.

That's not true at all. If you start as a level 8 character in a level 3 group and only gets your 9th level when everyone else does, you haven't been penalized in any way - on every single session for the whole game you're either (1)Much stronger than you should be(levels 3~7) OR (2)Just as strong as you should be(levels 8 and above). You haven't given any penalty, only the good parts.

It's the same case as if you started out max level in a new game, because "everyone will reach max level eventually". It's a dumb way to balance stuff, you're just giving an advantage with no drawbacks.

[liquidformat]

We started at 3rd level and DM let her have 3 class levels on top of the LA. She's just not getting another level until the rest of the party is 9. But she one shots everything so there usually isn't anything to hit her. One thing did and hurt her pretty bad.

Another problem is this DM never uses a map, I've advocated for a map recently, but he still never uses walls, corners, obstacles, difficult terrain or any limiters, so it appears we're always fighting on a perfectly flat plane.

dracotaur has 3 rhd, if she is also getting 3 class levels then you have the equivolent of a 11th level pc with 3rd level characters, that is your issue right their. The issue is you need to have everyone at the same ecl...

[Crake]

That's not true at all. If you start as a level 8 character in a level 3 group and only gets your 9th level when everyone else does, you haven't been penalized in any way - on every single session for the whole game you're either (1)Much stronger than you should be(levels 3~7) OR (2)Just as strong as you should be(levels 8 and above). You haven't given any penalty, only the good parts.

It's the same case as if you started out max level in a new game, because "everyone will reach max level eventually". It's a dumb way to balance stuff, you're just giving an advantage with no drawbacks.

Getting significantly less xp and having nothing to look forward too for a LONG time is a penalty. Don't get me wrong, the DM likely screwed up big time, but the damage is already done. Still, you're saying she's getting no penalty, which is demonstrably false.

[lilpest]

We started at 3rd level and DM let her have 3 class levels on top of the LA. She's just not getting another level until the rest of the party is 9.

Well, there's the problem, LA is not supposed to work like that. Having twice as many hit dice as the rest of the party might cause an issue. With 3 class levels she's be ECL11 using the printed LA(though I'd suggest using the +1 from the LA Assignment Thread because it's much more reasonable and LA is just "MONSTERS AREN'T FOR PCs", but with 3 class levels she'd still be ECL 7 in a level 3 party). The other problem is she shouldn't be able to have prereq less spirited charge since Dracotaur does not have the wording allowing it that centaur has. And a charge build shouldn't be hard to disrupt if it's being game warping.

[Blue Jay]

The other problem is she shouldn't be able to have prereq less spirited charge since Dracotaur does not have the wording allowing it that centaur has. And a charge build shouldn't be hard to disrupt if it's being game warping.

One thing to note is that Races of Faerun (the source of the rule the lets centaurs take Spirited Charge without prereqs) actually predates the 3.5 Monster Manual, and its centaur differed in several minor ways from the centaur that appeared in the MM:
Centaurs can take Spirited Charge and Trample without prereqs
A centaur's hooves can be used as primary weapons (the MM has them as secondary only; and the MM doesn't list the hooves at all in the "Centaurs as Characters" list)
+2 natural armor (MM gives them +3; I believe +2 was the 3.0 value)
Centaurs can qualify for the Arcane Archer PrC (DMG has it only available to elves and half-elves)
The LA was given as +3 (it's +2 in the Monster Manual)

So, it's debatable that the centaur entry in RoF is considered "official" rules. The Monster Manual is both the primary source and the more recent publication, and the even-more recent publication Races of the Wild repeats the MM stat block exactly (including the lack of hoof attacks for PC centaurs), so it's highly likely that the RoF centaur is deprecated by RAW.

That said, the zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut) did get the ruling that it qualifies for feats as if it had Mounted Combat, and it was directly attributed to its "centaur-like construction," so it seems only fair that all creatures with a centaur-like construction get the same benefit. My group didn't buy that though, so my centaur archer doesn't get to have Mounted Archery.

[Jay R]

A mounted fighter should be OP compared to fighters on foot -- in an open, flat field.

The balancing factor is up to the DM, and involves having some (not all) battles, in corridors, caves, jungles, swamps, and other places where you can't charge. Also some enemies should be behind walls or trees where they can't be charged into.

A study of historic battles shows that a horse's charge is supposed to be devastating. It is also not always usable. [At Waterloo, there was a devastating charge on the opposing cannons. But since the cavalry had no spikes, they were soon driven off, and the cannons continued to be used.]

[Wolfswift]

There are some good points here. I will talk to my DM again about using more varied terrain. While many brought up that the character is too strong due to crazy level adjustment and DM grace with granting her 3 class levels on top, I'm/we're very aware of that. But I/we also know that taking it away now is likely to upset her.

The group is leveling quickly, GM hands out XP like candy, we just reached 6th level, so fairly soon she'll be back on track for ECL. That said, this DM is more concerned about the story than the mechanics, he hand waives most things just wanting players to play whatever they'll enjoy. He's admitted to not fully understanding or utilizing the mechanics and says it's fine so long as we can all build a good narrative together.

I plan to try my hand at DMing soon myself, so I can use all the rules to their fullest and show people how much fun the game can be when you actually get challenged.

[Jay R]

Another potential balancer is to buy, and learn to ride, a horse.