Lowering the CR of a Drider Encounter

[Blackjack488]

So...relatively early on in my game, I have an encounter planned where the players are raiding a goblin camp, and encounter an enemy much more threatening than the goblins. From a lore perspective, this is a drider (and yeah, it does have to be a drider. Or some kind of carnivorous demihuman) basically strong-arming the goblins into bringing it humanoid-shaped food or else it eats them. From a gameplay perspective, this is basically a test of teamwork and tactics: you're suddenly in a bad situation, caught off-guard, and need to find a way to sort things out while in the heat of battle.

The problem is that, at that point, my players are gonna be around 2nd or 3rd level, and a Drider has a CR of 8.

I want it to be a bad situation and a serious challenge, but I don't want this enemy to immediately TPK everyone in a single round. So if anyone can think of a good way to reduce the CR of a Drider (or similar demihuman) to something more like 3 or 4, it'd be a huge help! ^^

Here's what I have so far:

Large Monstrosity, chaotic evil
AC: 15
HP: 4d8+15 (35)
Speed: 25ft, 25ft climbing

14 STR (+2), 13 DEX (+1), 16 CON (+3), 12 INT (+1), 14 WIS (+2), 10 CHA (0)

Saving Throws: Con +2
Skills: Perception +3, Stealth +5
Damage Vulnerabilities: Bludgeoning
Damage Resistances: Poison
Languages: Common, Goblin
Challenge: 4 (1100 XP)

Traits
Spider Climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.

Actions
Action Surge: On its turn, the drider may sacrifice its reaction to take a second action.
Bite: Melee Weapon Attack, +2 to hit, reach 5ft, one creature. Hit: 1d4 piercing damage plus 2d4 poison damage.
Short Sword: Melee Weapon Attack, +4 to hit, reach 5ft, one target. Hit: 1d8+3 slashing damage. One-handed.
Web Shot: Ranged Spell, one target, range 30ft, 17 DC. Target must make a Dexterity Saving Throw or be restrained for 1 hour. Restrained targets can break free with a Strength Check against the spell DC.

Commentary and criticism are extremely welcome!

[Man_Over_Game]

It's not too terribly bad.

I'd probably make it an "Old Drider", which is why it's resorting to pushing around goblins rather than something scarier.

Drop its HP to about 25, reduce the AC to 14, drop the damage to be about 7 per attack if you ditch the Action Surge, or drop the damage down to 4-5 if you want to keep it, drop the DCs to be a max of 13-14.

I'd say that's a much more reasonable target to fight against.

For some comparisons, a level 2 character has an average of 18 HP, and assuming they have proficiency on a Saving Throw, they probably have a +4 bonus to save , which translates to about a 50% chance to succeed against DC 14, or a 35% chance if they don't have Proficiency.

A level 2 character deals about 10 damage per turn, assuming it hits every attack. They'll have about a +5 to hit, so they'll hit about 50% of the time against an AC 14. If players focus on killing it, it might take about 5 consecutive turns with these stats, assuming they aren't being swarmed by goblins.

[Blackjack488]

Mmkay. That should sort out my issue. I'm just not too familiar with balancing homebrew enemies like this, so I wanted to get the input of someone who was. Thanks for the tips! ^^

As for why it's doing what it's doing...it's a little complicated, and ties into the lore of this world. But the short answer is that it isn't created from Drow by Lolth, and is instead more like an amalgamation of creatures that popped up in the wilderness. Similar appearance, different origin. XD

[J-H]

That thing could be two-shotted by a paladin, swashbuckler rogue, or anyone else with level-appropriate bonus damage. It's already weak enough in my eyes. The big threat is the web, and that's nonlethal so it's ok.
If anything, the attack bonus is too low (but then, my wife's party's ACs are 19, 19, and 15).

[Man_Over_Game]

That thing could be two-shotted by a paladin, swashbuckler rogue, or anyone else with level-appropriate bonus damage. It's already weak enough in my eyes. The big threat is the web, and that's nonlethal so it's ok.
If anything, the attack bonus is too low (but then, my wife's party's ACs are 19, 19, and 15).

I guess that brings up the other question. What fight is this supposed to be in the day?

A level 2 character isn't going to have hardly any resources after the second fight in the day. If this thing is surrounded by Goblins, you can afford to lower its effectiveness a bit.

As J-H said, if you have it as the only encounter of the day, you can afford to beef up its survivability and its damage a bit, as the players will be fighting at maximum capacity. If they're not, my example is a bit safer, especially if they have to deal with the goblins at the same time.

[J-H]

I would add an "aid another" type clause on escaping from the web-someone outside the web can use an action to cut it off of the trapped target.

[Xihirli]

Reasons a Drider can be weaker than the standard:
Just molted
Its natural armor is butt right now
Young
It tried to become a priestess of Lolth at age six or so. Now its body is preserved in that vulnerable state.
Just ran away from a different fight
Low on hit points, maybe has two levels of exhaustion.

[JackPhoenix]

What do you mean by "demihuman"? That term didn't apply to driders even back when it was in use.

Would something more level appropriate by default work? Ogre or ettin is roughly humanoid and would propably eat people, so would hill giant or a troll at higher CR. Lycanthropes could work too.

[Unoriginal]

If you want a Spider-type monster, why not an Ettercap?

[Galithar]

What do you mean by "demihuman"? That term didn't apply to driders even back when it was in use.

Would something more level appropriate by default work? Ogre or ettin is roughly humanoid and would propably eat people, so would hill giant or a troll at higher CR. Lycanthropes could work too.

"Demihuman is a term used to refer to those whose basic physical appearance is humanoid but includes distinctively non-human elements. "

How does that 'not apply to a drider? It is actually the most accurate one word description possible.

To answer the original, since a full Drider would be too powerful find an appropriate CR creature with similar abilities and the reskin it as an aged or otherwise impaired Drider that preys on the Goblins. In my bestiary I was thinking a Phase spider without the ethereal jaunt and probably toning it's poison damage down. Maybe 1d8 +2 (1d6 poison half on a successful DC 11 Con save) if you want to crank up the danger maybe give it a multiattack, but then as DM choose to have it split those attacks between two targets. Damaging multiple players can make them feel the pressure without dropping anyone

[JackPhoenix]

"Demihuman is a term used to refer to those whose basic physical appearance is humanoid but includes distinctively non-human elements. "

How does that 'not apply to a drider? It is actually the most accurate one word description possible.

Because drider's basic physical appearance isn't humanoid. You know, with the whole "spider from the waist down" thing.

[OverLordOcelot]

Drop its HP to about 25, reduce the AC to 14, drop the damage to be about 7 per attack if you ditch the Action Surge, or drop the damage down to 4-5 if you want to keep it, drop the DCs to be a max of 13-14.

I don't recommend anything less than 50-75 HP if you want it to feel like a major enemy. The 25-35 HP being tossed around will feel incredibly weak, it will take the party almost no time to take down and puts the creature into easy one-shot range. When you're fighting a big enemy and someone manages a crit on inflict wounds for 6D10 or a paladin smite for 4D6 + 2D8 and it just drops dead in no time, it's going to be just a paper tiger. Reducing the damage and AC will work fine, lower damage keeps the party from just getting wiped out during the big fight, while lower AC makes it less likely that they'll get a run of bad luck and score no damage at all.


A level 2 character deals about 10 damage per turn, assuming it hits every attack. They'll have about a +5 to hit, so they'll hit about 50% of the time against an AC 14. If players focus on killing it, it might take about 5 consecutive turns with these stats, assuming they aren't being swarmed by goblins.

You really screwed up the math here - 5 consecutive turns is what you'd expect if you had ONE character who does 10 damage per hit and hits 50% of the time. If a group of 3-4 focus fires, you expect it to die early in the second round. If a group of 6-7 does, it's probably going to drop before everyone even gets an attack.