Surprise and Ambush

[Yora]

The surprise rules in the PHB just look wrong to me.

Both sides automatically noticing each other if neither side is using Stealth doesn't feel right. Say the party is travelling overland and is running into wandering monsters. There is a very good chance that either they or the monsters spot the other in the distance well before they are spotted themselves, giving them time to lie down or hide behind something, either to wait until the other group is gone or to set up an ambush.

Even inside dungeons, I think the chance of both sides noticing each other at the same time should be very small.

And while the rules for surprise don't mention it, attacks against a surprised creature that can't act or move during the first round probably should have advantage.

Are there any other commonly used alternative rules to deal with this?

[Torpin]

just take it as it is. sometimes rules are just there to make it easier

[stoutstien]

The surprise rules in the PHB just look wrong to me.

Both sides automatically noticing each other if neither side is using Stealth doesn't feel right. Say the party is travelling overland and is running into wandering monsters. There is a very good chance that either they or the monsters spot the other in the distance well before they are spotted themselves, giving them time to lie down or hide behind something, either to wait until the other group is gone or to set up an ambush.

Even inside dungeons, I think the chance of both sides noticing each other at the same time should be very small.

And while the rules for surprise don't mention it, attacks against a surprised creature that can't act or move during the first round probably should have advantage.

Are there any other commonly used alternative rules to deal with this?
The stealth rules are vague to keep it from grinding the game to a halt every time it comes up.
Unless your entire campaign takes place in a place called Kansastan it's easy to visualize that two opposing sides may not see each other from miles away clearly. Seeing something in the distance isn't necessarily identifying it.
Then you being up to fact that unless everything in your game is a rah rah stab stab bag of xp why wouldn't 80% of the NPCs that will attack the party not be hiding in the first place? A band of goblins are not going to form a column and March towards an enemy. Especially inside a cave structure.

The advantage on surprise is an assassin subclass feature

[mephnick]

It's a gameplay mechanic to keep the session running smoothly. Having to determine who notices who first every single possible encounter even if no one is trying to be stealthy would be really annoying.

Remember, the system has to work as a game first.

[Malifice]

And while the rules for surprise don't mention it, attacks against a surprised creature that can't act or move during the first round probably should have advantage.

Assasin rogues get this ability as a class feature.

Everyone else just gets to wail on a bunch of monsters before they can act, and maybe even twice before they can act (depending on initiative results). That's much better than advantage to hit.

It goes

Step 1A (before combat): The DM determines if anyone is surprised. To be surprised you must be unaware of any threat when initiative is called. Notice a single threat, and you arent surprised.
Steb 1b: Initiative is rolled.
Step 2: Turns are taken in initiative order. Surprised creatures cant move or act on turn 1, and cant take reactions until after their first turn ends.

So many DMs screw this up and roll attacks before determining initiative. It's my pet hate.

[Tanarii]

There are several posters on this forum that allow perception checks just to notice an unbidden enemy long before the surprise check stealth checks from an ambush would occur.

I cant remember for sure, but I'd guess if one side spots the other but not vice versa, that's when they allow an attempted ambush.

As opposed to the more standard way, which is typically handled something akin to the old fashion surprise check, but based on stealth instead of random.

[mephnick]

Also remember that surprise is handled individually and even though a character isn't surprised, he still may not be aware of an attacker and the attacker would have advantage on an attack made from stealth. I think this is the part that confuses new DMs which is what happens when 4 out of 7 goblins are noticed by 3 out of 5 people in the party.

[Turkish323]

What about passive stealth? Its supported by RAW.

[Malifice]

There are several posters on this forum that allow perception checks just to notice an unbidden enemy long before the surprise check stealth checks from an ambush would occur.

I cant remember for sure, but I'd guess if one side spots the other but not vice versa, that's when they allow an attempted ambush.

As opposed to the more standard way, which is typically handled something akin to the old fashion surprise check, but based on stealth instead of random.

Man, most of my encounter beginnings are just narrated:

PCs: We push on down the Northern hallway in formation.
Me: OK, the hallway continues on for around 50'; before opening up into a large chamber (quick description of chamber). In the middle of the room around 50' away from you, you see half a dozen Orcs turning to look in your direction. They grab axes, snarl war cries and leap forward to attack! Roll initiative.

If one of the PCs wanted to sneak down the hallway to scout it out, Id simply ask them to roll a D20 behind my screen (they dont get to see the result) for their stealth check, look at the result, open my eyes wide, pretend to look worried for the player (regardless of the result - showmanship is part of the job of the DM IMO), pause for a few seconds and then narrate the above either exactly the same scene (if they failed the check) or have the Orcs sitting around a table ignorant of the PC if they made it (beat the Orcs passive perception).

I usually have a pretty good idea of what encounters the PCs are going to face in a session (unless the Players go off script, or do something I hadnt foreseen in which case, improvisation is the key).

[Merudo]

Also remember that surprise is handled individually and even though a character isn't surprised, he still may not be aware of an attacker and the attacker would have advantage on an attack made from stealth.

It doesn't help that the rule is horribly written:


Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised

It could be read two ways:


If there exists a threat that is not noticed by a player, that player is surprised ("doesn't notice" "a threat")
If a player doesn't notice any threat, that player is surprised ("doesn't" "notice a threat")


According to Jeremy Crawford (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/557817071590178816) the correct answer is #2.

[Samayu]

Say the party is travelling overland and is running into wandering monsters. There is a very good chance that either they or the monsters spot the other in the distance well before they are spotted themselves, giving them time to lie down or hide behind something, either to wait until the other group is gone or to set up an ambush.

First, you have to roll perception checks, to see who sees whom first. And there isn't really a good rule for this sort of thing. As GM, you've got to adjudicate this, and you're probably going to say that either
one group is in a position to see the other group first, at which point they can make stealth checks to hide or ambush
or
they both just see each other at the same time.

Otherwise it's an exercise in "but elves have better eyesight than goblins," and "yeah, but you're wearing shiny armor and they're camouflaged with dirt."

[djreynolds]

A DM could give disadvantage if the ambush is hasty or advantage if planned and camoflauged.

A party may have to make successful stealth and other checks to succeed being unseen. Perhaps a survival or nature check to achieve being camoflauged.

Also it depends on what the party is doing moving from point A to point B. Focusing on spotting foes, window licking, etc. This affects perception.

Often well made party/characters will spot an ambush, as a DM it sucks, but not for the player who has invested in a good perception ability.

[Keravath]

Interpreting how a combat starts is up to the DM.

There are two options:
1) Neither side has sufficient tactical advantage to be considered surprised.
2) One side or the other is completely unnoticed thus granting surprise.

Consider this ... it takes a fraction of a second to yell "Watch out, attackers on the left". As soon as folks hear that, they are looking around, preparing and are aware there is a threat. Unless you are in a situation where one side can actually execute their attacks without the other side noticing then you probably don't have surprise which is why it happens so seldom.

If one side can set up an ambush then one side will likely get a surprise round if they aren't noticed.

Initiatives are rolled, the surprised side can't take an action on their first turn and they won't have reactions available until after their first turn. This seems reasonable.

A fighter runs out from behind cover, runs 30' to attack a surprised opponent, the opponent sees them coming, hauls their weapon out of its sheathe if they don't have it to hand already and prepares to defend. If their initiative was higher they lost their turn, if their initiative is after the attack then they are just recovering from the unexpected attack. Either way the fighter shouldn't have advantage on the attack since the defender is aware and has had time to prepare.

On the other hand, if the attack had come from a hidden ranged attacker then it would have been at advantage since the attacker was hidden before the attack (which would have been part of setting up the ambush).

However, without some sort of preparation, the odds of two groups within a combat range of ~120' which could see each other not actually noticing each other within a small time frame are very small. Both sides are going to see each other if not at exactly the same time then within a few seconds. Both sides may need to pull out weapons, get ready to attack, rush in or take cover. All of these factor into the basic scenario without a surprise round. In my opinion, it is a simplification but honestly not horribly unrealistic.