Empowered Shadow Blade

[Zetram]

My DM and I are in disagreement about whether Empowered Spell can effect every hit of a Shadow Blade. Initially he said it didn't work because the spell is what creates the blade not the damage. I left it alone, because I didn't want to go back and forth during a session.

However after looking into the spell more I have a few points that I think are in my favor:

1) It's illusion not conjuration, so damage is created by the spell but in the illusionary shape of a sword, instead of creating an actual sword

2) It's concentration so obviously my PC must be actively doing something to keep the sword up, no reason she should be able to boost its power when needed.


What do you guys think? Are there any more points for or against me?

EDIT: Yes. To clarify, I don't mean burn 2 sorc points and continuously have the effect as long as the spell is up. I mean every time I hit I should have the option to burn points to re-roll.

[LudicSavant]

My DM and I are in disagreement about whether Empowered Spell can effect every hit of a Shadow Blade. Initially he said it didn't work because the spell is what creates the blade not the damage. I left it alone, because I didn't want to go back and forth during a session.

However after looking into the spell more I have a few points that I think are in my favor:

1) It's illusion not conjuration, so damage is created by the spell but in the illusionary shape of a sword, instead of creating an actual sword

2) It's concentration so obviously my PC must be actively doing something to keep the sword up, no reason she should be able to boost its power when needed.

What do you guys think? Are there any more points for or against me?

Empowered Spell can't affect every hit; you spend Sorcery points for any individual damage roll.


EMPOWERED SPELL
When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.
You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

[Quietus]

This is definitely a dm call thing. I would try and meet in the middle; propose to your dm that you can only reroll a total number of dice equal to your charisma modifier over the course of the spell.

[JackPhoenix]

1) is make sense, but not for the reason you've listed. Creation and Simulacrum are also illusion spells, and both create real enough objects or creatures. More important point is that it does psychic damage, not any kind of physical damage.
2) concentration doesn't require you to actively do anything. You just passively concentrate.


Empowered Spell only affects a single damage roll, and thus cannot affect every hit.

That's not actually true. You may notice it's the only metamagic option that doesn't say "When you cast a spell". You may cast empowered Wall of Fire (or something) and then burn sorcery points every time someone takes damage from it. You can also cast something that targets multiple creatures and spread the rerolls between different targets. From SAC:
Can Empowered Spell affect all the rays of a scorching ray spell, or just one?
A sorcerer’s Empowered Spell could affect more than one ray of a scorching ray, abiding by the feature’s die limit. For instance, if you create three rays with the spell and you have a +3 Charisma modifier, you could reroll one of the damage dice for each ray, or two of the damage dice for one ray and one of the damage dice for another one.

[NaughtyTiger]

1) is make sense, but not for the reason you've listed. Creation and Simulacrum are also illusion spells, and both create real enough objects or creatures. More important point is that it does psychic damage, not any kind of physical damage.

how does psychic damage mean you continue to get effects of empowered spell?

[LudicSavant]

That's not actually true. You may notice it's the only metamagic option that doesn't say "When you cast a spell". You may cast empowered Wall of Fire (or something) and then burn sorcery points every time someone takes damage from it. You can also cast something that targets multiple creatures and spread the rerolls between different targets. From SAC:

I think you misunderstand me. You can Empower the same spell multiple times, but any given empowering would affect a single damage roll.

[Zetram]

Empowered Spell can't affect every hit; you spend Sorcery points for any individual damage roll.

Yes. To clarify, I don't mean burn 2 sorc points and continuously have the effect as long as the spell is up. I mean every time I hit I should have the option to burn point to re-roll. My DM says I can't do it at all.


1) is make sense, but not for the reason you've listed. Creation and Simulacrum are also illusion spells, and both create real enough objects or creatures. More important point is that it does psychic damage, not any kind of physical damage.
2) concentration doesn't require you to actively do anything. You just passively concentrate.



That's not actually true. You may notice it's the only metamagic option that doesn't say "When you cast a spell". You may cast empowered Wall of Fire (or something) and then burn sorcery points every time someone takes damage from it. You can also cast something that targets multiple creatures and spread the rerolls between different targets. From SAC:

Thanks for the quote. This will help a lot!

[LudicSavant]

Yes. To clarify, I don't mean burn 2 sorc points and continuously have the effect as long as the spell is up. I mean every time I hit I should have the option to burn point to re-roll. My DM says I can't do it at all.

I see.

My interpretation would be that you can empower any given hit, as the damage is created by the spell.

[JackPhoenix]

how does psychic damage mean you continue to get effects of empowered spell?

You can use Creation (also illusion spell) to make a sword, and it will act as normal sword of the same type. It won't even be magical, despite its origins. It'll do slashing damage as any sharp piece of metal of the same shape would. While Shadow Blade also creates something that looks like sword, the damage caused isn't physical, which suggest the damage comes from the spell and not from the physical qualities of the created object. So using the damage type is a better argument why the damage of the Shadow Blade comes from a spell than the fact it belongs to the illusion school.


I think you misunderstand me. You can Empower the same spell multiple times, but any given empowering would affect a single damage roll.

Yes. To clarify, I don't mean burn 2 sorc points and continuously have the effect as long as the spell is up. I mean every time I hit I should have the option to burn point to re-roll. My DM says I can't do it at all.

My interpretation would be that you can empower any given hit, as the damage is created by the spell.

Yes, we're in an agreement on that. The original sentence I've quoted and the OP is bit more unclear on what you've meant, but I'll keep my post as it is anyway.

Edit: to clarify further, I'd say the GM also has a good case, as unlike Flame Blade (which has similar effect), Shadow Blade has to be used to make weapon attacks, not spell attacks. As a GM, I would agree with your interpretation, but I could see it being ruled either way.

[LudicSavant]

Yes, we're in an agreement on that. Seems so! :smallsmile:


Edit: to clarify further, I'd say the GM also has a good case, as unlike Flame Blade (which has similar effect), Shadow Blade has to be used to make weapon attacks, not spell attacks. As a GM, I would agree with your interpretation, but I could see it being ruled either way.

Counterpoint to the GM's case:
Consider Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, which also make melee weapon attacks. It says "the spell's damage increases at higher levels," suggesting that it is still the spell's damage.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yes, we're in an agreement on that.
This was the point of confusion not how yhe spell works. I think we are all copestic now

[sophontteks]

I think you misunderstand me. You can Empower the same spell multiple times, but any given empowering would affect a single damage roll.
This causes problems with certain spells. I'd go ballistic if the DM made me roll a separate empower for every scorching ray, for example. There comes a point where a reasonable person just has to say screw RAW and screw JC's lame twitter nerfs to sorcerers.

[loki_ragnarock]

My argument is more emotional and less intellectual:

A sorcerer spends one of his precious few metamagic picks on Empower spell instead of the more game shattering ones.
A sorcerer spends one of his precious few spells known on Shadowblade.
A sorcerer proposes to spend two sets of his daily class resources to maybe do a little more damage.

In light of the high opportunity cost vs. the potential actual broken stuff you would get by letting the player retrain either, just let the guy do his fun thing. Rerolling a few D8 ain't no big thang. Dealing with the fallout from a player retraining it to subtle and the nightmare he will make your campaign afterwards is, by contrast, a big thang.

[JackPhoenix]

Counterpoint to the GM's case:
Consider Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, which also make melee weapon attacks. It says "the spell's damage increases at higher levels," suggesting that it is still the spell's damage.

GFB and BB works differently from FB or SB. You get the weapon attack, and you get the added damage from spell. You can use Empowered on the fire damage (after level 5, you're not rolling anything until then) or thunder damage, but not on the damage from the weapon itself.

[LudicSavant]

GFB and BB works differently from FB or SB. You get the weapon attack, and you get the added damage from spell. You can use Empowered on the fire damage (after level 5, you're not rolling anything until then) or thunder damage, but not on the damage from the weapon itself.

Correct. But the point is that the fact that it's a "melee weapon attack" instead of a "melee spell attack" is immaterial.

[Dalebert]

This causes problems with certain spells. I'd go ballistic if the DM made me roll a separate empower for every scorching ray, for example. There comes a point where a reasonable person just has to say screw RAW and screw JC's lame twitter nerfs to sorcerers.

I'd let you apply it to all the rays but I'd be very clear that's not raw and to not take it as any kind of precedent.

[bid]

I think we are all copestic now
ac <- I think you dropped those :smallbiggrin:

Copacetic. (I had to look it up, nice word btw ;)

[sophontteks]

I'd let you apply it to all the rays but I'd be very clear that's not raw and to not take it as any kind of precedent.
I think JC hammered this spell, and sorcerers, into the ground enough where the precident is to ignore his rulings. Like, the only reason the Rays must hit sequentially is because JC said so. And his list of spells that don't work with metamagic is extremely frusterating to deal with.

Like, chaos bolt.
-JC said it can potentially strike multiple creatures, so it can't be twinned.
- Can't use empower rolls to increase the chance of another bolt going off. JC insisted only the original rolls count.
- Can't empower the total damage of the spell. JC said its per damage roll.

So, rule of fun, rule of cool, rule of good god can we just play the freaking game take precedence.

[Daphne]

I'd let you apply it to all the rays but I'd be very clear that's not raw and to not take it as any kind of precedent.

A sorcerer's Empowered Spell could affect more than 1 ray in scorching ray, abiding by the feature's die limit. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/700146864948060160?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E700146864948060160&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F0 3%2F12%2Fcan-empowered-spell-affect-all-bolts-of-scorching-ray-or-just-one%2F)

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

My DM and I are in disagreement about whether Empowered Spell can effect every hit of a Shadow Blade. Initially he said it didn't work because the spell is what creates the blade not the damage. I left it alone, because I didn't want to go back and forth during a session.

However after looking into the spell more I have a few points that I think are in my favor:

1) It's illusion not conjuration, so damage is created by the spell but in the illusionary shape of a sword, instead of creating an actual sword

2) It's concentration so obviously my PC must be actively doing something to keep the sword up, no reason she should be able to boost its power when needed.


What do you guys think? Are there any more points for or against me?

EDIT: Yes. To clarify, I don't mean burn 2 sorc points and continuously have the effect as long as the spell is up. I mean every time I hit I should have the option to burn points to re-roll.

The thing about shadowblade is that the damage, though it may be psychic magic damage, it isn't done from a spell attack. The spell shadowblade creates a weapon (simple, light, finesse). You use your physical attack modifier (STR, or DEX) to use it, not spell attack modifier.

Empowered spell metamagic says "when you roll damage for a SPELL you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of damage dice up to your charisma modifier. You must use the new rolls."

I would rule that a regular attack from shadowblade could not be rerolled using metamagic. Damage from booming blade or green flame blade I would say yes to, though. It is a melee spell attack (using your physical attack mod) but the damage is from a spell.

[Vogie]

The thing about shadowblade is that the damage, though it may be psychic magic damage, it isn't done from a spell attack. The spell shadowblade creates a weapon (simple, light, finesse). You use your physical attack modifier (STR, or DEX) to use it, not spell attack modifier.

Empowered spell metamagic says "when you roll damage for a SPELL you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of damage dice up to your charisma modifier. You must use the new rolls."

I would rule that a regular attack from shadowblade could not be rerolled using metamagic. Damage from booming blade or green flame blade I would say yes to, though. It is a melee spell attack (using your physical attack mod) but the damage is from a spell.

Oh no, it's the Maximized Ice Axe from 3.P! It's coming back to haunt me!!

Yeah, I'm in this camp too.

[Rukelnikov]

This causes problems with certain spells. I'd go ballistic if the DM made me roll a separate empower for every scorching ray, for example. There comes a point where a reasonable person just has to say screw RAW and screw JC's lame twitter nerfs to sorcerers.


I'd let you apply it to all the rays but I'd be very clear that's not raw and to not take it as any kind of precedent.

IDK what you two are talking about, tweeter confirmed it can apply to all rays, and its even in SAC.


Oh no, it's the Maximized Ice Axe from 3.P! It's coming back to haunt me!!

Yeah, I'm in this camp too.

God how I loved that spell