View Full Version : DM's call - prestigiditation
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 05:35 PM
The prestidigitation cantrip allows characters to create an object or small trinket that could fit in their hand. Could a character use this to create a temporary dagger or dart if they were left without?
Edit: for the scenario in question, the character has a bonus effect on the cantrip that allows for small objects "that can be held in one hand", as opposed to "fit in your hand"
Coffee_Dragon
2019-03-23, 05:52 PM
Small replicas, yes. Usable as the real thing, no.
Prestidigitation is a very broad cantrip for showing off and as such attractive enough without adding utility to it.
Sindal
2019-03-23, 05:52 PM
I suppose i wouldn't say no to them conjuring a dagger or dart.
but given that it can fit in your hand, aka isn't going to be very big as most daggers still take up your hand with the hilt by itself, I wouldn't let anyone use it for combat functionality.
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 05:55 PM
And what if it was a modified version of the cantrip that allowed you to create an object or small trinket that you could hold in one hand?
The prestidigitation cantrip allows characters to create an object or small trinket that could fit in their hand. Could a character use this to create a temporary dagger or dart if they were left without?
Sure. I can't see any reason why not.
Lunali
2019-03-23, 06:01 PM
I suppose i wouldn't say no to them conjuring a dagger or dart.
but given that it can fit in your hand, aka isn't going to be very big as most daggers still take up your hand with the hilt by itself, I wouldn't let anyone use it for combat functionality.
By a similar token, darts would probably also not work as DnD darts are closer to lawn darts than dartboard darts.
As for what prestidigitation can make, I would use the table of trinkets in the PHB as a (non-exhaustive) guide.
BobTheOrc
2019-03-23, 06:08 PM
By a similar token, darts would probably also not work as DnD darts are closer to lawn darts than dartboard darts.
As for what prestidigitation can make, I would use the table of trinkets in the PHB as a (non-exhaustive) guide.
Why do you say they are more similar to lawn darts? It would be really cumbersome to bring a bunch of those along.
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 06:10 PM
Why do you say they are more similar to lawn darts? It would be really cumbersome to bring a bunch of those along.
but they have a much higher irl kill count than board darts, for a much lower time of regular use
Sindal
2019-03-23, 06:11 PM
And what if it was a modified version of the cantrip that allowed you to create an object or small trinket that you could hold in one hand?
That's not prestidigitation then is it? That's "conjure lesser blade' or something.
If that's what you want to do and you dm allows it then go for it.
If your the dm and you think it's fair, still go for it.
I doubt anything is really gamebreaking in allowing 1d4 weapons to be conjured but i'm wondering who would of those who have access to prestidigitation would ever need it. Most if not all classes that it applies to will have a cantrip that will be significantly better than a makeshift shiv. And it's not like daggers or especially darts are at all expensive. If it's for a random case where all of your weapons are stolen and your in prison or something, again, you probably have better options at hand if you have magic.
I know prestidigitation is supposed to be 'the imagination cantrip'
But I'll stick to it doing what to does, ever since I once got asked by a player if they can use the harmless sensory effect to make people think they are having an orgasm
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 06:16 PM
That's not prestidigitation then is it? That's "conjure lesser blade' or something.
If that's what you want to do and you dm allows it then go for it.
If your the dm and you think it's fair, still go for it.
I doubt anything is really gamebreaking in allowing 1d4 weapons to be conjured but i'm wondering who would of those who have access to prestidigitation would ever need it. Most if not all classes that it applies to will have a cantrip that will be significantly better than a makeshift shiv .
I know prestidigitation is supposed to be 'the imagination cantrip'
But I'll stick to it doing what to does, ever since I once got asked by a player if they can use the harmless sensory effect to make people think they are having an orgasm
I hope to god you said yes.
and the character, is a lesser genie-type who uses an improved prestidigitation to "grant" wishes, for themself and others
Sindal
2019-03-23, 06:18 PM
I hope to god you said yes.
and the character, is a lesser genie-type who uses an improved prestidigitation to "grant" wishes, for themself and others
I didn't :smallcool:
If it makes you feel any better that character's boyfriend got his sorcerer powers from a wish his mother made before she died.
Unoriginal
2019-03-23, 06:19 PM
The prestidigitation cantrip allows characters to create an object or small trinket that could fit in their hand. Could a character use this to create a temporary dagger or dart if they were left without?
No. Prestidigitation doesn't create anything that can damage anyone, especially not a weapon.
And what if it was a modified version of the cantrip that allowed you to create an object or small trinket that you could hold in one hand?
Then it wouldn't be Prestidigitation.
and the character, is a lesser genie-type who uses an improved prestidigitation to "grant" wishes, for themself and others
Then why ask us what Prestidigitation could do? It's your homebrew, no one else know how it works.
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 06:20 PM
If it makes you feel any better that character's boyfriend got his sorcerer powers from a wish his mother made before she died.
an Aside,
what background did that sorcerer have? There isn't really one that I think fits the "I'm magic because" style sorcerer, and I started a thread wherein many strong opinions were shared about it
Sindal
2019-03-23, 06:23 PM
an Aside,
what background did that sorcerer have? There isn't really one that I think fits the "I'm magic because" style sorcerer, and I started a thread wherein many strong opinions were shared about it
Storm.
Born a tiefling. Abusive dad, loving mom.
Mom dead. Dad still abusive.
had to turn to graverobbing
Ghost strangled dad for graverobbing
Mom's genie wish from WAY BACK WHEN protected son by awakening his latent storm magic
Djinn are windy things. Sooooo.
the "I'm magic because" sorcerer is honestly wild sorcerer. They just have a really big amount of it in them
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 06:26 PM
No. Prestidigitation doesn't create anything that can damage anyone, especially not a weapon.
Where does it say that?
[QUOTE=Unoriginal;23796728]
Then it wouldn't be Prestidigitation.
"If you use metamagic you're casting a different spell"
Then why ask us what Prestidigitation could do? It's your homebrew, no one else know how it works.
Because it is Prestidigitation, and if the discussion comes up between me and the DM I want to make some points to bring up from different points of view, and I like to drum up conversation about the game I love
Lunali
2019-03-23, 06:26 PM
Why do you say they are more similar to lawn darts? It would be really cumbersome to bring a bunch of those along.
They would probably have much smaller fins than a typical lawn dart but they're a weapon that would be thrown with your whole hand, rather than gripped between your index finger and thumb. Roughly the length of a crossbow bolt with added weight for easier throwing and more power.
Sindal
2019-03-23, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=Unoriginal;23796728]No. Prestidigitation doesn't create anything that can damage anyone, especially not a weapon.
Where does it say that?
"If you use metamagic you're casting a different spell"
Because it is Prestidigitation, and if the discussion comes up between me and the DM I want to make some points to bring up from different points of view, and I like to drum up conversation about the game I love
With all due respect friend, your kinda just trying to find ways to stretch rules.
Metamagic is metamagic, you shouldn't add variables just because. There isn't currenlty a metamagic that changes the properties of a spell this way.
The only person who's opinion matters is your DM. Ask them.
I know prestidigitation doesn't 'say' you can't create a small pocket knife and use it to try and stab someone.
You know what one of it's effects are though? "• You create an Instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes, or an odd odor."
That first line, in my opinion, immediately sets the tone for the spell. It's a 'show off' spell. not a utility damage spell.
If it was made for damage, it would have text for damage
Unoriginal
2019-03-23, 06:36 PM
Where does it say that?
It lets you create a nonmagical trinket. A weapon isn't a trinket, and it would too small to be used as improvised weapon.
"If you use metamagic you're casting a different spell"
Obvious attempt to claim I said no one said is obvious.
This is not using metamagic. It's a spell with an different effect.
Because it is Prestidigitation
No, it is not. You said yourself that it was modified, and it doesn't use the Prestidigitation effects.
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 06:53 PM
It lets you create a nonmagical trinket. A weapon isn't a trinket, and it would too small to be used as improvised weapon.
Obvious attempt to claim I said no one said is obvious.
This is not using metamagic. It's a spell with an different effect.
No, it is not. You said yourself that it was modified, and it doesn't use the Prestidigitation effects.
Or an object that can fit in your hand.
And I used the wrong word in saying modified. It's more of a tacked-on effect similar to metamagic that just increases the scope of what you can make with it
The trinket only lasts until the end of your next turn. Only having a dagger every other turn seems like a very bad idea in any case.
Sigreid
2019-03-23, 07:07 PM
I would rule that prestidigitation can't since neither a dart nor a dagger can be completely covered in your hand.
JumboWheat01
2019-03-23, 07:31 PM
I'd say no, it would be much to tiny to really be of any combat utility. Just use one of your offensive cantrips if you want to deal damage and don't have a weapon.
Prestidigitation seems more to me to be the "I'm an arcanist!" cantrip, much how Thaumaturgy is the "I'm a cleric!" and Druidcraft is "I'm a druid!" It's a fluff cantrip, there for flavor and fun. It doesn't need combat utility at all. Every arcanist has a damaging cantrip if they want to use cantrips in combat, from the bardic Vicious Mockery (which does the same amount of damage as a a dagger or dart with a rider,) to a warlock's infamous Eldritch Blast to the various elemental cantrips of sorcerers and wizards.
stewstew5
2019-03-23, 08:00 PM
The trinket only lasts until the end of your next turn. Only having a dagger every other turn seems like a very bad idea in any case.
better than having nothing every turn
Samayu
2019-03-23, 09:36 PM
I agree with the others, that this cantrip should have no combat utility. Also, the fact that the weapon will vanish after a set amount of time has power in itself.
better than having nothing every turn
That depends on how strong and dexterous you are--it's very easy for unarmed strikes every round to be better than a dagger attack every other round.
But if you can cast a cantrip, how is your best option a dagger attack every other round?
That depends on how strong and dexterous you are--it's very easy for unarmed strikes every round to be better than a dagger attack every other round.
But if you can cast a cantrip, how is your best option a dagger attack every other round?
You're unarmed and that's the only spell you can cast, or at least the only one that can do anything useful in that situation.
JumboWheat01
2019-03-23, 10:11 PM
That sounds so incredibly specific as to not happen at all in almost every single game. Even Magic Initiate gives you two cantrips, so you would have a second one to fall back on, and if something is preventing you from casting another cantrip, it is most likely already going to stop Prestidigitation's use of Verbal and Somatic components.
That sounds so incredibly specific as to not happen at all in almost every single game. Even Magic Initiate gives you two cantrips, so you would have a second one to fall back on, and if something is preventing you from casting another cantrip, it is most likely already going to stop Prestidigitation's use of Verbal and Somatic components.
Magic Initiate gives you two cantrips, sure. And Prestidigitation and Mending are the obvious ones to take if you're using the wizard list. With Unseen Servant as your 1st level spell. Why would you waste Magic Initiate on combat spells? You've got your class abilities for that.
Magic Initiate gives you two cantrips, sure. And Prestidigitation and Mending are the obvious ones to take if you're using the wizard list. With Unseen Servant as your 1st level spell. Why would you waste Magic Initiate on combat spells? You've got your class abilities for that.
Okay, so casters are out, unless they avoided all of their offensive cantrips for some reason. And strength-based martial builds are out, because they'd be better off just going with unarmed strikes every round. So if you have a dexterity-based build for a martial character, who happened to take magic initiate, it could make sense.
The limited applicability is another reason I wouldn't allow the modification (along with conjuring a dagger seeming like much more than "a minor magical trick"). But, more importantly, if you choose not to take combat spells, I don't see any reason to be surprised that the spells you did choose don't help you out in combat.
The limited applicability is another reason I wouldn't allow the modification (along with conjuring a dagger seeming like much more than "a minor magical trick"). But, more importantly, if you choose not to take combat spells, I don't see any reason to be surprised that the spells you did choose don't help you out in combat.
The limited applicability is a reason why I would allow it; it doesn't seem like there's a lot of possibility for abuse there. And a dagger is an object that fits in your hand, so I wouldn't call it a modification.
The limited applicability is a reason why I would allow it; it doesn't seem like there's a lot of possibility for abuse there. And a dagger is an object that fits in your hand, so I wouldn't call it a modification.
A dagger is not a trinket and it doesn't fit in your hand, which is why stewstew5 modified it to allow the creation of an object that can be held in your hand. Which should allow a greataxe or a heavy crossbow to be conjured instead.
I know prestidigitation is supposed to be 'the imagination cantrip'
But I'll stick to it doing what to does, ever since I once got asked by a player if they can use the harmless sensory effect to make people think they are having an orgasm
Why do you think Mage Hand was invented?
A dagger is not a trinket and it doesn't fit in your hand, which is why stewstew5 modified it to allow the creation of an object that can be held in your hand. Which should allow a greataxe or a heavy crossbow to be conjured instead.
A cheap dagger can be a trinket. And it fits just fine in my hand. What breaks if Prestidigitation can create a cheap dagger for 1 round?
A cheap dagger can be a trinket.
The 100 examples of trinkets provided in the PHB suggest otherwise, as does the inclusion of daggers on the weapons list. And if it still does 1d4 damage, it doesn't matter how expensive the dagger would be if if lasted long enough to sell.
And it fits just fine in my hand.
I believe you are the only person to take that position so far.
What breaks if Prestidigitation can create a cheap dagger for 1 round?
Nothing breaks, but my standard isn't that you should be able to change whatever you want unless it breaks the game. This doesn't fit with the spirit of the cantrip, it's only applicable if you deliberately chose not to take any offensive cantrips, and it only provides a benefit to very particular builds. The player chose one of those builds, chose to take the Magic Initiate feat to gain cantrips, and chose not to take a combat cantrip when given the opportunity to do so. There's nothing wrong with any of those choices, either individually or in combination, but there's nothing wrong with expecting the player to accept the costs of those choices along with the benefits.
Laserlight
2019-03-24, 12:29 AM
Other than "making your buddy's Hangover Cure drink taste like pork grease", Prestidigitation is harmless. You could make a letter opener shaped like a knife, but I would say it's less than four inches long ("fits in your hand") and I wouldn't let you attack with it.
I am AFB but I'm pretty sure "conjure anything I want and make it solid" is a higher level Illusionist thing.
The 100 examples of trinkets provided in the PHB suggest otherwise, as does the inclusion of daggers on the weapons list. And if it still does 1d4 damage, it doesn't matter how expensive the dagger would be if if lasted long enough to sell.
So your position is that it can only create something on that list? I don't buy that at all.
I believe you are the only person to take that position so far.
<shrug> Maybe some other people have small hands. Or maybe they're thinking that "fits in" means the hand has to close.
Nothing breaks, but my standard isn't that you should be able to change whatever you want unless it breaks the game. This doesn't fit with the spirit of the cantrip, it's only applicable if you deliberately chose not to take any offensive cantrips, and it only provides a benefit to very particular builds. The player chose one of those builds, chose to take the Magic Initiate feat to gain cantrips, and chose not to take a combat cantrip when given the opportunity to do so. There's nothing wrong with any of those choices, either individually or in combination, but there's nothing wrong with expecting the player to accept the costs of those choices along with the benefits.
It fits perfectly with the spirit of the cantrip IMO. It's a cheap magic trick that, with a bit of cleverness, can occasionally do something really useful.
I am AFB but I'm pretty sure "conjure anything I want and make it solid" is a higher level Illusionist thing.
Actually "conjure anything I want, up to 10 pounds and 3 feet on a side, and have it stick around for an hour" is a 2nd level conjurer thing.
Sindal
2019-03-24, 12:44 AM
Why do you think Mage Hand was invented?
FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT:
The same character asked if they could use mage hand to squeeze people's organs to give them a heart attack or rub their bladder so they pissed themselves
Because it's described as spectral, which they interpreted as being able to go through things.
So your position is that it can only create something on that list? I don't buy that at all.
No, which is why I said the list suggests otherwise. If that was my position I would have just said that it wasn't on the list of trinkets. Of course, Prestigiditation can't even create all of the trinkets on the list because not all of them fit in your hand.
<shrug> Maybe some other people have small hands. Or maybe they're thinking that "fits in" means the hand has to close.
Or, more realistically, maybe they're thinking that it means about the size of your hand.
It fits perfectly with the spirit of the cantrip IMO. It's a cheap magic trick that, with a bit of cleverness, can occasionally do something really useful.
Sure. Conjuring up a dagger just isn't one of those things (not that there's anything particularly clever about conjuring up a weapon when you are unarmed).
Coffee_Dragon
2019-03-24, 01:04 AM
The same character asked if they could use mage hand to squeeze people's organs to give them a heart attack
"Yes. Yes you can. It's just that nobody else in the history of magic had realized you can use this cantrip as a repeatable Power Word: Kill. In fact, when you start using it against your enemies, everyone is so flabbergasted they are never able to catch on. You conquer the whole world and that's where we leave these characters. Roll up new ones. You can't take Mage Hand though because it's been banned from magic schools. I'll be taking this one to use for your first encounter."
No, which is why I said the list suggests otherwise. If that was my position I would have just said that it wasn't on the list of trinkets. Of course, Prestigiditation can't even create all of the trinkets on the list because not all of them fit in your hand.
Or, more realistically, maybe they're thinking that it means about the size of your hand.
Sure. Conjuring up a dagger just isn't one of those things (not that there's anything particularly clever about conjuring up a weapon when you are unarmed).
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, then. If somebody at my table wants to use Prestidigitation to conjure a dagger or a dart or even a piece of ammunition for a bow, crossbow, or sling, they can.
stewstew5
2019-03-24, 01:10 AM
A dagger is not a trinket and it doesn't fit in your hand, which is why stewstew5 modified it to allow the creation of an object that can be held in your hand. Which should allow a greataxe or a heavy crossbow to be conjured instead.
one hand, small object.
more wording I should clarify
FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT:
The same character asked if they could use mage hand to squeeze people's organs to give them a heart attack or rub their bladder so they pissed themselves
Because it's described as spectral, which they interpreted as being able to go through things.
I can't tell if I'd want this player at every game or if I'd want to ban them from every table I've sat at and I am here for it
Tanarii
2019-03-24, 01:35 AM
They would probably have much smaller fins than a typical lawn dart but they're a weapon that would be thrown with your whole hand, rather than gripped between your index finger and thumb. Roughly the length of a crossbow bolt with added weight for easier throwing and more power.
They're also about 4.5x the weight of a typical board dart (4oz per PHB vs ~25g per Wikipedia) and ~3.3x the weight of a PHB crossbow bolt.
lperkins2
2019-03-24, 01:40 AM
For what it's worth, a 'knife that belonged to a relative' is on the trinket list.
Other honourable mentions: A dragon claw; A sword hilt; a single caltrop; An arrow of elven design; An empty wine bottle.
Even if you say no 'dagger', with a d4 damage die, those would seem to qualify for the improvised weapon rules, with a d4 damage die.
Tanarii
2019-03-24, 01:43 AM
For what it's worth, a 'knife that belonged to a relative' is on the trinket list.
Other honourable mentions: A dragon claw; A sword hilt; a single caltrop; An arrow of elven design; An empty wine bottle.
Do those fit in your hand? Depends on how the DM rules 'fits in your hand' IMO. I've been assuming it means roughly palm sized. Tennis or baseball sized at most.
stewstew5
2019-03-24, 01:45 AM
Do those fit in your hand? Depends on how the DM rules 'fits in your hand' IMO. I've been assuming it means roughly palm sized. Tennis or baseball sized at most.
But if you go back and look through earlier posts, you'll see there's a bonus effect on this cantrip that allows small objects you could hold in one hand
Tanarii
2019-03-24, 01:51 AM
But if you go back and look through earlier posts, you'll see there's a bonus effect on this cantrip that allows small objects you could hold in one hand
Are we talking about RAW, or someone's modified house rule version of the cantrip?
RAW is it fits in your hand, not you can hold in one hand. Although a DM might rule them the same, they are not automatically so.
Sindal
2019-03-24, 01:57 AM
one hand, small object.
more wording I should clarify
I can't tell if I'd want this player at every game or if I'd want to ban them from every table I've sat at and I am here for it
You can let them be a player.
It's as simple as telling them "No, you can't do that. Find something else that makes sense"
The end
lperkins2
2019-03-24, 02:13 AM
Do those fit in your hand? Depends on how the DM rules 'fits in your hand' IMO. I've been assuming it means roughly palm sized. Tennis or baseball sized at most.
Oh good point. I was under the impression it was a trinket or an object that fits in your hand. Someone up-thread mentioned the trinket table.
Now, there are still two readings of the spell. The first is that the object or illusion must be fits-in-hand size and vanishes at the end of your next turn. The second is You make a nonmagical, but permanent, trinket or you make an illusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn. That probably is more powerful than a cantrip should be, but is interesting anyway.
Aquillion
2019-03-24, 03:19 AM
I'd just let people create a fully-functional dagger or dart. It doesn't break anything, and "trinket" is, to me, loose enough that I don't see the justification for how strictly people are trying to avoid allowing it. Remember that it only lasts until your next turn, so you're not selling it or anything, and if you try to do this in combat you'll waste every other turn casting the spell.
Caveat: I think it's clear that it is "You create a (nonmagical trinket or an illusory image that can fit in your hand) and (that lasts until the end of your next turn.)" Not "You create a (nonmagical trinket) or (an illusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.)" The latter interpretation doesn't make much sense - they would have been separate uses in that case - and if you go with it it breaks a lot more than just piddling daggers and darts.
But I feel like a lot of people elsewhere in this thread have overlooked the "lasts until the end of your next turn" limitation. Using Prestidigitation like this is drastically worse than any actual combat cantrip, so I can't see why people are so dead-set against it. If it doesn't break the game and it makes a player happy, allow it.
That sounds so incredibly specific as to not happen at all in almost every single game. Even Magic Initiate gives you two cantrips, so you would have a second one to fall back on, and if something is preventing you from casting another cantrip, it is most likely already going to stop Prestidigitation's use of Verbal and Somatic components.My reading is that a player who wants to use it like that probably just wants the thematics of pulling a dagger from nowhere and tossing it.
If they wanted to do that constantly, and have it be a workable combat trick, I would suggest a custom cantrip that does just that (or maybe a higher-level concentration spell ala Swift Quiver. Arcane Tricksters could definitely benefit from an "endless supply of daggers to throw rapid-fire" spell.)
But if they're, like, in a bar and want to pull a dagger out of nowhere so they can throw it at the wall and look cool... sure, why not. That's almost 100% of the applicability of this trick.
My reading is that a player who wants to use it like that probably just wants the thematics of pulling a dagger from nowhere and tossing it.
If they wanted to do that constantly, and have it be a workable combat trick, I would suggest a custom cantrip that does just that (or maybe a higher-level concentration spell ala Swift Quiver. Arcane Tricksters could definitely benefit from an "endless supply of daggers to throw rapid-fire" spell.)
But if they're, like, in a bar and want to pull a dagger out of nowhere so they can throw it at the wall and look cool... sure, why not. That's almost 100% of the applicability of this trick.
If you time it just right, you could throw it at something and have it disappear just before it hits. Which could be a cool trick for a bard to use as part of their act.
The prestidigitation cantrip allows characters to create an object or small trinket that could fit in their hand. Could a character use this to create a temporary dagger or dart if they were left without?people need to learn that daggers are not the same thing as knives.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/14/article-1045029-0056152F00000258-387_468x286.jpg
Guy on the left has a dagger, guy on the right, a knife
(... yes yes, I know ...)
DrKerosene
2019-03-24, 04:32 AM
I'd just let people create a fully-functional dagger or dart. It doesn't break anything, and "trinket" is, to me, loose enough that I don't see the justification for how strictly people are trying to avoid allowing it. (snip)... and if you try to do this in combat you'll waste every other turn casting the spell. (snip)
I was originaly going to say “Not allowed” mostly because it would step on the toes of an Eldritch Knight, but your argument for the ineffectiveness has convinced me it’s probably fine. Ironically I think an Eldritch Knight (with Tavern Brawler?) would be the most effective at using this in-combat.
Tanarii
2019-03-24, 10:18 AM
Caveat: I think it's clear that it is "You create a (nonmagical trinket or an illusory image that can fit in your hand) and (that lasts until the end of your next turn.)" Not "You create a (nonmagical trinket) or (an illusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.)" The latter interpretation doesn't make much sense - they would have been separate uses in that case - and if you go with it it breaks a lot more than just piddling daggers and darts.
To me it's clear it should be read:
You create a (nonmagical trinket or an illusory image) that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.
Both trinket and illusionary image must:
- fit in your hand
- last until the end of your next turn
DM interpretation on what "fit in your hand" means. That's not automatically the same as "be able to hold but somewhat or significantly larger than your hand", but it doesn't necessarily exclude it either. Although IMO there's got to be a size break point at which the vast majority of DMs will object, even for those that allow larger than your hand.
Actually "conjure anything I want, up to 10 pounds and 3 feet on a side, and have it stick around for an hour" is a 2nd level conjurer thing.
Unless it takes or deals any damage, in which case it disappears immediately, making it even less durable as a conjured weapon than the modified cantrip under discussion.
Unless it takes or deals any damage, in which case it disappears immediately, making it even less durable as a conjured weapon than the modified cantrip under discussion.
Slightly less durable for this one edge purpose, but overall a more useful ability, which fits with it becoming available one level higher.
Pyramid Pug
2019-03-24, 12:22 PM
To me it's clear it should be read:
You create a (nonmagical trinket or an illusory image) that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.
Both trinket and illusionary image must:
- fit in your hand
- last until the end of your next turn
DM interpretation on what "fit in your hand" means. That's not automatically the same as "be able to hold but somewhat or significantly larger than your hand", but it doesn't necessarily exclude it either. Although IMO there's got to be a size break point at which the vast majority of DMs will object, even for those that allow larger than your hand.
Playin’ a bit of devil’s advocate here, but.. if the definition of “fit in your hand” means “being able to hold it in one hand”, then what stops anyone from summoning any versatile weapon?
I personaly interpret it as an object not overly larger than your hand.
stewstew5
2019-03-24, 12:26 PM
Are we talking about RAW, or someone's modified house rule version of the cantrip?
RAW is it fits in your hand, not you can hold in one hand. Although a DM might rule them the same, they are not automatically so.
look back. The cantrip in question for this scenario is just prestidigitation, but the character in question has an effect akin to metamagic that broadens the scope of what you cna create with it (A small object that you can hold in one hand)
Aquillion
2019-03-24, 02:34 PM
Playin’ a bit of devil’s advocate here, but.. if the definition of “fit in your hand” means “being able to hold it in one hand”, then what stops anyone from summoning any versatile weapon?Possibly nothing, but remember, the weapon takes an action to summon and only lasts long enough to make one attack with it.
It's really not a big deal.
Christian
2019-03-24, 03:34 PM
Why do you say they are more similar to lawn darts? It would be really cumbersome to bring a bunch of those along.
Yes, it would. Anything big enough to kill someone with will be somewhat cumbersome.
The historical weapon referred to as a 'dart' is something like a light javelin with fletching. The Roman plumbata (http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/makeplumbata.htm) is a good example ... The darts demo'd in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJotBsrqbwI) are probably a bit long, but not that much. Anything significantly shorter and lighter than that will have very limited range and penetrating power--a toy, not a weapon.
DrKerosene
2019-03-25, 02:28 AM
Yes, it would. Anything big enough to kill someone with will be somewhat cumbersome.
The historical weapon referred to as a 'dart' is something like a light javelin with fletching. The Roman plumbata (http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/makeplumbata.htm) is a good example ... The darts demo'd in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJotBsrqbwI) are probably a bit long, but not that much. Anything significantly shorter and lighter than that will have very limited range and penetrating power--a toy, not a weapon.
I recall seeing some historical drawing, and it was pointed out that people had thought what was a quiver of three arrows hanging at someone’s hip, was actually probably a couple Plumbata in a holder. Can’t find the drawing, but I did find this image: https://i.redd.it/plabbt1fgo511.png
Imbalance
2019-03-25, 09:33 AM
First, I don't think that this cantrip allows the creation of something that can be used as a weapon to any effect. Even if one uses a modded cantrip to wring a giant battle axe out of thin air, what use is it?
B) Hand size varies. A gnome uses Prestidigitation and conjures a Switch Joycon; while his goliath companion summons forth the Duke.
III. What constitutes a dagger or dart may also vary. I personally own several examples of boot knives and push daggers that would not exceed the dimensions of my outstretched hand, and at least one I know would be completely concealed by my closed hand. I also own implements that are called "knife" that are larger than some sold to me as "sword." A dart could be blowgun ammo or a specialized throwing dagger (but not a Dodge, unless your setting is really cool).
stewstew5
2019-03-26, 09:52 AM
First, I don't think that this cantrip allows the creation of something that can be used as a weapon to any effect. Even if one uses a modded cantrip to wring a giant battle axe out of thin air, what use is it?
B) Hand size varies. A gnome uses Prestidigitation and conjures a Switch Joycon; while his goliath companion summons forth the Duke.
III. What constitutes a dagger or dart may also vary. I personally own several examples of boot knives and push daggers that would not exceed the dimensions of my outstretched hand, and at least one I know would be completely concealed by my closed hand. I also own implements that are called "knife" that are larger than some sold to me as "sword." A dart could be blowgun ammo or a specialized throwing dagger (but not a Dodge, unless your setting is really cool).
To surmise the thread in two parts
GreyBlack
2019-03-26, 12:44 PM
I wouldn't say no, but I also would say that they're not proficient with it. Essentially, they just conjured into existence an improvised weapon, not a real one. Same damage, but no finesse property. They can throw it if they want.
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