Path of War: Burnished Shell Counter

[Drayco84]

By angling one’s shield correctly and stepping into an enemy spell’s effect, he may deflect the power of the spell that targets him. Spells or powers countered by this ability must be targeted spells (one cannot use Burnished Shield against fireball for example, as it does not specify a target) with the martial disciple as the target. The initiator makes an attack roll using his base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC opposing the enemy’s caster level check. If successful, the spell or effect is negated.
Hey, I'm trying to find out something here. According the text for Burnished Shell, it's an attack roll with BAB and Shield Bonus vs. a caster level check against a targeted spell. Well, I'm trying to find out if Str (Or maybe dex with Weapon Finesse.) is included in that because if so, it's a bit underwhelming. you have a d20+BAB+Shield AC (+6 at minimum, more with Heavy Shield, Shield Focus, or other feats.) vs. d20+caster level, so it's mostly going to come down to who can roll better. (With an advantage to the guy with the shield.)
The way it's written seems to outright exclude ANY bonuses from Str or Dex, and my DM is leaning in that direction. (Can't say I blame him, though.) Anybody able to help clear this up?

[Rynjin]

According to responses in the FAQ thread I got a while back, it's meant to essentially be "make an attack roll with your shield and add your shield bonus as a bonus on the attack roll" but it's worded wrong. So you make your normal Shield Bash attack, and add your shield bonus to AC as an ADDITIONAL bonus on top, NOT just your BaB plus shield bonus.

[Kaouse]

According to responses in the FAQ thread I got a while back, it's meant to essentially be "make an attack roll with your shield and add your shield bonus as a bonus on the attack roll" but it's worded wrong. So you make your normal Shield Bash attack, and add your shield bonus to AC as an ADDITIONAL bonus on top, NOT just your BaB plus shield bonus.

Can I get a link to this FAQ? Cuz a lot of the counters in Iron Tortoise are worded as if you add JUST your BAB and your Shield bonus. And quite frankly, BAB + Shield bonus alone is more than enough for most caster level checks. Any other bonuses would make it a guaranteed counter, IMHO.

[Rynjin]

Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420178-Pathfinder-Dreamscarred-Press-FAQ/page49&highlight=faq)

Text:


So, Iron Tortoise Maneuvers. Are the "opposed attack roll" Counters as low as they sound?

Ex, Iron Shell:


The initiator makes an opposed attack roll as if making a shield bash attempt at his full base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC against his enemy’s attack roll

So is this JUST my BaB plus Shield Bonus, or do you add everything else you'd normally add to a shield bash attack, but also add your shield bonus to AC?

I'm rolling up against a creature with a +29 attack bonus, and I'm wondering whether I even have a chance of Iron Defender's Riposte doing anything to save an otherwise dead ally.


The maneuver specifies "as if making a shield bash," therefore you would use all the normal modifiers for a shield bash attack plus your shield bonus to AC.

Elricaltovilla is with Dreamscarred Press.


Cuz a lot of the counters in Iron Tortoise are worded as if you add JUST your BAB and your Shield bonus. And quite frankly, BAB + Shield bonus alone is more than enough for most caster level checks. Any other bonuses would make it a guaranteed counter, IMHO.

Counters are SUPPOSED to be more likely to succeed than not. Even with this ruling/RAI in mind Iron Tortoise Counters are more likely to fail than the ones based on an opposed skill check. Eternal Guardian keying off Intimidate in particular springs to mind. I'm rolling with nearly a +40 Intimidate on a level 8 character right now.

[Kaouse]

The problem is that not many of these counters actually specify "as if making a shield bash." Most don't, in fact. Instead, they generally say "Make an opposed attack roll using his base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC" with no mention of the term "shield bash."

[Rynjin]

I'm aware of that; I've said the wording is janky for years. RAW is the Counters are basically unusable; RAI is they're about as good as the other Counters in the game.

Given Iron Tortoise is THE Counter based Discipline, I'm more inclined to run it the RAI way.

[exelsisxax]

The problem is that not many of these counters actually specify "as if making a shield bash." Most don't, in fact. Instead, they generally say "Make an opposed attack roll using his base attack bonus plus his shield bonus to AC" with no mention of the term "shield bash."

Haste also says make an attack with your full BAB. That is not an indication that you don't get attribute, weapon, etc bonuses. Read the counter as "as an attack roll, with the shield bonus as a bonus to that attack(note: use your full BaB)"

[Rynjin]

Haste also says make an attack with your full BAB. That is not an indication that you don't get attribute, weapon, etc bonuses. Read the counter as "as an attack roll, with the shield bonus as a bonus to that attack(note: use your full BaB)"

That is not at all how Haste is worded.


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

Text is meant to either explicitly allow, or disallow. Haste allows; Burnished Shell does not by RAW.