Time Travel

[Matuka]

At some point during my campaign, I want to hurl my players back in time to meet the villain before he became the villain. How do I role play him in a way that makes them suspect who he is but not know who he is?

[Griswold]

You could make the villain be totally different, even a hero.

Then make it very advantageous for the PCs to totally screw him over. When they do, he curses their name forever and becomes a villain.

[Contrast]

Firstly I'd say its very difficult to get players to suspect something without making it real obvious. Messing with time travel is also difficult to do sensibly (and will often require the PCs being happy to be aboard the train ride for the journey).

If you're dead set on the plan - have him be acting under an assumed name in the present and someone similar be acting under that name in the past.


So say he's the head of a cult. They go back into time and <name> the Cult Leader is planning on doing a secret ritual to assume massive power. They stop him but the second in command who they'd tangled with a few times simply becomes head of the cult and it turns out <name> was just a ceremonial title for the leader of the cult.

Bonus points if the second in command was working with the PCs to overthrow the cult leader only to betray them.


A lot also depends on if the PCs know what they look like of course.

[Unoriginal]

At some point during my campaign, I want to hurl my players back in time to meet the villain before he became the villain. How do I role play him in a way that makes them suspect who he is but not know who he is?

Who he is as a villain, and what do the PCs know of him?

What caused him to become a villain?

[Millstone85]

What caused him to become a villain?And what happens if the PCs interfere with it?

A few classic options:

causal loop
divergent timeline
time crash

[Matuka]

Who he is as a villain, and what do the PCs know of him?

What caused him to become a villain?

He is a powerful necromancer who 300 yrs ago, was trapped in a crystal heart and released by my players.

He was once a innocent, happy, and kind young wizard who wanted to help his people. In his search for ways to protect them, he came across some secrets he probably shouldn't have. These secrets slowly corrupted him, not only changing his mind, but also his body. One day he, without warning, walked into a grave yard and used his new found power to raise the dead and attack the nearby town, thus beginning his reign as Valtorax: Lord of the Undead.

[Matuka]

And what happens if the PCs interfere with it?

A few classic options:

causal loop
divergent timeline
time crash


My thought is that there partially responsible for it, like they helped him get his hands on those secrets.

[Matuka]

And what happens if the PCs interfere with it?

A few classic options:

causal loop
divergent timeline
time crash


Though I am prepared just In case things don't go as planned.

[Unoriginal]

He is a powerful necromancer who 300 yrs ago, was trapped in a crystal heart and released by my players.

He was once a innocent, happy, and kind young wizard who wanted to help his people. In his search for ways to protect them, he came across some secrets he probably shouldn't have. These secrets slowly corrupted him, not only changing his mind, but also his body. One day he, without warning, walked into a grave yard and used his new found power to raise the dead and attack the nearby town, thus beginning his reign as Valtorax: Lord of the Undead.

Is there any traits of his former self that survived the change and that the PCs have seen in action?

[vexedart]

I’ve had a time traveling campaign that’s ongoing(plyrs are lvl 14).
Could have the players or bad guy kidnap an Androsphinx to control it and have it establish a lair, giving him the ability to travel through time, could add more constraints, needing to read the mind of an aboleth to get the blueprints, or ritual, perhaps needing to cast dream on the mind of a beholder to have it will the device into being.

[Matuka]

Is there any traits of his former self that survived the change and that the PCs have seen in action?

He loves to tinker, from magical spells to unique undead creations, like air ships made of bones and an air bladder made from flesh, or a burrowing worm made from horse skeletons. He's always loved tinkering and finding new uses for mundane things.

[Unoriginal]

He loves to tinker, from magical spells to unique undead creations, like air ships made of bones and an air bladder made from flesh, or a burrowing worm made from horse skeletons. He's always loved tinkering and finding new uses for mundane things.

Then you could have the guy in the past do that, in a much more ethical but still similar fashion.

Something you could do is have three characters that all could become the BBEG. Like, the nice dude, a rude-but-ultimately-not-evil rival who's competing to find the secret knowledge, and the mentor of both of them who's feeling like an out-of-the-loop has-been and desperately wants a breakthrough. And depending on the PCs' actions, either could end up in the path of becoming the BBEG.

[Sigreid]

So basically you're giving them the chance to kill baby Hitler. Are you prepared for them to decide to kill baby Hitler?

[R.Shackleford]

And what happens if the PCs interfere with it?

A few classic options:

causal loop
divergent timeline
time crash


Time Crash


Players must fight Chaos from FF I while floating in a void while doctor who music plays in the background. The fight is side v side and if a player takes to long to decide what to do chaos will comment that they need to hurry up so he can use his turn.

When they win, if they win, they get sent to when they went back... They must kill themselves or at least stop themselves from going back...

Which leads to a new fight with Chaos (for interfering with themselves) in which Chaos is bigger and badder... But then the party arrives on the other side and each player has two characters to use... Chaos is confused.

[pragma]

Time travel is a notoriously messy story device. Consider an interactive illusion showing the past or an elaborate, custom scrying spell if you don't want to deal with the specific shenanigans associated with causality.

That said, lots of ways to drop hints about the bad guy: hometown, hair color, other NPCs he is known to have known, proximity of graveyards, unusually zealous and intense desire to do good (as evidenced by a fiery, magical interruption of some bullying or something), similar name before adopting the mantle of the dread lord of necromancy.

[Eriol]

Time travel is a notoriously messy story device. Consider an interactive illusion showing the past or an elaborate, custom scrying spell if you don't want to deal with the specific shenanigans associated with causality.
The best explanation (bar none) for one specific case of how causality might work: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-04-03 This will only take a minute or two to read through. (Shlock is a GREAT webcomic BTW)

The best explanation for just how screwed up time travel can get and stay logically consistent (mostly) is Chrono Trigger/Cross: https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html Warning: this one could take an hour or two to read.


Short answer: do everything you can to avoid Time Travel, because it's far harder to get "right" than wrong, and somebody will point out the logical inconsistencies later.

[TurboGhast]

What are you trying to accomplish by letting them meet the past version of the villain? Perhaps you could meet that goal using methods that are less potentially messy than time travel.

[R.Shackleford]

Oh! How about doing Time Compression or Ellone from FF VIII? This way they can kinda influence the past, but not actually be there?

[Matuka]

So basically you're giving them the chance to kill baby Hitler. Are you prepared for them to decide to kill baby Hitler?

What if Hitler's rise warded off the rise of someone much worse?

[Sigreid]

What if Hitler's rise warded off the rise of someone much worse?

Certainly possible. Seems there's never a shortage of charismatic madmen.

[Matuka]

Time travel is a notoriously messy story device. Consider an interactive illusion showing the past or an elaborate, custom scrying spell if you don't want to deal with the specific shenanigans associated with causality.

I'm ready for the reality of them messing up the timeline. It's one of my favorite parts of time travel actually. Something is changed that they think is insignificant or helpful, and it changes the very course of time. It might not make total sense, but it's more fun that way.

[jh12]

What if Hitler's rise warded off the rise of someone much worse?

There's a 2002 episode of the Twilight Zone where killing baby Hitler led to Hitler.


Collins finally manages to fulfill her plan by stealing the child and jumping into a river with it. However, Kristina, another housemaid, having followed Andrea and witnessed her jump, buys a homeless woman's baby – the homeless woman ironically a Gypsy – and passes it off as Adolf, presumably the one known to history in the first place. Effectively Collins murdered an innocent child while creating Adolf Hitler.
https://twilightzone.fandom.com/wiki/Cradle_of_Darkness

[Matuka]

The best explanation (bar none) for one specific case of how causality might work: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-04-03 This will only take a minute or two to read through. (Shlock is a GREAT webcomic BTW)

The best explanation for just how screwed up time travel can get and stay logically consistent (mostly) is Chrono Trigger/Cross: https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html Warning: this one could take an hour or two to read.


Short answer: do everything you can to avoid Time Travel, because it's far harder to get "right" than wrong, and somebody will point out the logical inconsistencies later.

Oh but what's the fun of making an omelet on the back of a flying dragon if you don't drop a few dozen eggs.
The reason the second one didn't disappear is because when it went back in time, it split the current timeline away from its own because in the first timeline, no one sent a probe to them, they had to figure it out for themselves. The moment they sent it back, they became two different timelines, one where they got a probe in the first place and another where they didn't. Therefore, after getting the probe, if the younger probe were to be destroyed, it would have no effect. If I could draw, I would because that would make this a bit simpler.

[Matuka]

What are you trying to accomplish by letting them meet the past version of the villain? Perhaps you could meet that goal using methods that are less potentially messy than time travel.

I want them to talk, to interact, for the players to like him. If they know it's the villain from the get go, that's makes it a bit harder to relate to relate him. Plus, I know it's messy, but I really want to do it.

[pragma]

The best explanation (bar none) for one specific case of how causality might work: This will only take a minute or two to read through. (Shlock is a GREAT webcomic BTW)

The best explanation for just how screwed up time travel can get and stay logically consistent (mostly) is Chrono Trigger/Cross: Warning: this one could take an hour or two to read.

Thanks for the links! I'm also a big fan of the movie Primer as a cautionary time travel tale, look it up on Wikipedia for some gnarly diagrams.

[Eriol]

Thanks for the links! I'm also a big fan of the movie Primer as a cautionary time travel tale, look it up on Wikipedia for some gnarly diagrams.
Seen it. Re-watched with director's commentary. ;)

And related xkcd: https://xkcd.com/657/

[Vogie]

I like the idea that the BBEG is innocent, but I like time travel to be messy.

So what I'd do is have the players go back to prior to the origin point and realize there's not a terrible bone in this guy's body... He's Glenda the friggin good witch at all times, almost lawful stupid. However, time doesn't like being messed with, and a Paradox elemental manifests to erase the time travelers from the timeline. I'd picture this fight much like many of the fight scenes from Doctor Strange or Inception - only the party can see the paradox elemental, and the world is warping around them as the Paradox elemental can do things like make the buildings move, wiggle gravity around, et cetera. As they're losing to the elemental's chaos magic (you can also use the wild magic surge table for inspiration), the innocent wizard joins the fight as an ex machina... and, in retaliation the Paradox elemental changes the wizard's alignment (but it's not immediately evident that anything has changed - it uses an ability on the wizard, but there doesn't seem to be an effect, and he keeps fighting it).

To get the BBEG into the crystal heart, you could make the party, even with help, wipe against the Paradox elemental... which traps ALL of them into the crystal heart. It acts as a demiplane outside of time. If they get out, they also free the wizard that helped, still not knowing their alignment has changed. They also don't know that if they escape the demiplane, they'll return to their correct time... and the alignment-altered wizard will return to their timeline where they become that dread necromancer... all because the players went back in the first place.


And if they go back, Paradox is waiting

[TripleD]

What about “time travel” without the possibility of messing up?

Anytime they try to kill someone, they are brought back to life minutes later with no memory of having met the heroes. If they give money to someone, it vanishes from existence within minutes of leaving their hand. Even conversations are forgetten within a span of a few hours.

Basically the universe/magic spell preserves causality. Everything they do is pushed back to the way it was.

[Man_Over_Game]

What about “time travel” without the possibility of messing up?

Anytime they try to kill someone, they are brought back to life minutes later with no memory of having met the heroes. If they give money to someone, it vanishes from existence within minutes of leaving their hand. Even conversations are forgetten within a span of a few hours.

Basically the universe/magic spell preserves causality. Everything they do is pushed back to the way it was.

So the universe is literally railroading the players? I'm not entirely sure how someone would be able to play something like that.

[jh12]

So the universe is literally railroading the players? I'm not entirely sure how someone would be able to play something like that.

Think of the Universe as a giant Zamboni machine smoothing out the ice after them. The challenge would be to figure out how to make a big enough gouge in the ice to let the characters escape to their own time before the Zamboni smooths it out.

[Man_Over_Game]

Think of the Universe as a giant Zamboni machine smoothing out the ice after them. The challenge would be to figure out how to make a big enough gouge in the ice to let the characters escape to their own time before the Zamboni smooths it out.

I think I'd be fine with that a little bit, but what TripleD is recommending is a bit too extreme, I think. You'd have to resort to murdering people to create a big enough jump to change things, like you're trying to make fixing the timeline TOO expensive for the universe to pull off, and that seems problematic.

What I'd rather like to see is how the Wheel of Time does it, and what Rand does once he figures it out:
Rand realizes that the prophecies of the world HAVE to become true, despite him figuring out what they all mean, and fighting against it actually has a magnetic affect on people and events to force them to still hold true. The more you fight against it, the harder the whiplash, to the point where it can basically have reality-altering impacts. Rand once walked through a village in passing to do something important, and there were 20 some-odd weddings in that village the next day, and some event with some crazed wolf-man, all caused because of him trying to screw with Destiny. People around him start catching wind that weird stuff happens when he's near, and can't help but feel compelled to do things when he's nearby, occasionally against their will.

His final solution? Find out what HAS to become reality, and force it to happen in your image. If a friend of yours has to die, devise a way to create a clone before it happens with their memories so his "soul" can live on. If a particular banner has to burn, ensure that it's the bad guys who are using that banner instead of the good guys. Find out what Destiny wants, and give it the bare minimum rather than letting it make the decisions for you.

On a side note, if you haven't read the Wheel of Time series, you should. It's like Lord of the Rings, but less slow, more magic and more intrigue. I don't read much, but I have a hard time putting it down.

[TripleD]

So the universe is literally railroading the players? I'm not entirely sure how someone would be able to play something like that.

I don’t think it’s railroading since the players can still go and do whatever they want. If anything it’s the least railroad-y scenario possible; the players can literally do anything with no consequences.

The idea behind the mechanic is that the players cannot change the past at all. Their mission would be based around finding information that can help them in the present. You could even make puzzles based around the way time travel works. Say you bluff your way into a fortress; you only have an hour or so to find what you are looking for before the guards forget who you are and try to attack.

[Matuka]

I don’t think it’s railroading since the players can still go and do whatever they want. If anything it’s the least railroad-y scenario possible; the players can literally do anything with no consequences.

The idea behind the mechanic is that the players cannot change the past at all. Their mission would be based around finding information that can help them in the present. You could even make puzzles based around the way time travel works. Say you bluff your way into a fortress; you only have an hour or so to find what you are looking for before the guards forget who you are and try to attack.

There's no actual reason for that to be how it works, and it would just create unnecessary complication.

[TripleD]

There's no actual reason for that to be how it works, and it would just create unnecessary complication.

Not to be glib, but we’re talking about time travel: there’s no reason for any system to be how it works. You have stuff like “Back to Future” where you can erase yourself out of existence. “Terminator” where you can change the future but not return to it. “Dragonball” says you can change the future but only return to the one you came from. Then there’s stuff like “Cradle of Darkness” where you can’t change the past at all since it’s your actions that ended up creating the present in the first place.

I’m also not sure how it creates unnecessary complication. It sidesteps the butterfly effect, which is the largest complication of any kind of time travel.

[JoeJ]

I don’t think it’s railroading since the players can still go and do whatever they want. If anything it’s the least railroad-y scenario possible; the players can literally do anything with no consequences.

If they are no consequences for anything they do, then they can do nothing at all. That's the most extreme railroad possible; both the players and their characters are, in effect, watching a movie that they can't affect in any way.

[TripleD]

If they are no consequences for anything they do, then they can do nothing at all. That's the most extreme railroad possible; both the players and their characters are, in effect, watching a movie that they can't affect in any way.

Before we go further I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding “railroading”. My definition of that is when a DM creates a situation in which they have a predefined path for the players to follow and there is only one way for them to correctly do it. Any deviation from that path is met with swift punishments to get them back on track.

I don’t see this as fitting that. The players cannot change the past, but there is no limit to how they can interact with it in order to solve the tasks given to them. It’s not a movie since they decide where to go and what they will do, with the DM deciding if they gain anything useful. They can engage in combat, sneak through fortresses, and make (temporary) allies. They could travel halfway around the world to see if some small rumour has any bearing on the present they came from.

Not being to make permanent changes is a feature, not a bug. If you want to run a “domino effect” sort of time travel, where small changes can have big consequences, then this is not the method to use. If the purpose of time travel is a temporary trip to learn something about the past however, and you’d rather avoid butterfly-related headaches then I think this provides a decent framework. The past cannot be changed, but what you learn, how much you learn, and how you go about it is entirely up to you.

[JoeJ]

Before we go further I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding “railroading”. My definition of that is when a DM creates a situation in which they have a predefined path for the players to follow and there is only one way for them to correctly do it. Any deviation from that path is met with swift punishments to get them back on track.

It doesn't have to be punishment. If the world simply ignores anything you do, then you're watching somebody else's story. That's a railroady as it gets.


I don’t see this as fitting that. The players cannot change the past, but there is no limit to how they can interact with it in order to solve the tasks given to them. It’s not a movie since they decide where to go and what they will do, with the DM deciding if they gain anything useful. They can engage in combat, sneak through fortresses, and make (temporary) allies. They could travel halfway around the world to see if some small rumour has any bearing on the present they came from.

Not being to make permanent changes is a feature, not a bug. If you want to run a “domino effect” sort of time travel, where small changes can have big consequences, then this is not the method to use. If the purpose of time travel is a temporary trip to learn something about the past however, and you’d rather avoid butterfly-related headaches then I think this provides a decent framework. The past cannot be changed, but what you learn, how much you learn, and how you go about it is entirely up to you.

What you're describing is the PCs don't decide anything because it doesn't count as "deciding" if your decision doesn't change the world in some, possibly tiny but nevertheless real way. Without that, what you would avoid is any player involvement in the game world. The players might as well just get out their tablets or phones and look for something else to do.

[TripleD]

What you're describing is the PCs don't decide anything because it doesn't count as "deciding" if your decision doesn't change the world in some, possibly tiny but nevertheless real way. Without that, what you would avoid is any player involvement in the game world. The players might as well just get out their tablets or phones and look for something else to do.

“Alright, we need to find out where the three shards of the crystal are. The necromancer has killed all of the sages who knew where to find them. Luckily I have a portal that can send you back in time to learn where they are so we can find them in the present. Now we will be using TripleD’s rules for time travel, so while you can’t make any permanent changes, you can still interact with the world.”

<— zap —>

“Sweet! We’re in the town marketplace 300 years ago! Let’s go seek lost sages, brave dungeons, and go find the knowledge we need in the present!”

“Wait. According to JoeJ this is just a movie, so we don’t have to do anything.”

<— Three hours of texting and candy crush later —>

“So does anyone know where the shards are yet?”

“Nope”

“Nah”

“No idea”

[JoeJ]

“Alright, we need to find out where the three shards of the crystal are. The necromancer has killed all of the sages who knew where to find them. Luckily I have a portal that can send you back in time to learn where they are so we can find them in the present. Now we will be using TripleD’s rules for time travel, so while you can’t make any permanent changes, you can still interact with the world.”

<— zap —>

“Sweet! We’re in the town marketplace 300 years ago! Let’s go seek lost sages, brave dungeons, and go find the knowledge we need in the present!”

“Wait. According to JoeJ this is just a movie, so we don’t have to do anything.”

<— Three hours of texting and candy crush later —>

“So does anyone know where the shards are yet?”

“Nope”

“Nah”

“No idea”

"No problem. The DM can text us tomorrow and let us know what we found."

[Kane0]

Time travel midas touch! If the PCs touch a creature spacetime divides by zero and removes them from existence.
Then when they come back all sorts of things are different, none of which in a good way.

But re the OP, any sort of quirk or tic. Speech patterns are the most obvious, but other traits such as a rigid schedule or aversion to the smell of roses might be good indicators.
Edit: especially if its something that could be considered a ‘family trait’

[Matuka]

Before we go further I want to make sure we are on the same page regarding “railroading”. My definition of that is when a DM creates a situation in which they have a predefined path for the players to follow and there is only one way for them to correctly do it. Any deviation from that path is met with swift punishments to get them back on track.

I don’t see this as fitting that. The players cannot change the past, but there is no limit to how they can interact with it in order to solve the tasks given to them. It’s not a movie since they decide where to go and what they will do, with the DM deciding if they gain anything useful. They can engage in combat, sneak through fortresses, and make (temporary) allies. They could travel halfway around the world to see if some small rumour has any bearing on the present they came from.

Not being to make permanent changes is a feature, not a bug. If you want to run a “domino effect” sort of time travel, where small changes can have big consequences, then this is not the method to use. If the purpose of time travel is a temporary trip to learn something about the past however, and you’d rather avoid butterfly-related headaches then I think this provides a decent framework. The past cannot be changed, but what you learn, how much you learn, and how you go about it is entirely up to you.

But if all things are undone, then any task they set out to do will also be undone. And if it takes something really big to cause them to go back, wouldn't that cause the worst butterfly effect of all? The universe can work all it wants, if it is an event catastrophic enough to wrap time, then it might not be fixable.

[Matuka]

“Alright, we need to find out where the three shards of the crystal are. The necromancer has killed all of the sages who knew where to find them. Luckily I have a portal that can send you back in time to learn where they are so we can find them in the present. Now we will be using TripleD’s rules for time travel, so while you can’t make any permanent changes, you can still interact with the world.”

<— zap —>

“Sweet! We’re in the town marketplace 300 years ago! Let’s go seek lost sages, brave dungeons, and go find the knowledge we need in the present!”

“Wait. According to JoeJ this is just a movie, so we don’t have to do anything.”

<— Three hours of texting and candy crush later —>

“So does anyone know where the shards are yet?”

“Nope”

“Nah”

“No idea”

What's to stop the universe from just wiping there minds every hour? Even if they do retain there memory, it sounds like you want the one and only use of a spell powerful enough to push the gears of time backwards is to get info and nothing else. If that were the case, why go through all the trouble, just use a scrying spell, a communicate with spirits spell, or any amount of spells that are so much less effort.

[Matuka]

Not to be glib, but we’re talking about time travel: there’s no reason for any system to be how it works. You have stuff like “Back to Future” where you can erase yourself out of existence. “Terminator” where you can change the future but not return to it. “Dragonball” says you can change the future but only return to the one you came from. Then there’s stuff like “Cradle of Darkness” where you can’t change the past at all since it’s your actions that ended up creating the present in the first place.

I’m also not sure how it creates unnecessary complication. It sidesteps the butterfly effect, which is the largest complication of any kind of time travel.

Ok, that is a very similar argument to "it's magic you don't have to explain it" and I find that argument boring and lazy.
Also, I'd rather face the complications of the butterfly effect then make it so the actions of my players have no meaning beyond into gathering.

[Kane0]

So you'll have to either pick your flavor of time travel or come up with your own conventions, because there isn't one true way of handling it. I personally really enjoy Red Alert flavor time travel.

[Matuka]

Thank you for all your ideas, I'll report back after it actually happens.

[JoeJ]

Ok, that is a very similar argument to "it's magic you don't have to explain it" and I find that argument boring and lazy.
Also, I'd rather face the complications of the butterfly effect then make it so the actions of my players have no meaning beyond into gathering.

In other words, the biggest downside of avoiding all the complications of time travel, is that it avoids all the complications of time travel. :smalltongue:

(I agree actually. Why have time travel if you aren't going to do anything interesting with it?)