Help with my Druid/Sorc build

[Wuzza]

While I'm not a "power gamer" I've noticed a bit of a drop off on my build choice in the last level compared to the rest of the group. (Rogue/Cleric/Fighter) Either that or it doesn't feel quite so overpowered. :smallsmile:

I went Druid 3, then Sorc 1, mainly for fluff reasons and so I could get the AC bonus for Draconic Bloodline. I know this puts me behind the curve on both spell levels (known) and Wild Shape, but I really liked the idea of not having to use armour. (currently running Shield from Sorc and have realised I've missed out not using Barkskin with Wild Shape. (Still pretty much using brown bear exclusively)

My intention is to go lvl 4 druid next to get the ASI (+1wis/+1 Dex) which will get me an increase on both stat bonuses.
Currently: Str 11: Dex 13: Con 13: Int 13: Wis 17: Cha 15 (we used 4d6,drop lowest, Wood Elf) AC 14.

My thinking is to go 2 levels after that for Druid 4/Sorc 3 to gain metamagic, even though that would put me yet another two levels off knowing lvl 3 Druid spells.

Then what? 4/4 to get another ASI, or do you think lvl 3 spells would be better? Feats are allowed, so far only one magic item, +1 scimitar. Still not sure if I want to go mainly Druid or Sorc., although I do like the "utility" role.

Thoughts appreciated. :smallsmile:

[CTurbo]

Druid/Sorcerer is one of the more random possible combinations out there so it's no wonder you've felt a power drop off compared to the rest of the party. You'll do best by taking as many levels in one or the other class rather than an even split IMO. Did you at least take Sorcerer as your first level for Con saves?

If you want metamagic then Sorcerer 3 would be ok, but I wouldn't take anymore than that. On the flip side, if you would prefer more Sorcerer than Druid, I wouldn't take anymore Druid levels.

[Quoz]

If it's not too late to change, monk/druid is probably a much better fit. You don't get the caster levels, but adding WIS to AC in wild shape is a very nice bonus. Martial Arts bonus attacks should work in best form as well, but you may want to clear that with your GM.

[Wuzza]

Did you at least take Sorcerer as your first level for Con saves?

Nope, didn't plan anything at all. :smallbiggrin:


If it's not too late to change, monk/druid is probably a much better fit. You don't get the caster levels.
I wanted to go more caster than melee, and also didn't want to miss out on the spell slots, hence Sorcerer.

One thing I have realised, and not sure if I've missed something, is that by taking the occasional Sorc level, you can actually get max level spells?

E.G. Currently 3/1, if I take Sorcerer level 2 next, I can switch out one spell known (for leveling) and also choose a spell that I have a spell slot for. At multiclass lvl 5, that gives me 2x level 3 slots, so I can be sitting at 1x level 1, and 2x level 3 spells known on Sorc.
Am I missing something with this, or is Sorc the only m/c that will give you this? (in theory I could go 17 Druid, gain a level in Sorc and gain 2 level 9 spells?)

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a bit of an alternate solution, but you could talk to your DM about looking into my Prestige Options (in the signature).

It uses alternate modifiers for specific classes and subclasses (like using Charisma on a Shepherds Druid), so long as you obey certain restrictions. If you break those restrictions in any way, you revert to using the default stat.

It'd fix a lot of the problems you're looking at, and open up a lot of opportunities. I've also done all the work to filter out any overpowered combinations. In fact, I regularly challenge people to prove me wrong and to create an overpowered build using these rules, and nobody has come up with anything Who pointed out that an Intelligence Monk could gain access to Shield and War Mage benefits, but the Monk has a decent enough number of reaction-based abilities anyway (Deflect Missile, Slowfall, OA's) that a +2 AC on a single attack wasn't enough to consider it too strong.

I restricted the Intelligence Monk to subclasses that rely heavily on their tertiary stat or on combat avoidance (like Sun Soul), so that even if someone had a 13 Intelligence just to dip into Wizard just to use Shield won't really be able to abuse it or won't be able to afford to ignore either Dexterity or Intelligence and be forced to divide between them.

[Citan]

While I'm not a "power gamer" I've noticed a bit of a drop off on my build choice in the last level compared to the rest of the group. (Rogue/Cleric/Fighter) Either that or it doesn't feel quite so overpowered. :smallsmile:

I went Druid 3, then Sorc 1, mainly for fluff reasons and so I could get the AC bonus for Draconic Bloodline. I know this puts me behind the curve on both spell levels (known) and Wild Shape, but I really liked the idea of not having to use armour. (currently running Shield from Sorc and have realised I've missed out not using Barkskin with Wild Shape. (Still pretty much using brown bear exclusively)

My intention is to go lvl 4 druid next to get the ASI (+1wis/+1 Dex) which will get me an increase on both stat bonuses.
Currently: Str 11: Dex 13: Con 13: Int 13: Wis 17: Cha 15 (we used 4d6,drop lowest, Wood Elf) AC 14.

My thinking is to go 2 levels after that for Druid 4/Sorc 3 to gain metamagic, even though that would put me yet another two levels off knowing lvl 3 Druid spells.

Then what? 4/4 to get another ASI, or do you think lvl 3 spells would be better? Feats are allowed, so far only one magic item, +1 scimitar. Still not sure if I want to go mainly Druid or Sorc., although I do like the "utility" role.

Thoughts appreciated. :smallsmile:
Hi.

First off, quick "fix" ^^

Druid/Sorcerer is one of the more random possible combinations out there so it's no wonder you've felt a power drop off compared to the rest of the party.
Druid/Sorcerer is one of the most wonderful possible combinations out there so it's natural that you pay a hefty price for it by very significantly pushing away access to higher level spells.

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Seriously though.
I see mainly (only?) two Metamagic that really make worth going into Sorcerer (if main goal was access to some offensive spells, you could probably just pick one specific Cleric Domain instead).
- Extended: Healing Spirit, Conjuration spells, Pass Without Trace, Enhance Ability, are the most evident of all spells that can heavily benefit: you are trading a significant resource (another slot for "extending") for a small one (1 SP). Actual benefit obviously depends on spell and situation.
- Subtle spell. SUBTLE spell. FRIGGING TOP TIER FEATURE SUBTLE.

AND you can mix that with Wild Shape... You know what that means?
It means that you get a close version of Druid's 18th level ability...
For just one SP per cast...
As soon as level 6.
(Unless of course your DM is very, very strict and borderline "anti-RAW" grumpy.)

I won't say anything more. If that simple thought does not make you jump in excitement and dreams of every crazy thing you can do with that... Then that multiclass was probably not a great idea, and you should stick with Druid from here onwards.

Otherwise? Welcome to the class of greatest manipulators of all world!
Go Druid 4 if you must (Resilient: Constitution?), then either another immediately for 3rd level spells (kinda a big deal: Conjure Animals, Water Breathing ritual, Plant Growth, Call Lightning) or first go for metamagics.
Either way you should aim for Druid 5 / Sorcerer 3.
After that it all amounts to how many SP you consume in average per day and/or if you have a few spells you really want that are Sorcerer exclusives.

My intuitive thinking would be aim for Druid 8 / Sorcerer 4 (especially if you're a Moon Druid), then Druid 10 / Sorcerer 5 (same), then Druid 15 / Sorcerer 5 or Druid 13 / Sorcerer 7 depending on taste. Even a Druid 10 / Sorcerer 10 could be a thing if you like enough Metamagics to want another (Quicken or Twin to use in humanoid form are sustainable if taken at level 10. Otherwise, Empowered works equally well in Wild Shaped since applying after spellcast ;)).

In all case, just keep in mind that Subtle just takes care of somatic and verbal components, so if you want to (ab)use Wild Shaped Subtle casting learn and prepare accordingly.
Because I doubt any reasonable DM would dismiss the material requirements considering how powerful you'll be already. And even a lenient DM would have trouble considering any animal shape would allow you to manipulate a components pouch (holded by a friend or dropped beforehand) precisely and gracefully enough. ^^

Don't worry though: you will have faaaaar enough great spells to enjoy that don't have material components. :)

[bid]

E.G. Currently 3/1, if I take Sorcerer level 2 next, I can switch out one spell known (for leveling) and also choose a spell that I have a spell slot for. At multiclass lvl 5, that gives me 2x level 3 slots, so I can be sitting at 1x level 1, and 2x level 3 spells known on Sorc.
It doesn't work that way.
Everything in the Classes chapter uses the class level.
You are a druid 3 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
You are a sorcerer 2 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
The only thing you can do with your 3rd slots is upcast a lower, known spell. And the only reason you have 3rd slots is because MC features explicitely allows you to combine caster levels.

Think of it that way: should a high-level cleric have access to wish because it got a single level of wizard?

[Citan]

It doesn't work that way.
Everything in the Classes chapter uses the class level.
You are a druid 3 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
You are a sorcerer 2 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
The only thing you can do with your 3rd slots is upcast a lower, known spell. And the only reason you have 3rd slots is because MC features explicitely allows you to combine caster levels.

Think of it that way: should a high-level cleric have access to wish because it got a single level of wizard?
Oooops, totally missed that rules misunderstanding of OP. Thanks ^^

To OP, it's probably clear enough now with bid's explanation, but since I have 2mn available, let's put an example.

Your stats being Str 11: Dex 13: Con 13: Int 13: Wis 17: Cha 15
You're a level 3 Druid, so you can prepare 3+3 spells from your Druid list, 1st and 2nd level spells.
You picked a single level of Sorcerer, so you could learn two spells (let's say Shield and Mage Armor).

For spell slots, and spell slots only, you follow the rules of stacking described in multiclass section, so you are considered a (3+1=)4th level caster.

Let's get a bit crazy and imagine you develop your character as such: Life Cleric 3 / Draconic Sorcerer 3 / Moon Druid 3.
You can prepare a lot of spells, but there are all still only level 1 or 2.
Yet you now have the slots of 3+3+3=9th level caster, so you could for example upcast Healing Spirit or Spiritual Weapon as a 5th level spell.

Hope it's clearer with that illustration. :)

It's also why CTurbo (and people in general) was so reserved on this idea of taking several levels in another caster: it really is a strong choice to make because since XP needed is semi-exponential with levels, what is a bearable delay to access "next spell level" during the first levels can end up as months sticking with 6th level when friends are already enjoying 8th.

And that's why I put myself such importance on metamagic uses. If you are into it for daily and frequent use, and have an idea of the spells you want to use with (and/or know how to exploit low level spells with upcast), it's completely worth it. You can really be awesome. Especially if you view your character as spending most time in Wild Shape, whether in combat or not: as I said, it's like giving yourself 18th level feature at level 6, it's worth delaying both better spells and better wild shapes.

If, however, you just "wanted to have a try at metamagic" but overall see yourself as a caster with "secondary melee / emergency thp", it would probaby not be worth that delay (and in fact it's even a tad sad you already blocked potential access to Druid capstone).

----
You could sum up the conundrum in that single question: would you make an habit of casting spells while in Wild Shape? Yes -> multiclass totally worth and above.
No -> It's a much harder sell, because while Extend and Subtle are great, most Druids live perfectly without them. ^^ And while Sorcerer gets many great spells, unless your party is in dire need of direct AOE damage, you'd probably better get higher Druid spells as early as possible.

[OverLordOcelot]

Actual benefit obviously depends on spell and situation.
- Subtle spell. SUBTLE spell. FRIGGING TOP TIER FEATURE SUBTLE.

AND you can mix that with Wild Shape... You know what that means?
It means that you get a close version of Druid's 18th level ability...
For just one SP per cast...
As soon as level 6.
(Unless of course your DM is very, very strict and borderline "anti-RAW" grumpy.)

You can't cast spells in wild shape without the 18th level druid ability. This isn't a matter of interpretation, the rules for wild shape state literally: "You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form." The RAW is very clear, it's not anti-raw to interpret "You can't cast spells" as meaning "you can't cast spells", and claiming that a DM is 'very, very strict' for following very clear RAW instead of creating a house rule to give you a level 18 class ability is less than reasonable.

[Citan]

You can't cast spells in wild shape without the 18th level druid ability. This isn't a matter of interpretation, the rules for wild shape state literally: "You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form." The RAW is very clear, it's not anti-raw to interpret "You can't cast spells" as meaning "you can't cast spells", and claiming that a DM is 'very, very strict' for following very clear RAW instead of creating a house rule to give you a level 18 class ability is less than reasonable.
My...
I was so focused on my memory of that other bit of Wild Shape...
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."
Which alone would totally allow spellcasting with Subtle (since it removes the need of any specific physical ability)...

That I did forget about that black on white bit "you can't cast spells" on the line before.

For my defense, I have been recently DMing with a player mixing Druid and Mystic and RAW doesn't prevent use of psionics while in Wild Shape (one of the reasons why it's UA: I houseruled completely arbitrarily that psionic cost was tripled in WS to try and contain things. For now it's ok because very low level char (2/1) but I'm very worried about the future ^^). I completely mixed up both cases.

I should have realized by myself I was missing something though: if that kind of loophole had really been possible, forums would have been all about it since the release... XD

My sincere apologies to OP and all readers for that big mislead.

[Wuzza]

It doesn't work that way.
Everything in the Classes chapter uses the class level.
You are a druid 3 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
You are a sorcerer 2 and get access to its features (including spellcasting).
The only thing you can do with your 3rd slots is upcast a lower, known spell. And the only reason you have 3rd slots is because MC features explicitely allows you to combine caster levels.

Think of it that way: should a high-level cleric have access to wish because it got a single level of wizard?

Cleric/Wizard I completely agree, however....

A Sorcerers spells known is slightly different to other mages. "The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."

Spell slots are determined by your multiclass level, that's not in question. Going from 3/1 to 3/2 would give me level 3 spells slots.
A Sorcerers spells known are determined by the spell slot level, not purely by the level of the Sorcerer. "For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class,you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level." This reads (to me) that it is presuming you are a pure Sorc., and doesn't take into effect multiclassing. (no other class ability description makes mention of multiclassing) and this would surely be overridden by the multiclassing ruleset.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. But from what I can see of the RAW, my interpretation is fairly sound. "Specific beats general."
(fluff-wise I can imagine that the innate magic coursing through you relates to your overall power)



My sincere apologies to OP and all readers for that big mislead.
No worries dude, it's all good, and Subtle Spell is still a draw for me for social interactions. :smallsmile: It's all food for thought. Thanks for all the replies. :smallsmile:

[OverLordOcelot]

Which alone would totally allow spellcasting with Subtle (since it removes the need of any specific physical ability)...

That I did forget about that black on white bit "you can't cast spells" on the line before.

Yeah, it is easy to remember one line and not another. This also prevents you from using a ring of spell storing to get around casting in forms, as that items specifically says that when you use it you cast a spell, not the item.


My sincere apologies to OP and all readers for that big mislead.

Wait, aren't you supposed to double down and insist that what you originally wrote was correct at this point? Are we really on the interweb if this is happening? :smallsmile:

[Citan]

Yeah, it is easy to remember one line and not another. This also prevents you from using a ring of spell storing to get around casting in forms, as that items specifically says that when you use it you cast a spell, not the item.



Wait, aren't you supposed to double down and insist that what you originally wrote was correct at this point? Are we really on the interweb if this is happening? :smallsmile:
I have enough legitimate things to defend in my real job that drive me nuts because people above simply refuse to listen anything that does not go directly towards their personal interest (as people around may have noticed as I can get quite jumpy on bad days when people start arguing in bad faith XD)...

To stack onto that trying to defend blatant mistakes (that, in addition, would just break the game as I could witness with that working Druid/Mystic).

But, since you insist, let's try this...
:smalltongue:
"Druid/Sorcerer is still an awesome multiclass because you can still Subtle cast any spell, and concentrate onto it as a beast.
Just...
Ya know...
Not both *exactly* right at the same time.:smallbiggrin:"

I actually think this ^^ especially since Moon Druid can Wild Shape both with action and bonus action, so while you still have to cast as a humanoid, you can at least cast a spell and go wild -pun intended- in the same turn most times ^^ Although "awesome" may be a tad strong, YMMV here ^^
Besides that, there are many Druid spells that can really benefit from Extend, Subtle is great on any spell, and Quicken very handy as well. Plus Empower can definitely help at low level making the most of Druid damage spells that are a bit lower average than others...
So whatever metamagic you pick you get a very good use of this (although Quicken quickly gets costly when used regularly), and you can grab Shield to help keeping concentration too. :)

(Final note on that parenthesis: don't make the same mistake as me unless you really trust your player or tack heavy houserules on this: Psionics and Wild Shape are a really crazy mix).

[bid]

A Sorcerers spells known is slightly different to other mages. "The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Go back to Citan's reply. This interpretation has left for the catacombs a long time ago here.

And sorcerers are no different from bards or rangers. There's nothing "special" about them. A sorcerer 1 cannot cast wish any more than a wizard 1, even if it is a high-level cleric.

The line you quoted is in the Classes chapter, therefore that feature ignore any and all effects outside of sorcerer 2. Including any MC effects from combining with druid 3.

[Wuzza]

Go back to Citan's reply. This interpretation has left for the catacombs a long time ago here.

And sorcerers are no different from bards or rangers. There's nothing "special" about them. A sorcerer 1 cannot cast wish any more than a wizard 1, even if it is a high-level cleric.

The line you quoted is in the Classes chapter, therefore that feature ignore any and all effects outside of sorcerer 2. Including any MC effects from combining with druid 3.

I stand by initial thoughts, however I went and read the Ranger's spells, and thought I must be missing something, which I was, from the m/c section....

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single classed member of that class."

/gives self negative XP for being a doofus. :smallbiggrin:

[bid]

"You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single classed member of that class."

/gives self negative XP for being a doofus. :smallbiggrin:
Nah, you deserve extra XP for understanding the rules better. That what happens when you are in a party with Citan. :smallwink: