Double concentration

[Rad.benchman]

If a spell requiring concentration is cast using let’s say a ring of spell storing, does it still require concentration?
Situation could I cast darkness from a ring of spell storing and then cast wrathful smite or hex the next round with both active?

[Unoriginal]

If a spell requiring concentration is cast using let’s say a ring of spell storing, does it still require concentration?

Yes.



Situation could I cast darkness from a ring of spell storing and then cast wrathful smite or hex the next round with both active?

No.

There is no way to have two concentration spell active at the same time for the same person, no matter how they cast the spell.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes.



No.

There is no way to have two concentration spell active at the same time for the same person, no matter how they cast the spell.

Obligatory "unless something makes an exception" insertion for pedantry sake. But I'm not aware of any 1st party exceptions to this rule, and would be shocked to find one.

[Randomthom]

Yes.



No.

There is no way to have two concentration spell active at the same time for the same person, no matter how they cast the spell.

Potions seem to break this rule.

[Unoriginal]

Potions seem to break this rule.

Can you quote where it says that?

[No brains]

Glyph of Warding can maintain a concentration spell without needing the caster to concentrate. The big downside is that it is a cleric spell that competes with revives for its pricey material component, which might make the party nervous. It's also slow and immobile, meaning it's hard to hit enemies with it.

[Vogie]

Obligatory "unless something makes an exception" insertion for pedantry sake. But I'm not aware of any 1st party exceptions to this rule, and would be shocked to find one.

The Wizard School of Technomancy from UA:Modern Magic has this at 14th level - Once per Long rest, you can use your Tablet to concentrate on a spell on your behalf, effectively allowing you to concentrate on 2 spells simultaneously.

[Silkensword]

If you have a ring of spell storage, you can give it to your familiar, assuming you have one capable of wearing such an item, and it can cast and concentrate on a spell!

[Unoriginal]

The Wizard School of Technomancy from UA:Modern Magic has this at 14th level - Once per Long rest, you can use your Tablet to concentrate on a spell on your behalf, effectively allowing you to concentrate on 2 spells simultaneously.

Isn't it like having your Familiar concentrate on a spell?

[Damon_Tor]

Glyph of Warding can maintain a concentration spell without needing the caster to concentrate. The big downside is that it is a cleric spell that competes with revives for its pricey material component, which might make the party nervous. It's also slow and immobile, meaning it's hard to hit enemies with it.

There are ways to make it work at higher levels, especially from the perspective of the wizard. For the most obvious example, you can use Wish to replicate the Glyph spell for 1 action and no material component, though you still have the range of "touch" to deal with.

It's worth noting you can use the Glyph to cast concentration-free buffs on yourself, and for this I prefer a "buffing parlor" demiplane. The glyphs are safe there indefinitely, and if the wizard feels he needs any of his buffs he can just pop in to his demiplane, say a word or phrase that triggers the glyphs, then come right back armed with whatever combat buffs he had stored there. My preference for entering a buffing parlor demiplane is having Banishment set as my Contingency. A high level wizard can be set up to auto-fail a CHA save against his own spellcasting DC. You can become a "native" of your demiplane via Clone. So when you say a keyword or make a particular gesture (no action required) you banish yourself. Your body is native to the Demiplane, so that's where you go. You say another keyword and the glyphs activate, filling you full of buffs. Then you can release your concentration (no action required) on Banishment and return to whatever plane you were just on. This means you can do this at any time (it doesn't have to be your turn) and it requires no actions, and no spell slots on the day in question.

You could just as easily have a "summons parlor" demiplane as well, where instead of storing buffs you store spells that summon elementals or demons or whatever, though you'd need to use a means of getting to and from your demiplane via which the summoned creatures could travel back with you. In this case, you'd likely simply use the Demiplane spell itself, since it creates a door they could just follow you through.

[Vorpalchicken]

Can you quote where it says that?

Under the description of various potions it has the clause that the effect (which is often exactly the same as a certain spell effect) doesn't require concentration. For example potions of speed, heroism and flying.



It's worth noting you can use the Glyph to cast concentration-free buffs on yourself

It takes a fairly permissive DM to allow this trick. The first sentence of that spells description is "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures" not "you exploit a loophole to break a fundamental 5e game mechanic."

[Chronos]

Glyph of Warding is also available to bards, wizards (no Wish necessary), and any spellcaster with the Izzet background from Ravnica. And 200 GP isn't all that much of a cost, at high levels, at least for big important fights (you don't want to use it for mook encounters).

[qube]

best 3 things I can come up with are
potions (ex. potion of haste)
items (ex. boots of flying)
Glyph of warding
though the last one needs a complex set up for a PC - in that if you move it more then 10 ft, you lose it, and having a 1 hour casting time makes it slightly unwieldy. The only way around it I found is
cast a couple of them on a Kitkat (upcast for spells > lvl 3 allows a lvl 20 to store up to lvl 7 spells)
cast demiplane (which lasts up to an hour, so you can't cast it first, if you don't want to end up trapped in there)
move Kitkit 5ft, into the demiplane
<adventure, encounter BBEG>
cast demiplane
go to the kitkat, break it to trigger all the spells on it at once
<get kicked of the table for abusive powerplay :smallwink: >

[NaughtyTiger]

It takes a fairly permissive DM to allow this trick. The first sentence of that spells description is "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures" not "you exploit a loophole to break a fundamental 5e game mechanic."

errata has changed Glyph of Warding http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Glyph of Warding (p. 245). The first sentence clarifies that the magical effect needn’t be harmful. The final two sentences of the first paragraph now read as follows: “The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.”

[Man_Over_Game]

errata has changed Glyph of Warding http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Glyph of Warding (p. 245). The first sentence clarifies that the magical effect needn’t be harmful. The final two sentences of the first paragraph now read as follows: “The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.”

So it's still powerful, but nearly impossible to actually abuse (because you can't actually go anywhere with it).

I guess you could do some shenanigans with Scrying or Mislead while you use the Glyph's Concentration to do something else (cast Invisibility or something?).

[Vogie]

You can have your Simulacrum concentrate on things for you, and use Wish to use Glyph of Warding in a single action.


Isn't it like having your Familiar concentrate on a spell?

No. Familiar's can't (EDIT: naturally) concentrate on spells in 5e - even if they deliver a concentration spell, the caster is still you, and you concentrate on it.


By 14th level, you have learned to imprint vestiges of your consciousness on electronic devises with significant computing power. When you cast a concentration spell, you can use a devise whose computing power is equal to or greater than a tablet computer to maintain concentration of the spell on your behalf. The Device must be held or worn by you to maintain this effect. If the device is destroyed, taken from you, dropped, or turned off, the concentration ends. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.

Although, the text of the Technomancy feature is quite similar to the "Familiar Concentration" feat from Kobold Press that was released for 3.5...

[NaughtyTiger]

No. Familiar's can't concentrate on spells in 5e - even if they deliver a concentration spell, the caster is still you, and you concentrate on it.

I agree that if a familiar is "Delivering" a concentration spell, the caster is concentrating on it.

but you are stating that familiars cannot concentrate on a spell that they have cast.
That is not a rule in 5e.

If a familiar can use a ring of spell storing, then they can concentrate on the spell that they cast.
So could the barbarian that is wielding the ring.

[Vogie]

If a familiar can use a ring of spell storing, then they can concentrate on the spell that they cast.
So could the barbarian that is wielding the ring.

That is a feature of the ring of spell storing, not a feature of the familiar.

[NaughtyTiger]

That is a feature of the ring of spell storing, not a feature of the familiar.

what is a feature of the ring? I am not sure what you intended to say.

[Vogie]

what is a feature of the ring? I am not sure what you intended to say.

That the ability for the familiar to cast and/or concentrate on the spell comes from the ring. That's why WHOMEVER wields the ring gets that ability to cast/concentrate on the spell - not just familiars.

Familiars don't get to just automagically concentrate on spells as a part of their rules, as outlined above. It's only the use of the ring that causes an exception of the rule.

Thus, the familiar's ability to concentrate on the spell is a feature of the ring, not on the familiar.




In the same way that a human IRL cannot themselves be suspended in the air between two trees out of their reach. That's not part of their makeup. However, a hammock, net or rope CAN be suspended in the air between two trees, and can hold a person. So if a person is sleeping in a hammock between two trees, the fact that they're off the ground is a feature of the hammock, not of the person.

[NaughtyTiger]

No. Familiar's can't (EDIT: naturally) concentrate on spells in 5


Familiars don't get to just automagically concentrate on spells as a part of their rules, as outlined above. It's only the use of the ring that causes an exception of the rule.
.

If a familiar can cast a spell, that familiar can concentrate on a spell it casts.
A pixie familiar (gods help us all) can cast polymorph and concentrate on it.

The magic device (ring, scroll, tamochoan's bersker axe ) allows the familiar or barbarian to cast a spell. The magic device does not provide the ability to concentrate on the spell; that is innate to casting a spell.


If you have a ring of spell storage, you can give it to your familiar, assuming you have one capable of wearing such an item, and it can cast and concentrate on a spell!
yes. This is even allowed in Adventurer's League.


OP, sorry I derailed this.
Unoriginal is the bomb.

[qube]

You can have your Simulacrum concentrate on things for you, and use Wish to use Glyph of Warding in a single action.
Oooh, good points. So we have


potions (ex. potion of haste)
items (ex. boots of flying)
Glyph of warding
via demiplane to circumvent location limiation
or
using wish to cast GoW to circumvent casting duration.

using someone else to cast the spell
a Simulacrum (who inherets your spellcasting)
an advanced familiar (ex. warlock) with spellcasting capaility of it's own.
a familiar (or retainer, hireling, etc ...) with a ring of spell storing (or other means it can cast a spell)
summon a specific creature with spellcasting capability (ex. Summon Greater Demon)

lvl 14 technomancy*


*Unearthed Arcana (I presume)

[NaughtyTiger]

So it's still powerful, but nearly impossible to actually abuse (because you can't actually go anywhere with it).

I guess you could do some shenanigans with Scrying or Mislead while you use the Glyph's Concentration to do something else (cast Invisibility or something?).

I was convinced that you could shove a high-level hex into it and trigger it. All day hex, no con check and concentrate on something else...
Now I am convinced, that the good part of hex would be on the glyph, and I would get the disad to str checks...

[qube]

I was convinced that you could shove a high-level hex into it and trigger it. All day hex, no con check and concentrate on something else...
Now I am convinced, that the good part of hex would be on the glyph, and I would get the disad to str checks...You could let a mosquito trigger it, and then kill it

[Man_Over_Game]

You could let a mosquito trigger it, and then kill it

But then it's not your spell to cast. It's being held and controlled by the Glyph. If it WAS your spell, then it's also your responsibility to hold the Concentration, which ruins the whole point.

[NaughtyTiger]

But then it's not your spell to cast. It's being held and controlled by the Glyph. If it WAS your spell, then it's also your responsibility to hold the Concentration, which ruins the whole point.

what are your thoughts on conjure elemental in your glyph. would it still be friendly to you and your companions?

[Man_Over_Game]

what are your thoughts on conjure elemental in your glyph. would it still be friendly to you and your companions?

My DM senses are telling me that it'd probably be easiest to say that Glyph of Warding requires any special decision-making to be made at the time the spell is prepared, but no other decisions can be made after that. Similar to Contingency in that regard.

As a result, a Conjure Elemental summon would be friendly but it couldn't take additional commands by anyone, it'd follow the order you specified when you made the Glyph. Hex requires a Bonus Action and a chosen target past the initial casting, so it can't be moved over to another creature.

Glyph of Warding is likely intended to be for spell-traps, and I think that should still be the best use for it. Anything else just seems like a gamist, low-risk decision.


RAW, though, Glyph of Warding summons are hostile to the triggering creature, so I don't think it'd support any conjured creatures being friendly to you.

[qube]

But then it's not your spell to cast. It's being held and controlled by the Glyph. If it WAS your spell, then it's also your responsibility to hold the Concentration, which ruins the whole point.While I see your point - that's arguable as the text doesn't specify it.

In fairness though - in case of debate, I always consider what the DM (opposite to the powerplayer player) would decide - so as far as a ruling goes, I'd agree.

[Bjarkmundur]

I would without a doubt give any of my players double concentration, if it were a vital part of their character archetype or play style.

Like, if that's how it makes sense for his character to play, and how my player enjoys playing him. If it were simply for optimizations purposes, I'd say no.

I'd either give him a resource (like ki) that he could expend as a bonus action to concentrate on the secondary effect.


I cast spell 1 as an action.
I cast spell 2 as an action, and use my bonus action to expend one resource to maintain my concentration on the first spell.


Or I'd say he could juggle to concentrations using an action to maintain it, but would roll for concentration separately.

I cast spell 1 as an action.
I cast spell 2 as a bonus action, and use my action to maintain my concentration on the first spell.

[Nadan]

Niv-Mizzet form Guildmasters' Guide To Ravnica can concentration on two different spells at the same time.
He is the only official creature can do that.

[Greywander]

One idea I heard for a homebrew magic item that allowed double concentration was a magic lantern that could concentrate on a spell for you. When the lantern is concentrating on a spell, it becomes lit, and if the flame goes out, concentration ends. I'm not sure if homebrew is on the table, but I like this as an option. It's finicky enough that it would be difficult to use in combat (it would be very easy for an enemy to snuff out the lantern), while remaining very useful. You could tack on additional restrictions, like requiring attunement and needing to be on your person (if you drop it, the flame goes out), or even require it be held in a free hand the whole time.

Multiple concentration is very powerful, and the game is balanced around not having it. Older editions let you get absolutely ridiculous by stacking on many, many buffs (I think there was something called a Godzilla druid, or something?), and concentration was likely 5e's way of addressing that. It's one of the biggest mechanics that is keeping casters in line with martials instead of exploding past them in power. As such, great care needs to be taken when considering a homebrew or houserule that allows multiple concentration. (By proxy, this should also be considered when creating homebrew spells and deciding if they should require concentration or not.)

Whether intentionally or not, concentration also reinforces the principle of Bounded Accuracy: several weak casters can concentrate on more spells than one strong caster (i.e. numbers can trump strength). This is only tangentially relevant to the thread, but it just occurred to me and I thought it was an interesting observation.

[Damon_Tor]

Niv-Mizzet form Guildmasters' Guide To Ravnica can concentration on two different spells at the same time.
He is the only official creature can do that.

Interesting. So in theory you could forcefully polymorph him into a humanoid and then magic jar him. Not that it would be easy to do it, but possible.

[Damon_Tor]

It may also be worth noting that the artificer's "Spell Storing Item" feature requires neither the artificer creating it nor the end user to actually "cast" the spell in question. As such, it's possible it does not require concentration to maintain the spell produced, depending on your reading of DMG 141.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Interesting. So in theory you could forcefully polymorph him into a humanoid and then magic jar him. Not that it would be easy to do it, but possible.

Polymorph means you lose all features, including the double concentration thing. So no go.

[Chronos]

I'm sure that the Firemind would find your feeble monkey attempts to do that amusing. Make him laugh enough, and he might even leave you alive. He's got a good sense of humor.

[Damon_Tor]

Polymorph means you lose all features, including the double concentration thing. So no go.

Polymorph doesn't last forever, but Magic Jar does, or at least until you slip up and let someone hit you with Dispel Magic. I suppose it could be ruled that once the target of Magic Jar ceases to be a humanoid the effect would end, but I'm not aware there's anything that suggests such a thing should occur.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Polymorph doesn't last forever, but Magic Jar does, or at least until you slip up and let someone hit you with Dispel Magic. I suppose it could be ruled that once the target of Magic Jar ceases to be a humanoid the effect would end, but I'm not aware there's anything that suggests such a thing should occur.

I would absolutely rule that continuous effect spells check target type validity continuously and fail if the target is no longer valid. If someone's transformed into a beast and hit with dominate beast, the spell ends when polymorph does. Down the other path lies shenanigans and illegal situations. Otherwise you can spend 2 4th level spells to get an 8th level spell's effect: polymorph + dominate beast instead of dominate monster. RAW or not, that's more than I can stomach.

But anyway, good luck landing a polymorph on that particular individual.

[Rukelnikov]

The UA Mystics can concentrate on multiple powers with Psionic Mastery

[Seclora]

One idea I heard for a homebrew magic item that allowed double concentration was a magic lantern that could concentrate on a spell for you. When the lantern is concentrating on a spell, it becomes lit, and if the flame goes out, concentration ends. I'm not sure if homebrew is on the table, but I like this as an option. It's finicky enough that it would be difficult to use in combat (it would be very easy for an enemy to snuff out the lantern), while remaining very useful. You could tack on additional restrictions, like requiring attunement and needing to be on your person (if you drop it, the flame goes out), or even require it be held in a free hand the whole time.

Multiple concentration is very powerful, and the game is balanced around not having it. Older editions let you get absolutely ridiculous by stacking on many, many buffs (I think there was something called a Godzilla druid, or something?), and concentration was likely 5e's way of addressing that. It's one of the biggest mechanics that is keeping casters in line with martials instead of exploding past them in power. As such, great care needs to be taken when considering a homebrew or houserule that allows multiple concentration. (By proxy, this should also be considered when creating homebrew spells and deciding if they should require concentration or not.)

Whether intentionally or not, concentration also reinforces the principle of Bounded Accuracy: several weak casters can concentrate on more spells than one strong caster (i.e. numbers can trump strength). This is only tangentially relevant to the thread, but it just occurred to me and I thought it was an interesting observation.

And it lends heavily to the idea of having someone who has trained heavily in combat, a knight or other noble for instance, having an entourage of bards and minstrels following him around offering him buffs and singing his praises. You know, like in the source stories most Fantasy is based in.

Personally, I am okay with allowing a second concentration for my players who want to play like that. I Home-brewed a feat to let your familiar concentrate on spells, and put together a Legendary quality item that allows it.
Also, you know, as a part of a cursed item that let someone else siphon magical energy off of your concentration spells. It was just so tempting for that player, how could I not?
It hasn't really caused any balance problems so far. Generally, I have found that the limits of Action Economy and remembering to have damage break concentration keep things from getting out of hand.

[Aquillion]

Mystics can also cheat it a little bit, although only in a very constrained way.


One idea I heard for a homebrew magic item that allowed double concentration was a magic lantern that could concentrate on a spell for you.My idea for a way to break it was a bard College of Music that can maintain a second spell by playing music in place of concentration, though of course doing so consumes their normal action each round and the spell ends if they stop.

[Greywander]

My idea for a way to break it was a bard College of Music that can maintain a second spell by playing music in place of concentration, though of course doing so consumes their normal action each round and the spell ends if they stop.
This seems like a good way to do it. It comes with a pretty steep cost (your action, ever round, for the duration of the spell), and can be interrupted pretty easily, making it risky to use in combat situations.

Honestly, I think something like this could be a default rule for spell casting. When you concentrate on two spells, it requires so much focus that you have to spend your action to maintain it every round. You might even count as blind (not paying attention) and have disadvantage on concentration checks. It's severely gimped for combat, but opens up some utility uses for double concentration.

Combat does seem to be the usual concern. When you're not under any pressure, it typically wouldn't be a problem to let a caster concentrate on as many spells as they like (usually you can get the same or a similar result, but with more time wasted and a more convoluted plan). Other situations, like stealth, would put some pressure on but still be doable under some types of restrictions.

I've also played with the idea of having all spells use concentration, even instantaneous once (concentration is only used during the instant the spell is cast), but with "concentration slots", of which you get more of as you level. Stronger spells might use more slots (probably determined by spell level, but some of the spells that were already concentration might cost extra). This would let you concentrate on several low level spells, while maybe restricting you to only one higher level spell. Since even instantaneous spells would use concentration, that means that if you're concentrating on too many things, you can't even cast an instant spell without dropping concentration on something else.

All this talk of multiple concentration makes me think of how a party should probably try to make each member a spellcaster, even if it's just Magic Initiate for Bless, Bane, Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil and Good, Heroism, Hex, or other concentration spell, just so the concentration slots aren't wasted. But something like a party of EK fighter, AT rogue, cleric, wizard, and druid can do a lot of fun things with all that concentration.

[qube]

so that gives up


potions (ex. potion of haste)
items (ex. boots of flying)
Glyph of warding
via demiplane to circumvent location limiation (place them in the demiplane, and call upon it when you need them)
or
using wish to cast GoW to circumvent casting duration. (and if you allow it to trigger instantly, you end up with the second spell without concentration)

using someone else to cast the spell
a Simulacrum (who inherets your spellcasting)
an advanced familiar (ex. warlock) with spellcasting capaility of it's own.
a familiar (or retainer, hireling, etc ...) with a ring of spell storing (or other means it can cast a spell)
summon a specific creature with spellcasting capability (ex. Summon Greater Demon)

lvl 14 technomancy*
The Mystics* can concentrate on multiple powers with Psionic Mastery


*Unearthed Arcana[/QUOTE]