Should Tarquin Disappear

[Lord]

Okay, so I've been thinking about Tarquin's plan and what would be an appropriate end for him.

The problem is that if Elan and co ever have another showdown with Tarquin it will be playing into his hands. Tarquin's is a very meta one. He wants to be remembered as a Magnificent Bastard villain who was the main villain of his own story. While that's obviously not going to happen now, he might still end up with a partial victory. In that he might still be remembered as a really good arc villain.

The whole karma of Elan's defeat of him lies in the fact that Elan just dropped the narrative. He let Tarquin fall off the ship and walk his way out of the desert. Tarquin is simply not important anymore. His best subordinate, Malack, is dead, he's lost a large part of his army. And you have a rag group of misfits meeting together to plan a karmic death for him. Or something. Yes, Elan gave them an idea for what they could do, but the group has moved on. And we've already had a rematch.

Yet another showdown with Tarquin would be redundant and largely a foregone conclusion.

The thing is, I don't see any way that the narrative could show Tarquin's fall without lessening the effect of his defeat.

See, Tarquin's empire isn't connected to any of the major villains. Xykon and Redcloak have no reason to go there, and the order has long since moved on. He isn't important to the narrative. So adding a bunch of strips to the story to show how he's defeated is kind of like filler. Especially if none of the main cast were involved.

Yes, we did cut back to the Bandit King and Samantha being killed. But that actually did achieve something in the narrative. It established that Miko was not pure evil, was genuinely well intentioned, was really quick to the trigger, and was incredibly dangerous. The scene had multiple purposes beyond tying up some random side villain who had long since ceased to be relevant.

So I think that the best way Tarquin's story could be wrapped up would be for him to just get defeated offscreen. The Order hears about it later, after the main plot is largely over. With Tarquin just being a footnote. Most of the emphesis would be on the Empress of Blood's fall or whatever, Tarquin is just the evil general who is defeated before the final boss fight.

And maybe he gets thrown in jail or something, and doesn't escape. If only to deny him the dignity of a last stand.

Essential to defeating Tarquin is defeating his status as a badass villain as much as defeating him on a physical plane. So having him be defeated offscreen, with none of the main cast present, seems the ultimate way to knock him out. In fact, I think he should get thrown in jail after lamenting that he would have gotten away with things for not for X factors. Effectively getting the conclusion of a Scooby Doo villain. Which seems like the sort of the sort of plan Elan would make, since I don't think Elan would want to kill Tarquin. Elan didn't even want to kill Nale, and Nale did a lot more horrible things to Elan than Tarquin ever did.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. What do you think the best way to defeat Tarquin on both a narrative and meta level is?

[woweedd]

The most fitting end for Tarquin will be completely offscreen. Heck, have him show up in The Epiprolouge...As "Nameless General Who Died At The Hands of The Hero Ian", with only his hand appearing on-screen as Ian stabs him in the chest.

[Fyraltari]

Tarquin Ha! Now the time has come for the final, epic confrontation between fath...

Xykon Maximized Meteor Swarm.

Redcloak Uh. Who was that guy?

Xykon No idea, but I can’t stand it when no-name filler vilains try to clutter my climatic fights.

Roy Excuse me? We’re kind of the middle of something here.

[hroþila]

The most fitting end for Tarquin will be completely offscreen. Heck, have him show up in The Epiprolouge...As "Nameless General Who Died At The Hands of The Hero Ian", with only his hand appearing on-screen as Ian stabs him in the chest.
It would be fun if for example they got news from the Western continent that said that the three Empires had fallen, with some passing remark about how the rulers and their top generals and officials had been executed after a fair trial. Not even mentioning his name.

[Squire Doodad]

More or less the best way for Tarquin to reappear is to be in the ending or in a remarkably visible newspaper while the characters are prepping for a battle in a town. Something along the lines of a tiny subsection saying "World News: Empire of Blood Falls to Ragtag Rebellion, Insurance Premiums At All Time High. Exclusive: General Tarquin On His Defeat 'Elan, you were supposed to come back to fight me.'" There's no viable way for him to be reintroduced without seriously altering his scenario or without adding another book to the story to account for it. You can't have Elan suddenly redirect things to the Empire of Blood to save/fight/bargain with his father, and Ian already had plot enough to suggest he will be victorious in the long run. You also can't have Tarquin show up at the last minute to ask the Order for help, because that goes against pretty much all of what they spent three quarters of a book doing. There should be some sort of closure for Tarquin, but it should be in the background or completely offscreen.

[Lord]

Tarquin Ha! Now the time has come for the final, epic confrontation between faith...

Xykon Maximized Meteor Swarm.

Redcloak Uh. Who was that guy?

Xykon No idea, but I can’t stand it when no-name filler vilains try to clutter my climatic fights.

Roy Excuse me? We’re kind of the middle of something here.


Out of curiousity what was Tarquin's line going to be? Faith doesn't seem to play a role in anything I've seen Tarquin do.

[Ron Miel]

I take it as a typo for "fath..." As in "between father and son" cut off mid word.

Autocorrect?

[Fyraltari]

Ron Miel is correct.

[Cicciograna]

Tarquin Ha! Now the time has come for the final, epic confrontation between faith...

Xykon Maximized Meteor Swarm.

Redcloak Uh. Who was that guy?

Xykon No idea, but I can’t stand it when no-name filler vilains try to clutter my climatic fights.

Roy Excuse me? We’re kind of the middle of something here.


Out of curiousity what was Tarquin's line going to be? Faith doesn't seem to play a role in anything I've seen Tarquin do.

I'm almost certain he meant to write fath... of "father".

EDIT: swordsag'd.

[Sir_Norbert]

This has been discussed quite a lot, and we've had a few self-proclaimed oracles declaring that to them, it's certain that Tarquin will not be seen again in the comic. Time will tell whether their crystal balls were clear.

I hope they're wrong, for a number of reasons. Tarquin was a major arc villain as well as the father of one of our protagonists; the writing made us care about what happens to the people of his empire, and the minor characters involved with his arc; the undisclosed plan for defeating him is a clear loose end in the story; the arc was left on a massive cliffhanger, with the Snarl erupting close by, with an unknown effect on Laurin.


Essential to defeating Tarquin is defeating his status as a badass villain as much as defeating him on a physical plane. So having him be defeated offscreen, with none of the main cast present, seems the ultimate way to knock him out. In fact, I think he should get thrown in jail after lamenting that he would have gotten away with things for not for X factors. Effectively getting the conclusion of a Scooby Doo villain. Which seems like the sort of the sort of plan Elan would make, since I don't think Elan would want to kill Tarquin. Elan didn't even want to kill Nale, and Nale did a lot more horrible things to Elan than Tarquin ever did.

I don't really get this line of reasoning. Tarquin's status as a badass villain was exposed as a sham, and is now in ruins. His arc is over, and it ended in a satisfying way, with Elan overcoming Tarquin's supposedly win-win situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). What happens to him from here on is only important because we want to know how those loose ends get resolved.

Still, I would agree -- but for different reasons -- that his defeat is most likely to be offscreen. We're (presumably) near the end of book 6, with only one book left, and the main conflict of the Snarl, the Order v. Xykon, and the world's fate needs to be wrapped up in that last book. Tarquin's empire is too remote, he was never all that invested in being a "side" in the Gate conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html), and now his resources are much reduced. And if Tarquin doesn't get himself involved, I don't see the heroes taking time off from the final battle to deal with him either. It might be epilogue material, or it might be that the strike team deals with him while the heroes are busy with Xykon. If it's the latter, then it won't just be there for the sake of wrapping up loose ends; it will also connect with the main story in some way we can't guess yet. But again, given that one of the rifts is in Tarquin's back yard, it doesn't seem at all implausible that the two will end up connected.

[Squire Doodad]

This has been discussed quite a lot, and we've had a few self-proclaimed oracles declaring that to them, it's certain that Tarquin will not be seen again in the comic. Time will tell whether their crystal balls were clear.

I hope they're wrong, for a number of reasons. Tarquin was a major arc villain as well as the father of one of our protagonists; the writing made us care about what happens to the people of his empire, and the minor characters involved with his arc; the undisclosed plan for defeating him is a clear loose end in the story; the arc was left on a massive cliffhanger, with the Snarl erupting close by, with an unknown effect on Laurin.



I don't really get this line of reasoning. Tarquin's status as a badass villain was exposed as a sham, and is now in ruins. His arc is over, and it ended in a satisfying way, with Elan overcoming Tarquin's supposedly win-win situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). What happens to him from here on is only important because we want to know how those loose ends get resolved.

Still, I would agree -- but for different reasons -- that his defeat is most likely to be offscreen. We're (presumably) near the end of book 6, with only one book left, and the main conflict of the Snarl, the Order v. Xykon, and the world's fate needs to be wrapped up in that last book. Tarquin's empire is too remote, he was never all that invested in being a "side" in the Gate conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0912.html), and now his resources are much reduced. And if Tarquin doesn't get himself involved, I don't see the heroes taking time off from the final battle to deal with him either. It might be epilogue material, or it might be that the strike team deals with him while the heroes are busy with Xykon. If it's the latter, then it won't just be there for the sake of wrapping up loose ends; it will also connect with the main story in some way we can't guess yet. But again, given that one of the rifts is in Tarquin's back yard, it doesn't seem at all implausible that the two will end up connected.

I am almost certain he will appear again, just not actually doing anything or in any way relevant. The most significant thing I could think of would be a view of Girard's rift going crazy with Tarquin looking concerned at it from a distance. Or maybe he sends a fleet of airships to the north that get hit by an errant Meteor Swarm, which then raises the question of how he found out where it is, among other things. He's far more likely to be beaten offscreen in the epilogue like you said.

[Fyraltari]

Jokes aside, I think the Vector Legion will show up North as the new pawns of the IFCC as the Directors need a way to get involved, the VL has a snarl problem to fix and they both know Sabine.

Therefore I nominate Sabine as most likely to kill Tarquin, thus betraying the IFCC to avenge Nale.

EDIT: Oh and Tarquin won't be in command of the Vector Legion. I'm betting on Shoulderpads Guy purely because "why not?"

[Squire Doodad]

Jokes aside, I think the Vector Legion will show up North as the new pawns of the IFCC as the Directors need a way to get involved, the VL has a snarl problem to fix and they both know Sabine.

Therefore I nominate Sabine as most likely to kill Tarquin, thus betraying the IFCC to avenge Nale.
There are three people who can kill Tarquin:
Ian Starshine, Sabine, and Mrs. Doom leader.

[Fyraltari]

There are three people who can kill Tarquin:
Ian Starshine, Sabine, and Mrs. Doom leader.

You mean Captain Amun-Zora (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html)?

[Rakoa]

Tarquin will always be the best in my heart...

[Rrmcklin]

Jokes aside, I think the Vector Legion will show up North as the new pawns of the IFCC as the Directors need a way to get involved, the VL has a snarl problem to fix and they both know Sabine.

Therefore I nominate Sabine as most likely to kill Tarquin, thus betraying the IFCC to avenge Nale.

EDIT: Oh and Tarquin won't be in command of the Vector Legion. I'm betting on Shoulderpads Guy purely because "why not?"

I've never gotten this either - why should I care about Nale being avenged or Sabine getting to do it? You say the IFCC "needs a way to get involved" as if they don't already have that in the form of both their time with V and other agents, including Sabine who you named.


But more related to the OP, the reason myself and many others are fairly sure Tarquin and his group want be seen again or only as footnote is because the entire point of his arc/downfall was literally that he's not the main villain who gets a climactic down fall, and, more importantly, actually saving the people he's terrorizing is more important than making him suffer or worrying about whether he gets what he wants, or anything like that.

So to hammer that point in, but still go "okay, so I do I make Tarquin and his gang appear for this big thing to be taken out" seems like missing the point entirely. As does going "we don't even know what Elan's plan was". Sure, we might find out what Elan did but there's no actual reason for us to see it happen at this point.

[Fyraltari]

I've never gotten this either - why should I care about Nale being avenged or Sabine getting to do it?
You say the IFCC "needs a way to get involved" as if they don't already have that in the form of both their time with V and other agents, including Sabine who you named.


But more related to the OP, the reason myself and many others are fairly sure Tarquin and his group want be seen again or only as footnote is because the entire point of his arc/downfall was literally that he's not the main villain who gets a climactic down fall, and, more importantly, actually saving the people he's terrorizing is more important than making him suffer or worrying about whether he gets what he wants, or anything like that.

So to hammer that point in, but still go "okay, so I do I make Tarquin and his gang appear for this big thing to be taken out" seems like missing the point entirely. As thus going "we don't even know what Elan's plan was". Sure, we might find out what Elan did but there's no actual reason for us to see it happen at this point.
Well, that rather depends on wether you cared about Sabine and Nale in the first place.
Tarquin's defeat is that he won't get to be the big vilain, or be central to Elan's life. Having him be killed by another vilain still accomplishes that. Especially if he doesn't get to boss the Vector Legion around to hammer home how insignificant he really is in the grand scheme of things. Think Saruman in Return of the King.

Why I think Sabine will show up again is twofold.
First this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html). This strip is about Sabine and Qarr discussing wether aher allegiance to Nale takes precedence over her allegiance to the Directors, with Qarr making a death threat should it do so and it ends with her telling Nale she is "right behind [him.] All the way". The strip is even called "Where her loyalties lie". This is heavy foreshadowing that Sabine would chose Nale over the directors even if it kills her, and yet Nale dies without her loyalties tested. And we are then shown that Sabine is furious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html) over his death.

Second, we don't know what the Directors' plan is so it's hard to guess what they will do, but they had pawns in the form of the Linear Guild so it would make sense that they try to replace them and the Vector Legion is precisely what they'd need : an evil adventuring party with an interest in the Gates. Why would they need pawns, you ask? Because whatever their plan is they'd need to do something at some point. Forcing V to time-out is fine and all but that doesn't give them the ability to make anything happen. It gives them, for example, no control over Xykon who they went to lenght to get where he is now. Aren't their current agents enough? Well unless you think the giant is going to produce some never-seen before evil adventurers in the middle of the arctic, in the last book when he already has a party with reasons to get involved, their agents are Sabine and Qarr. So basically, just Sabine. She's badass and all, but I don't think she can survive Kraagor's Tomb on her own. I mean Roy beat her when whatever is inside gives Team Evil a run for their money.

[Lord]

The only possible way I could see Tarquin reappearing in a way that might actually mesh would be in the form of a semi-redemption. In the sense that he realizes he will never be the main villain, so he decides instead to try and fulfill another role in the story and die to help stop the major villain. This would give him a character arc that wouldn't be completely beyond the bounds of possibility.

Choosing to embrace another role in the story that he might actually be able to fulfill seems to me the only real direction his character could take. And when he eventually gets killed advancing a major plot point or something, or maybe making a heroic sacrifice, he would, in a sense, earn a resolution to his story.

Even I really don't see it happening. Too much work has been going into showing how vile Tarquin is. And I doubt his ego would be enough to get over it. And I wouldn't find the resolution nearly as poetic as simply dropping the storyline. Plus, the geography is just not in his favor. We're approaching a climax to the entire story, and Tarquin hasn't been around nearly long enough toconstitute a main character outside of his own arc.

In any event, I do like the idea of him being alive at the end of the storyline. After all, part of gambit was that he'd either die quickly after years of living like a king, or rule for the rest of his life and be a karma houdini. If he just gets thrown in prison, or forced to become a wandering vagabond for the rest of his life, it's that much more karmic. Since he has to live with his failure.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, that rather depends on whether you cared about Sabine and Nale in the first place.

Whether I cared about them or not really seems besides the point, I think. The Giant has made a big deal about characters' deaths always coming from their own choices/actions and such. Hence was the case with Nale - he was mass murdering egomaniac who was too stupid to realize what the actual implications of telling his father, who was also both of those things, that he didn't want any special treatment or favor for him. That is not the kind of character I see the Giant having "avenged". His death was entirely his own fault, and fully deserved.


Tarquin's defeat is that he won't get to be the big villain, or be central to Elan's life. Having him be killed by another villain still accomplishes that. Especially if he doesn't get to boss the Vector Legion around to hammer home how insignificant he really is in the grand scheme of things. Think Saruman in Return of the King.

His insignificance was already hammered in though. I get what point you're trying to make, but to my mind nothing sales that point more than it simply happening off-screen, as a foot note. Tying it to anything more importance, is giving Tarquin importance and prominence by default.


Why I think Sabine will show up again is twofold.
First this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html). This strip is about Sabine and Qarr discussing wether aher allegiance to Nale takes precedence over her allegiance to the Directors, with Qarr making a death threat should it do so and it ends with her telling Nale she is "right behind [him.] All the way". The strip is even called "Where her loyalties lie". This is heavy foreshadowing that Sabine would chose Nale over the directors even if it kills her, and yet Nale dies without her loyalties tested. And we are then shown that Sabine is furious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html) over his death.

Fair point, but there could certainly be other ways to bring this up that doesn't also undermine another (in my opinion, more) major point of the same arc.


Second, we don't know what the Directors' plan is so it's hard to guess what they will do, but they had pawns in the form of the Linear Guild so it would make sense that they try to replace them and the Vector Legion is precisely what they'd need : an evil adventuring party with an interest in the Gates. Why would they need pawns, you ask? Because whatever their plan is they'd need to do something at some point. Forcing V to time-out is fine and all but that doesn't give them the ability to make anything happen. It gives them, for example, no control over Xykon who they went to lenght to get where he is now. Aren't their current agents enough? Well unless you think the giant is going to produce some never-seen before evil adventurers in the middle of the arctic, in the last book when he already has a party with reasons to get involved, their agents are Sabine and Qarr. So basically, just Sabine. She's badass and all, but I don't think she can survive Kraagor's Tomb on her own. I mean Roy beat her when whatever is inside gives Team Evil a run for their money.

The Vector Legion, don't have an interest in the gates though, not as a whole anyway. Tarquin outright said he was probably going to destroy it, Laurin and Miron might be dead, and I doubt the others would be willing to stick their noses further into the business.

A consistent point about the Vector Legion is that they were happen where they were - they have no world dominating ambitions or interests in things beyond their territory. They really don't strike me as the type to get even further involved with something that's already proven to be dangerous when you pick at it. And that's not even getting into how the IFCC would make them "pawns" in the first place.

[Knaight]

Whether I cared about them or not really seems besides the point, I think. The Giant has made a big deal about characters' deaths always coming from their own choices/actions and such. Hence was the case with Nale - he was mass murdering egomaniac who was too stupid to realize what the actual implications of telling his father, who was also both of those things, that he didn't want any special treatment or favor for him. That is not the kind of character I see the Giant having "avenged". His death was entirely his own fault, and fully deserved.

Him being avenged doesn't take away from that at all though - and if we're talking about flaws Tarquin failing to understand that people have others who are genuinely close to them, care for them, and seek to avenge their death is entirely appropriate. It's one of several of his actions that could easily come around back to him. He's gone around wronging a huge number of people and leaving them with grudges, confidence in his own narrative importance making him invincible to them. Getting shaked by Sabine after explicitly saying that nobody cares about Nale enough to go after him? That feeds into that.

It's far from the only option, however. There's always the Ian-Amun-Ganji-Enor rebellion.

[understatement]

An offhand footnote at the bottom of a panel would be pretty sweet.

[Morty]

I think that Tarquin being undone by Amun-Zora, Ian, Ganji and Enor would be more appropriate than if he got involved in the "endgame" of the story and was killed by Sabine in revenge. Both of those would give him a measure of the narrative weight he craves, though nowhere near being the main villain killed in a climactic battle by the main hero. If he were to instead unceremoniously fall to a well-executed plan by people whose existence he briefly deigned to acknowledge when it was convenient to him... I'd like that a lot more.

[Lord]

Him being avenged doesn't take away from that at all though - and if we're talking about flaws Tarquin failing to understand that people have others who are genuinely close to them, care for them, and seek to avenge their death is entirely appropriate. It's one of several of his actions that could easily come around back to him. He's gone around wronging a huge number of people and leaving them with grudges, confidence in his own narrative importance making him invincible to them. Getting shaked by Sabine after explicitly saying that nobody cares about Nale enough to go after him? That feeds into that.

It's far from the only option, however. There's always the Ian-Amun-Ganji-Enor rebellion.

Sabine killing Tarquin would be a perfectly karmic ending. Hopefully, after he loses everything to the Ian-Amun-Ganji-Enor rebellion. The problem, however, is that said rebellion would have to take place within the bounds of the narrative. It would have to tie into the events of the overall plot, otherwise it would basically be filler.

However, within the bounds of the story, Tarquin is in no position to get involved again. His interests are all close to home, he's got serious problems he has to take care of there. And he doesn't even know where the last gate is. So Tarquin's death would have to be a side story, one that would take a decent amount of time to achieve.

In addition, showing his defeat would ultimately give him a certain dignity on the meta level. One that takes away from the karmic nature of Elan dropping the subplot.

[Windscion]

I've always assume that the plan (Elan's plan, anyway) for Tarquin was to expose the VL's manipulations and make it difficult for them to rule from behind the scenes. And to do so in a series of comical plays with Tarquin as the fool who thinks he is the hero.

[Rrmcklin]

Him being avenged doesn't take away from that at all though - and if we're talking about flaws Tarquin failing to understand that people have others who are genuinely close to them, care for them, and seek to avenge their death is entirely appropriate. It's one of several of his actions that could easily come around back to him. He's gone around wronging a huge number of people and leaving them with grudges, confidence in his own narrative importance making him invincible to them. Getting shaked by Sabine after explicitly saying that nobody cares about Nale enough to go after him? That feeds into that.

It's far from the only option, however. There's always the Ian-Amun-Ganji-Enor rebellion.

I'd say it does, actually. I have no sympathy for Nale or Sabine, nor do I think we're supposed to. His death being avenged is a "dignity" he did nothing to deserve and not something I'd say adds weight to the story. I also don't think that's an appropriate "lesson" for Tarquin because those are things he understands; that's why he killed Nale in the first place.

Saying Nale wouldn't have anyone who care doesn't mean he doesn't understand those things, it means he understood that the vast majority of people hated Nale, or otherwise weren't attached to him enough to try and do anything about his death, which is factually true. He was just wrong about it being absolutely no one, but given Sabine is a being of pure evil and lust and stuff, not expecting that of her is fairly reasonable.


I think that Tarquin being undone by Amun-Zora, Ian, Ganji and Enor would be more appropriate than if he got involved in the "endgame" of the story and was killed by Sabine in revenge. Both of those would give him a measure of the narrative weight he craves, though nowhere near being the main villain killed in a climactic battle by the main hero. If he were to instead unceremoniously fall to a well-executed plan by people whose existence he briefly deigned to acknowledge when it was convenient to him... I'd like that a lot more.

I don't expect to see what happens, but that does strike me as more likely. While keeping Tarquin out of narrative importance is a definitive thing, I'd also that Sabine's grudges just flat out aren't that important. At least, not important enough to warrant their own side plot in the final book.

[Squire Doodad]

If you REALLY want to make Tarquin insignificant, have him die in the last book. In a very specific way, mind you:
Xykon is fighting the Order
Xykon prepares to cast very powerful spell that fires in an arc (probably a customized version of Maximized Meteor Swarm after being hit by a series of buffs), maybe claiming that he can afford to blow them all up to Pandemonium and back because Xykon will just regenerate via phylactery.
Xykon gets his arm shoved out of the way or is slightly disrupted or something that causes him to misfire
Spell beam is seen flying out of the Northern Lands and towards the Western Continent.
Cut to Tarquin and some other members of the VL talking on an open balcony
Beam strikes the balcony, vaporizing them
Cut back to the fight, where one of the party briefly ponders where it landed before deciding it wasn't important.



Now that I think about it though, Tarquin isn't going to *die*, that would interfere with Elan's promised happy ending (he doesn't want his father to die even though he is clearly evil and a terrible person). Instead, I would expect Tarquin to be completely defeated, probably living in prison for the last of his years.

[Lacuna Caster]

The problem is that if Elan and co ever have another showdown with Tarquin it will be playing into his hands. Tarquin's is a very meta one. He wants to be remembered as a Magnificent Bastard villain who was the main villain of his own story. While that's obviously not going to happen now, he might still end up with a partial victory. In that he might still be remembered as a really good arc villain.
I actually find it irritating that the question of whether Tarquin is satisfied with his arc or not is considered the primary problem here- as opposed to, say, whether Tarquin stormed back to his capital in a huff after the airship scene and ordered a hundred new slaves to their death in the arena to amuse himself.

Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.

[Snails]

I actually find it irritating that the question of whether Tarquin is satisfied with his arc or not is considered the primary problem here- as opposed to, say, whether Tarquin stormed back to his capital in a huff after the airship scene and ordered a hundred new slaves to their death in the arena to amuse himself.

Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.

I find your line of thinking very persuasive.

[woweedd]

I actually find it irritating that the question of whether Tarquin is satisfied with his arc or not is considered the primary problem here- as opposed to, say, whether Tarquin stormed back to his capital in a huff after the airship scene and ordered a hundred new slaves to their death in the arena to amuse himself.

Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.
The fight against Tarquin is very meta.

[Lombard]

Personally if I was Tarquin and I found things out about the Snarl- which appears to be fairly likely given what we saw at the end of the last arc- I would be highly motivated to do whatever I could to prevent the world from being destroyed. That would represent his entire storyline being thrown into the dustbin. Many might feel that way, but Tarquin actually has the resources to take significant action. I expect him to be clever enough to investigate and figure things out to a certain extent, and decisive enough to take action... meaning he will probably appear in the story again.

[Vulkos]

Tarquin giving up on chasing his son? No way.
We've been shown him researching the Gate, so I suppose he will eventually rash to the last one.

I agree to an anti-climactic demise, though, maybe by Sabine's hand (getting killed by a villain is surely not a main villain thing), so -maybe- he could be recruited by IFCC thus finally marking Sabine's betrayal.

[Fyraltari]

Whether I cared about them or not really seems besides the point, I think.
You asked why you would care about Sabine killing Tarquin over Nale's death so no, I don't think it is besides the point.

The Giant has made a big deal about characters' deaths always coming from their own choices/actions and such. Hence was the case with Nale - he was mass murdering egomaniac who was too stupid to realize what the actual implications of telling his father, who was also both of those things, that he didn't want any special treatment or favor for him. That is not the kind of character I see the Giant having "avenged". His death was entirely his own fault, and fully deserved.
How is that different from Malack's death?




His insignificance was already hammered in though. I get what point you're trying to make, but to my mind nothing sales that point more than it simply happening off-screen, as a foot note. Tying it to anything more importance, is giving Tarquin importance and prominence by default.
So? Yes, Tarquin dying off-screen would hammer the point more, but it does it have to be hammered as much as possible? Sabine deserves an ending too and denying it to her because it would diminishes Tarquin's is, paradoxically enough, giving Tarquin importance.




Fair point, but there could certainly be other ways to bring this up that doesn't also undermine another (in my opinion, more) major point of the same arc.
Like what? Nale is d-e-a-d dead and the Directors had nothing to do with it so how could that plot point show up again without Sabine's revenge conflicting with the IFCC's interests?
Also this is not a dichotomy, the Giant can bring Tarquin back without undermining his resolution, all that needs to happen is him not meeting Elan/the Order before dying, hell the order could have round II with the Vector Legion without Tarquin, for extra irony points.




The Vector Legion, don't have an interest in the gates though, not as a whole anyway. Tarquin outright said he was probably going to destroy it, Laurin and Miron might be dead, and I doubt the others would be willing to stick their noses further into the business.

A consistent point about the Vector Legion is that they were happen where they were - they have no world dominating ambitions or interests in things beyond their territory. They really don't strike me as the type to get even further involved with something that's already proven to be dangerous when you pick at it. And that's not even getting into how the IFCC would make them "pawns" in the first place.
Tarquin had no interest in it when he believed it was the plan of some loser Zykon for world domination, but now that there's an eldritch abomination poking out in their territory... well the Vector Legion didn't conquer half a continent by ignoring threats. I also doubt Miron and Laurin are dead, since, you know, Miron can Teleport.
I'm not saying they'd try to use the Snarl to take over the world (though they probably would if they reasonnably could) but they can't rule a continent if the world is destroyed. As for how the IFCC would use them, well that's easy, Sabine dropping by telling them about the Gate on the North Pole and the Lich trying to tame the Sanrl. after that it depends on what they are trying to achieve in the first place.

[BaronOfHell]

In regards to Tarquin's "I win no matter what" speech, why care about the villains arbitrary criteria for loss or win? He does his villain stuff, the heroes stop him, why care that he thinks that makes him the winner somehow?

If Miko had proclaimed and maintained the belief that she would have been the "winner" during the whole execution of Shojo deal, I don't really think it would have mattered in any way except I would probably feel even more sad for Miko who at least at the end (in my opinion) seemed to have realized that perhaps what she did was not the good way.

[hroþila]

In regards to Tarquin's "I win no matter what" speech, why care about the villains arbitrary criteria for loss or win? He does his villain stuff, the heroes stop him, why care that he thinks that makes him the winner somehow?

If Miko had proclaimed and maintained the belief that she would have been the "winner" during the whole execution of Shojo deal, I don't really think it would have mattered in any way except I would probably feel even more sad for Miko who at least at the end (in my opinion) seemed to have realized that perhaps what she did was not the good way.
An ending where Roy just shut him up would have been possible and satisfying, sure, but they were in no position to pull it off anyway. Elan wants to defeat Tarquin narratively largely because that's the way he looks at things, but also because he doesn't want him to become a legend and a source of inspiration for other folks who would become villains down the road. Plus, narrative forces are totally real in this universe, so in his own way Elan is simply trying to find the most effective solution to the Tarquin problem — a problem they can't deal with personally right now, remember, so it's not like "get the team together and kick his ass in a straight fight" is an option.

[Mightymosy]

I actually find it irritating that the question of whether Tarquin is satisfied with his arc or not is considered the primary problem here- as opposed to, say, whether Tarquin stormed back to his capital in a huff after the airship scene and ordered a hundred new slaves to their death in the arena to amuse himself.

Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.

Exactly!

If you consider how you can defeat Tarquin without making him look awesome, then you already buy into his view on what's important.

If - strategically - the best option to take him out was a climactic duel of son vs father on the palace doorsteps, THEN YOU SHOULD DO THAT, regardless of what Tarquin says!

Assume Elan defeats Tarquin in such a duel, who wins?

Everyone who is now free of the tyrant! No more burned slaves!

Who loses?
TARQUIN!
Tarquin died (painfully) and then goes to hell.
Where he presumably gets appropriate punishment (think about the choire of dead pedophiles and remember Tarquin is, among other things, a rapist.you might get ideas)
If Tarquin considers this scenario "winning", then let him have it.


Also, he already is an awesome antagonist for a lot of readers. That ship has sailed, and nothing short of heavy retcons might have a chance to change that.

What's important is not how Tarquin feels about things. What's important is that his victims are freed.


Consider the following dialogue, which DID NOT happen in Silence of the lambs, mostly because the writers did not suck completely:

Clarice points a gun at Hannibal Lecter.
Clarice: FBI! You are under arrest, on account of murder and cannibalism!
Hannibal: Oh, wait a second...
Clarice: Drop everything and put your hands behind your head!
Hannibal: Now wait.....
Clarice: What?
Hannibal: Did you know that I always wanted to go to jail? I really enjoy it there.
Clarice: What are you talking about???? Don't move!! I shoot you if you make one more step!
Hannibal: Actually that doesn't sound too bad either.....I have always been curious how hell looks like. Death doesn't frighten me.
Clarice: ...
Hannibal: Go ahead, your choice. Arrest me or shoot me. I get what I want either way.
Clarice: Screw that, I don't know what to do now. I guess I just let you walk away, then.
Hannibal: (And that's how I got my PhD in psychology...)

[Ron Miel]

Tarquin giving up on chasing his son? No way.
We've been shown him researching the Gate, so I suppose he will eventually rash to the last one.

I doubt it, he decided that capturing the gate is a bad plan with "too many moving parts."

[Peelee]

Exactly!

If you consider how you can defeat Tarquin without making him look awesome, then you already buy into his view on what's important.

If - strategically - the best option to take him out was a climactic duel of son vs father on the palace doorsteps, THEN YOU SHOULD DO THAT, regardless of what Tarquin says!

Assume Elan defeats Tarquin in such a duel, who wins?

Everyone who is now free of the tyrant! No more burned slaves!

Who loses?
TARQUIN!

Because Stickworld is a self-aware parody world and not real-life. They've been over this whole "not not just kill him" thing with Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).

[Kish]

The fight against Tarquin is very meta.
There are three different levels here.

First, there's the level of what the Order is planning to do. That's clear: They're going to deal with the Vector Legion as soon as they're no longer involved in trying to prevent a much bigger villain from bringing about the literal end of the world.

Second, there's the level of what they could have done in the final scene. Someone could potentially argue that Elan could have played along to get Tarquin on board the ship and then had Roy chop his head off or Vaarsuvius keep Disintegrating him until he failed his save and/or ran out of hit points, but that would be an utterly unrealistic thing to expect Elan to do, and "the good guys don't kill villains who are not actively attacking them at that moment" is far from a concept Rich invented. One could argue that, if Elan had taken Tarquin prisoner as Tarquin tried to get him to, Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) or Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html), in light of their established willingness to kill enemies who aren't threatening them at that precise moment, should have said some variation on, "And now, Elan, regardless of what you thought was going to happen, your father is about to die." But even if they did, betting that the low-epic Vector Legion might have access to True Resurrection would be critically different from, e.g., assuming that a 14th-level aristocrat with one wizard who can cast Teleport must have massive unhinted-at magical resources, and Haley already established that she was (rationally or otherwise) going to proceed on the assumption that the much lower-level Nale would be True Resurrected if the Order killed him. In any case that was never a situation they were going to get to; Elan's choice at the end of the book was to go along with Tarquin's desire to remain in the story or not, and of the two choices he had he made the right one.

Third, there's the level on which the important thing is that Tarquin's defining features--his narrative fixation and narcissism--were turned against him. That's the our-world level; no decisions by characters, only decisions by Rich Burlew as a writer. No one has actually been burned alive or will be; what matters is what makes a compelling story (to people who care about personalities, not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15058320&postcount=472) to people who care about optimized mechanical power). Any concerns about "but Tarquin can kill a hundred more people in a fit of pique!" are simply addressed by never actually putting any of the Order in a situation of "you have the choice of permanently stopping him or not permanently stopping him."

[Lord]

Also, keep in mind that even if Tarquin personally doesn't benefit and goes to hell, there is his legacy to consider. Imagine a world where Tarquin's philosophy that evil must exist for any kind of good story to be told caught hold? The way Tarquin has framed thing, the evil emperor always wins. If people start believing that it might result in a much larger slide towards evil.

And if people took the philosophy seriously, you might end up with all kinds of other unpleasant ideologies cropping up. The balance between good and evil was a disaster in dragonlance, and it will be a disaster here. And that's ultimately where Tarquin's worldview leads. To the concept that all the horrific crimes he commits are somehow necessary and that the the world would cease to exist without them. Rather than just being a much better place.

So there is merit to seeking an ideological win over Tarquin, and ensuring that his defeat is unceremonious. Certainly Elan, with his grasp of narrative structures, would want Tarquin to suffer a karmic defeat. And a karmic defeat for Tarquin has to hammer in his own unimportance.

[BaronOfHell]

Elan wants to defeat Tarquin narratively largely because that's the way he looks at things, but also because he doesn't want him to become a legend and a source of inspiration for other folks who would become villains down the road.

That is the speech I was thinking about. However if we are to acknowledge the issue Tarquin presents, why not worry about the Red Cloak or Xykon becoming inspiring legends of evil?

I understand it is an issue for Elan, but unless I miss why the issue is unique when fighting Tarquin or if the issue isn't otherwise dealt with against other high level villains, then I don't believe the issue is very important to begin with. E.g. I don't think it would be the first time Tarquin has tried to present his version of reality as what is.

Btw. this isn't an attempt to disregard the speculations of how to avoid Tarquin becoming legend, if someone should think so, I think those speculations are interesting and cool and I like to read about it, I only wonder if it is truly important within the comic.

[Mike Havran]

I think it all depends on what you consider to be defeat of Tarquin.

If it's Tarquin's vision of the second part of 763 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) of being the ultimate antagonist who goes down in climactic battle against his son and becomes an immortalized legend, it has already been defeated. We know, from storyline and the author, that this almost surely won't happen.

If we are talking about Tarquin as an evil general, he wasn't defeated. He was foiled in his attempts. He lost a powerful ally and that is a heavy blow. He also lost weapons and soldiers, these have to be replaced. But in the end he is still in power, he still has many resources, he still has allies, his people still suffer.

If we are talking about Tarquin's original plan he explains in flashback in 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), that one has already succeeded. Tarquin did become wealthy and powerful puppet master and he has been dancing on people's faces in ironclad boots for twenty years or so. Sure, that day he got ousted out of the ship sucked, but you can't have everything. Now, he would surely have preferred his climactic duel, but he might just as well revert to his older plot in order to protect his ego from admitting failure in the desert.

So whether Tarquin is ''truly'' defeated largely hinges on Tarquin himself admitting his defeat, and why should the main narrative care about that, instead of just removing him from position to hurt people?

My personal option is that the main comic ends without resolution of the Western Continent subplot, but that it will appear as a part of Linear Guild book that would have Sabine and Nale as villain protagonists and the Vector Legion as main antagonists (and perhaps a brief appearance of the Order by the end). There are many hints that there is already a developed story behind, but it will be detrimental to the comic to insert it in the main plot.

Tarquin dying offscreen ain't going to happen, IMO. That's like the biggest cliché there is, Disney villain death and all that, Elan and Nale even discuss (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) it openly. On the other hand, Tarquin dying onscreen in some horribly clichéd manner woud be fitting, and is my personal favorite. Exile or prison are nothing to a powerful charactel like Tarquin, and some of the more gruesome commeuppances that were suggested six years ago when this was a hot topic would have probably given the comic a vibe it doesn't want.

Tarquin being undone by the Snarl in the Girard's rift is a distinct possibility, but would render Elan's plan inconsequential, as it almost surely doesn't involve Snarl in any way.

[Peelee]

That is the speech I was thinking about. However if we are to acknowledge the issue Tarquin presents, why not worry about the Red Cloak or Xykon becoming inspiring legends of evil?

Xykon - give up humanity, lose all senses that give pleasure, have nothing to show for efforts.
Redcloak - be lackey to that, despite being high priest of his God and likely the most powerful goblin that ever lived.
Tarquin - like like king for multiple decades, surrounded by opulence.

Yeah, I don't think a lot of people would hear about Reddie and X and think, "that's my 5-year plan there."

[Fish]

It doesn’t matter if Rich shows Tarquin’s end; it won’t feed Tarquin’s ego at all. Characters have shown that they know they’re in a comic, and when the action cuts away. Tarquin would particularly resent it.

Tarquin: This is humiliating. I haven’t even had a cutaway panel in I don’t know how long!

Kilkil: Time for your 2:00 meeting with that master thief and the pair of bounty hunters.

Tarquin: And now I’m about to be defeated in a comic-relief interstitial between the main plot points! This is degrading.

[Peelee]

It doesn’t matter if Rich shows Tarquin’s end; it won’t feed Tarquin’s ego at all. Characters have shown that they know they’re in a comic, and when the action cuts away. Tarquin would particularly resent it.

Tarquin: This is humiliating. I haven’t even had a cutaway panel in I don’t know how long!

Kilkil: Time for your 2:00 meeting with that master thief and the pair of bounty hunters.

Tarquin: And now I’m about to be defeated in a comic-relief interstitial between the main plot points! This is degrading.

Considering he thought he was the main vilain, their knowledge of the exact narrative they're in isn't exact.

[woweedd]

Considering he thought he was the main vilain, their knowledge of the exact narrative they're in isn't exact.
Wrong Genre-Savvy, as TV Tropes calls it.

[B. Dandelion]

Like what? Nale is d-e-a-d dead and the Directors had nothing to do with it so how could that plot point show up again without Sabine's revenge conflicting with the IFCC's interests?

Well...

Nale is dead, and was certainly sentenced to one of the lower planes. Sabine is a native to one of those planes herself, and the IFCC Directors have a fair amount of power over them, along with some apparent discretion over what is done with souls. Seems like she might spend some effort trying to find out where specifically he's been sent and see if she can get her bosses to pull some strings on his behalf.

Also, True Resurrection exists. Given the Giant's stated antipathy for the spell, many people expect that it will not ever make a direct appearance in the comic, but it has already been mentioned a few times, most notably in 399 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) where the potential target for a True Resurrection is specifically Nale. Sabine might want to find a cleric, or raise money for the spell.

Her bosses won't likely be sympathetic. Nale was nothing but a pawn to them, and Sabine was sent to him no doubt entirely to manipulate him toward the Director's goals. They probably did not anticipate or desire that Sabine would actually come to care for him, and they would then regard that genuine affection as unprofessional at best. So they will have little tolerance for her continued attachment going forward, and will want her to focus entirely on whatever task they assign her to, which will breed resentment.

So I could potentially see her coming into conflict with the Directors over Nale without the need for bringing a revenge plot against Tarquin into the mix.

[Zenzis]

The problem is that if Elan and co ever have another showdown with Tarquin it will be playing into his hands. Tarquin's is a very meta one. He wants to be remembered as a Magnificent Bastard villain who was the main villain of his own story. While that's obviously not going to happen now, he might still end up with a partial victory. In that he might still be remembered as a really good arc villain.



More or less the best way for Tarquin to reappear is to be in the ending or in a remarkably visible newspaper while the characters are prepping for a battle in a town. Something along the lines of a tiny subsection saying "World News: Empire of Blood Falls to Ragtag Rebellion, Insurance Premiums At All Time High. Exclusive: General Tarquin On His Defeat 'Elan, you were supposed to come back to fight me.'" There's no viable way for him to be reintroduced without seriously altering his scenario or without adding another book to the story to account for it. You can't have Elan suddenly redirect things to the Empire of Blood to save/fight/bargain with his father, and Ian already had plot enough to suggest he will be victorious in the long run. You also can't have Tarquin show up at the last minute to ask the Order for help, because that goes against pretty much all of what they spent three quarters of a book doing. There should be some sort of closure for Tarquin, but it should be in the background or completely offscreen.



Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.


The fight against Tarquin is very meta.

A major developement in the last book for Elan was the realization that stories aren't worth hurting people over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html). This is followed up by a promise by Roy to take on Elan's dad after the world is saved. I'm with Lacuna Caster on this one, in that thinking defeating Tarquin in a way that satisfies his want for a dramatic story is still a good thing. It is better that he not be hurting people anymore than that he doesn't get his story.

[DeliaP]

Spiting Tarquin's sense of self-importance... is still flattering Tarquin's sense of self-importance. But just ending him might have saved lives.


In regards to Tarquin's "I win no matter what" speech, why care about the villains arbitrary criteria for loss or win? He does his villain stuff, the heroes stop him, why care that he thinks that makes him the winner somehow?


Exactly!

If you consider how you can defeat Tarquin without making him look awesome, then you already buy into his view on what's important.

If - strategically - the best option to take him out was a climactic duel of son vs father on the palace doorsteps, THEN YOU SHOULD DO THAT, regardless of what Tarquin says!

Assume Elan defeats Tarquin in such a duel, who wins?

Everyone who is now free of the tyrant! No more burned slaves!

This, this and this, very much!

What's important is putting an end to the tyrannical empire scheme of the VL. Any meta narrative stuff is very, very secondary to that goal. One thing that Tarquin genuinely is good at, is distracting the heroes from realising that, and instead getting them to accept the game being played on his rules (except on his very worst day). The most important way to defeat Tarquin is not to come up with some way he is defeated by his own lights, but to forget all of that distraction and focus on the real problem: putting an end to the tyrannical empire scheme of the VL.

Having said that, I think there will be more of Tarquin, because it's a loose end that simply has to be tied up. Even if he dies off screen, it's an emotional thing for Elan, and marks an important part of his growing maturity, so it will need comment and not just a throwaway line at the bottom of the page.

If it happens in comic, I can quite see Tarquin turning up at the Gate, possibly with VL, possibly on his own, furious that Team Rag-tag-heroes has completely overturned the VL plan (and we then get to find out what Elan suggestions were) and desperately trying to re-impose his own idea of what the narrative should be. And that at a sudden unexpected moment, someone we have met since then turns out to be Sabine in disguise and takes him out, to our surprise (possibly betraying IFCC in the process, maybe).

The other option is an epilogue. Haley and Elan talking, Haley saying you don't have to do this. Elan saying he does. Then he goes to see Tarquin in a cell. Tarquin immediately goes into "Aha, I knew you couldn't resist coming back etc." but Elan just sighs and says "No Dad, once again you have got it wrong, but it doesn't matter anymore. I'm just saying goodbye, because it's something I have to do, for myself. Next week the Free City of Doom will put you on trial and probably execute you. Or not. But it's nothing to do with me. I won't even be around. Goodbye." And then he goes back to Haley and walks off.

What I don't see is Tarquin either forced to wander round as a vagabond or kept in jail for the rest of his life. Why? Because he's a near epic level adventurer and even stripped of all equipment he has gobs of hitpoints, high skills (and probably the charisma based ones too), good saves and a BAB that could punch out most guards. He could walk into a village barehanded and take it over to start again. He could, given time, break out of most prisons. You need epic level guards to keep him safe. (It's a pathological problem with high-level prisoners in D&D).

[SilverCacaobean]

I expect that at some point in the last book we'll learn about the status of the rifts. When learning about the desert rift would be a good opportunity to show the audience that the Empire of Blood has fallen without making it look like filler.

As for whether Tarquin would appear again... I don't know. I don't think that he must not appear or else it would ruin the ending of Blood Runs in the Family, so I think it's possible.

[Synesthesy]

If VL wasn't designed to appear in the last book too, we would have met everyone of his members. Instead, there are at least 2 more.
However, I think that death in the artic will be good for Tarquin, because it's a place so remote that nobody will ever know the story of his death.

Then, the group led by Ian and the girl I don't remember how is called and Enor and Ganji etc will make the revolution and found some kind of right and democratic state. Maybe even some kind of federation that will stop the unending war in the Western Continent.

[Peelee]

If VL wasn't designed to appear in the last book too, we would have met everyone of his members.

I don't see how that follows.

[Fyraltari]

Besides we have. Though Shoulderpad Guy wasn’t named, had only one line and did not do anything noteworthy.

[BaronOfHell]

Xykon - give up humanity, lose all senses that give pleasure, have nothing to show for efforts.
Redcloak - be lackey to that, despite being high priest of his God and likely the most powerful goblin that ever lived.
Tarquin - like like king for multiple decades, surrounded by opulence.

Yeah, I don't think a lot of people would hear about Reddie and X and think, "that's my 5-year plan there."

Very well, I accept your refusal and I'll then up the stakes by adding Laurin (or, I suppose, any member of the VL that isn't Tarquin or Malack) and that mustache guy V disintegrated to the table.

[Kish]

Very well, I accept your refusal and I'll then up the stakes by adding Laurin (or, I suppose, any member of the VL that isn't Tarquin or Malack) and that mustache guy V disintegrated to the table.
:vaarsuvius: Could you narrow it down? I have disintegrated many people with mustaches.

I know you mean Kubota.

[NoHaxJustPi]

This mustache guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html).

[Ruck]

I think we'll find out what happened to Tarquin, but in a very aside manner-- like, as someone suggested, a newspaper article, or maybe like a sending from Ian to Haley along the lines of "Tell your boyfriend his plan worked. I guess he has my blessing, if you want it." I do not expect Elan and Tarquin to interact again.

For example, I agree with this:


What's important is putting an end to the tyrannical empire scheme of the VL. Any meta narrative stuff is very, very secondary to that goal. One thing that Tarquin genuinely is good at, is distracting the heroes from realising that, and instead getting them to accept the game being played on his rules (except on his very worst day). The most important way to defeat Tarquin is not to come up with some way he is defeated by his own lights, but to forget all of that distraction and focus on the real problem: putting an end to the tyrannical empire scheme of the VL.

But not with this:


Having said that, I think there will be more of Tarquin, because it's a loose end that simply has to be tied up. Even if he dies off screen, it's an emotional thing for Elan, and marks an important part of his growing maturity, so it will need comment and not just a throwaway line at the bottom of the page.

If it happens in comic, I can quite see Tarquin turning up at the Gate, possibly with VL, possibly on his own, furious that Team Rag-tag-heroes has completely overturned the VL plan (and we then get to find out what Elan suggestions were) and desperately trying to re-impose his own idea of what the narrative should be. And that at a sudden unexpected moment, someone we have met since then turns out to be Sabine in disguise and takes him out, to our surprise (possibly betraying IFCC in the process, maybe).

The other option is an epilogue. Haley and Elan talking, Haley saying you don't have to do this. Elan saying he does. Then he goes to see Tarquin in a cell. Tarquin immediately goes into "Aha, I knew you couldn't resist coming back etc." but Elan just sighs and says "No Dad, once again you have got it wrong, but it doesn't matter anymore. I'm just saying goodbye, because it's something I have to do, for myself. Next week the Free City of Doom will put you on trial and probably execute you. Or not. But it's nothing to do with me. I won't even be around. Goodbye." And then he goes back to Haley and walks off.

I think Elan had his closure at the end of the last book. I don't think there would be any reason to essentially repeat the scene on the Mechane.

[Rrmcklin]

I think we'll find out what happened to Tarquin, but in a very aside manner-- like, as someone suggested, a newspaper article, or maybe like a sending from Ian to Haley along the lines of "Tell your boyfriend his plan worked. I guess he has my blessing, if you want it." I do not expect Elan and Tarquin to interact again.

For example, I agree with this:



But not with this:



I think Elan had his closure at the end of the last book. I don't think there would be any reason to essentially repeat the scene on the Mechane.

Basically my feelings as well.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It would amuse me greatly if Tarquin’s end came as, for example, the epilogue of a hypothetical Vector Legion prequel book. Something fittingly obscure so that, from the meta level of the audience, his story isn’t as well known. In general my guess is that his end will not come at the hands of the Order, but rather Amun-Zora and her gang.

[Hazlewood]

I suppose the most meta ending would be we've already seen the last of Tarquin. No reappearance, no background reference, no fourth wall breaking, just done with that last panel of him screaming in the desert (936). I feel the comic has outgrown meta for the sake of meta though, so I don't think that would be particularly satisfying or fitting at this point. And as others have already pointed out in this thread, leaving Tarquin unresolved has some unpleasant side-effects given his prior brutality.

I'd favour a scouring of the Shire episode myself: a shrunken, diminished Tarquin, abandoned by his cohorts, ejected from power (perhaps by some new upstart warlord or former ally; I'd rather it not be Ian personally), consumed by bitterness, revenge, and narrative closure, makes some last petty move. Kidnapping Roy's sister Julia perhaps, in an ironic nod to Nale. Not the epic showdown he wants, but some kind of resolution to emphasise the ultimate failure of the character and his philosophy, and his relegation to afterthought secondary villain.

Or here's a crazy idea: in a piece of (probably unintended) foreshadowing, Tsukiko's "most powerful undead warrior he's ever seen ... free-willed and evil and mean, with cool black and red armour" (465) is eventually realised in the form of Tarquin; maybe he tried to jump Xykon to show he's the real villain and got zombied for his trouble.

But one problem with bringing back characters for a final showdown/wrap-up when their arc has already meaningfully ended is that it tends to feel underwhelming, like with the Crystal golem.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Now if only Tsukiko hadn’t been energy drained to death and fed to her own wights, who then ate each other in order of creation, with the last one left setting themselves on fire, that would work.

[Rrmcklin]

And also no one was talking about just leaving Tarquin and the Vector Legion in power - just that their defeat doesn't need to be some major or semi-major thing in story.

[Hazlewood]

Now if only Tsukiko hadn’t been energy drained to death and fed to her own wights, who then ate each other in order of creation, with the last one left setting themselves on fire, that would work.

No need to be snide. I didn't mean literally Tsukiko doing it, just referencing it. I'm sure Xykon or Redcloak could whip something up. Hence "maybe he tried to jump Xykon to show he's the real villain and got zombied for his trouble". It's not a serious idea anyway.

[Peelee]

Or here's a crazy idea: in a piece of (probably unintended) foreshadowing, Tsukiko's "most powerful undead warrior he's ever seen ... free-willed and evil and mean, with cool black and red armour" (465) is eventually realised in the form of Tarquin;

Ya know, if you take away the black and red armor, you basically have Xykon.

[Elanasaurus]

Ya know, if you take away the black and red armor, you basically have Xykon.So this whole zombification thing is unnecessary. Xykon just kills Tarquin and takes his armour.

[understatement]

But Team Evil already has a red-and-black color scheme...it wouldn't fit thematically!

[Riftwolf]

Oh wait, Xykon isn't a warrior.

Never mind it was a dumb idea anyway :p

[Peelee]

Oh wait, Xykon isn't a warrior.

Never mind it was a dumb idea anyway :p

He's not a fighter or barbarian or paladin or any of the whacky hitty classes. He's still a warrior. Dude can throw down with the best of 'em.

[Fyraltari]

He's not a fighter or barbarian or paladin or any of the whacky hitty classes. He's still a warrior. Dude can throw down with the best of 'em.
Being a warrior is more thna just being dangerous. Xykon has no respect for his opponents or for the struggle, he just blasts problems with overwhelming force until they go away or amuses himself by torturing those weaker than him. He doesn't fight for a cause, for the joy of of it or even simply because that's what he's good at. Roy is a warrior, Redcloak is a warrior, Miko was a warrior, Tarquin is a warrior, in his own way Elan is a warrior. Xykon is a bully.

[CriticalFailure]

Xykon fights for his own amusement and his ego. Those two things could be considered his causes.

[understatement]

They're not causes that - uh...well, not sure how to put it but they don't resonate. I think there's more to a warrior than just fighting for indulgence.

[hroþila]

I'd say Xykon totally qualifies as a warrior. Why, he fought a war mere months ago!

[Larre Gannd]

Warriors are usually fighters (not literally the fighter class, but, like melee sort of thing), but don’t have to be, as long as they are experienced and involved in a struggle or conflict. I would argue the Xykon is not particularly invested in any sort of conflict. He is simply trying to find the gate.

[PopeLinus1]

Warriors are usually fighters (not literally the fighter class, but, like melee sort of thing), but don’t have to be, as long as they are experienced and involved in a struggle or conflict. I would argue the Xykon is not particularly invested in any sort of conflict. He is simply trying to find the gate.

Gate? What Gate?

[Squire Doodad]

Gate? What Gate?

The big one, with the cherubim.

[137beth]

I've long thought the best way for Tarquin to go would be at the hands of Sabine. After checking that he doesn't have immunity to energy drain (or figuring out how to remove his immunity), she just surprise attacks him and drains him to death. On the one hand, it would be a death Tarquin would appreciate: Tarquin forgot about Sabine during his villainous speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), and drama dictates that that must come back to bite him. On the other hand, it would be very different from the dramatic main-villain death that Tarquin wants. He would be killed not by a hero with grand plans to save the continent from a tyrant, but by another villain who is already a secondary character, in a short side-story seperate from the main plot.

[Squire Doodad]

I've long thought the best way for Tarquin to go would be at the hands of Sabine. After checking that he doesn't have immunity to energy drain (or figuring out how to remove his immunity), she just surprise attacks him and drains him to death. On the one hand, it would be a death Tarquin would appreciate: Tarquin forgot about Sabine during his villainous speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html), and drama dictates that that must come back to bite him. On the other hand, it would be very different from the dramatic main-villain death that Tarquin wants. He would be killed not by a hero with grand plans to save the continent from a tyrant, but by another villain who is already a secondary character, in a short side-story seperate from the main plot.

I mean, while it would be an appropiate ending, he did not forget about Sabine. Sabine spent at least a little time thinking about killing Nale, though for how long is not clear or relevant. The point is made in comic- Sabine was the only one who truly loved Nale barring Nale himself (Thog gets a mention too but he's kind of dead), but technically Tarquin did not forget them- both of them spent at least some time contemplating Nale being killed. An argument Tarquin would enjoy, no?

[woweedd]

I mean, while it would be an appropiate ending, he did not forget about Sabine. Sabine spent at least a little time thinking about killing Nale, though for how long is not clear or relevant. The point is made in comic- Sabine was the only one who truly loved Nale barring Nale himself (Thog gets a mention too but he's kind of dead), but technically Tarquin did not forget them- both of them spent at least some time contemplating Nale being killed. An argument Tarquin would enjoy, no?
...No, she didn't. That's the point. Tarquin is WRONG, and his own inability to comprehend that other people have opinions that differ from his is one of his main flaws.

[Larre Gannd]

The best way for him to be defeated is if he attacks the order, and they simply ignore him, and his maledictions, until Belkar, the character who had the least to do with Tarquin, jumps on his head, and knocks him off a cliff (which is the same way he was defeated before), and then he instantly dies as he hits the ground, not given the satisfaction of final words.

[Harbinger]

I've always held that the most satisfying conclusion for Tarquin's character arc is for him to show up at the end expecting to be treated as the main villain, only to be casually snuffed out by Xykon. That way his death could serve as further character development for Elan, as well as forcefully showing that his delusions of grandeur are false, and that he was never really anything but a second stringer.

[Peelee]

I've always held that the most satisfying conclusion for Tarquin's character arc is for him to show up at the end expecting to be treated as the main villain, only to be casually snuffed out by Xykon. That way his death could serve as further character development for Elan, as well as forcefully showing that his delusions of grandeur are false, and that he was never really anything but a second stringer.
How?

as well as forcefully showing that his delusions of grandeur are false, and that he was never really anything but a second stringer.
Those were already pretty established. Maybe not to Tarquin, but who cares what he thinks?

[ijuinkun]

It would also give Elan the perfect excuse to declare to Xykon, "My name is Elan. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

[Larre Gannd]

How?

Those were already pretty established. Maybe not to Tarquin, but who cares what he thinks?

Tarquin cares what Tarquin thinks

[woweedd]

Tarquin cares what Tarquin thinks
I repeat: Who cares what Tarquin thinks?

[martianmister]

I repeat: Who cares what Tarquin thinks?

Tarquin cares.

[Larre Gannd]

I repeat: Who cares what Tarquin thinks?
Evil dictators have feelings too!

[Harbinger]

How?

Well, having Tarquin killed in front of Elan would allow him a personal stake in fighting Xykon, while also making him conflicted over whether to feel sad that his dad is dead or relieved that he isn't around to hurt anyone anymore.



Those were already pretty established. Maybe not to Tarquin, but who cares what he thinks?

But having the actual villain demonstrate that would be a nice little stinger. Besides, having Tarquin just never show up again would be kind of disappointing. I know I would like to see Tarquin again, because I think he's a really good character. Also he's most likely one of the 9 sides.

[Rrmcklin]

snip


But having the actual villain demonstrate that would be a nice little stinger. Besides, having Tarquin just never show up again would be kind of disappointing. I know I would like to see Tarquin again, because I think he's a really good character. Also he's most likely one of the 9 sides.


Even good characters can serve their purpose. Being removed before they wear out their welcome is a good thing; for many people Tarquin and his team had already done that.

Being one of the "9 sides" implies that Tarquin cares about what's going on with the Gates, something he explicitly doesn't care about. He was also very explicit in not getting involved with Xykon, the actual main villain of the story, though he obviously wasn't acknowledging that part of it. So much was devoted to how Tarquin wasn't going to get involved with the main plot, that the insistence that he will is honestly kind of strange.

[Peelee]

Well, having Tarquin killed in front of Elan would allow him a personal stake in fighting Xykon, while also making him conflicted over whether to feel sad that his dad is dead or relieved that he isn't around to hurt anyone anymore.

That wouldn't be character development, that would just be a rehash of when Nale died.

[hroþila]

Being one of the "9 sides" implies that Tarquin cares about what's going on with the Gates, something he explicitly doesn't care about.
Personally, I think Tarquin & co. were very much one of the 9 sides, it's just that they're likely out of the race now.

[Larre Gannd]

Being one of the "9 sides" implies that Tarquin cares about what's going on with the Gates, something he explicitly doesn't care about. He was also very explicit in not getting involved with Xykon, the actual main villain of the story, though he obviously wasn't acknowledging that part of it. So much was devoted to how Tarquin wasn't going to get involved with the main plot, that the insistence that he will is honestly kind of strange.
I assume being one of the “9 sides” means that you affect the quest for the gates in some way, which Tarquin certainly does. It doesn’t matter if he cares or not

[Harbinger]

Even good characters can serve their purpose. Being removed before they wear out their welcome is a good thing; for many people Tarquin and his team had already done that.

Being one of the "9 sides" implies that Tarquin cares about what's going on with the Gates, something he explicitly doesn't care about. He was also very explicit in not getting involved with Xykon, the actual main villain of the story, though he obviously wasn't acknowledging that part of it. So much was devoted to how Tarquin wasn't going to get involved with the main plot, that the insistence that he will is honestly kind of strange.

He doesn't care about the gates, but he certainly cares about Elan. From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me. I think that he will definitely connive some way to get his team to come after the Order to get the "proper ending" he thinks he deserves.

I also just think it would be really funny to see him get blasted into dust by Xykon.

[Fyraltari]

I remain amazed by the idea that the proposition that a transdimensional deicidal entity is actively reaching through the broken rift and has done something to Laurin wouldn't change Tarquin's position on wether the Rifts/Gate are worth investigating. Or that, should Trquin be that out-of-touch with reality, Miron, Jacinda, ShoulderPd Guy and Laurin (depneding on how much ability to function she kept) wouldn't overrule him.

[Rrmcklin]

I remain amazed by the idea that the proposition that a transdimensional deicidal entity is actively reaching through the broken rift and has done something to Laurin wouldn't change Tarquin's position on wether the Rifts/Gate are worth investigating. Or that, should Trquin be that out-of-touch with reality, Miron, Jacinda, ShoulderPd Guy and Laurin (depneding on how much ability to function she kept) wouldn't overrule him.

Why? Tarquin was very clear that "bad guys fighting bad guys never ends well", even assuming anything permeant has happened to Laurin and Miron, something I don't because we see them getting out of the way.

And even removing Tarquin, I see no reason that any of the others would be the types to get heavily involved either. You say "transdimensional deicidal entity" as if they have any way of knowing that's even what it is. "investigating the rift" is not synonymous with getting involved with the main plot. They could easily do that with the Rift in the desert without ever leaving the Western Continent.

[Ruck]

I don't think Tarquin's going to have the latitude from the rest of his team to go chasing after Elan, not when his attempts to manipulate his sons have resulted in such calamitous losses, and when his team now has to scramble to figure out how to keep the hustle going without Malack. (Plus, you know, dealing with whatever Elan's plan is.)

(Plus, all the Doylist reasons that every description of what that conflict might be like just sounds like a rehash of the end of Blood Runs in the Family.)

[Rrmcklin]

He doesn't care about the gates, but he certainly cares about Elan. From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me. I think that he will definitely connive some way to get his team to come after the Order to get the "proper ending" he thinks he deserves.

I also just think it would be really funny to see him get blasted into dust by Xykon.


I don't think Tarquin's going to have the latitude from the rest of his team to go chasing after Elan, not when his attempts to manipulate his sons have resulted in such calamitous losses, and when his team now has to scramble to figure out how to keep the hustle going without Malack. (Plus, you know, dealing with whatever Elan's plan is.)

(Plus, all the Doylist reasons that every description of what that conflict might be like just sounds like a rehash of the end of Blood Runs in the Family.)

My response to the first post is basically the second one, specifically the part in parentheses. The point that was supposed to be made with Tarquin has been made, and you haven't actually provided a reason that Mr. Burlew, as a writer, would feel the need to do it all over again.

[Fyraltari]

Why? Tarquin was very clear that "bad guys fighting bad guys never ends well", even assuming anything permeant has happened to Laurin and Miron, something I don't because we see them getting out of the way.

And even removing Tarquin, I see no reason that any of the others would be the types to get heavily involved either. You say "transdimensional deicidal entity" as if they have any way of knowing that's even what it is. "investigating the rift" is not synonymous with getting involved with the main plot. They could easily do that with the Rift in the desert without ever leaving the Western Continent.

Oh Miron is fine but have you missed that Laurin’s eyes turned purple just before the Snarl reaches out? Whatever that was, her mind was attacked.
And yes, they know what that is. Shojo told Nale who told Tarquin and Malack.
Tarquin doesn’t think that two vilains vying over McGuffins is interesting and at the time that is what both he and us thought the Gate were, inert objects that wouldn’t affect the plot by themselves. That last scene showed us and the VL otherwise. Why would Tarquin hide from his colleagues that the solution to the monstruosity that popped up inside their territory is located where is son is headed for ?
Besides Tarquin doesn’t want to die. At least not in a way as unremarkable as a casualty to some cosmological freak accident. And even if despite both of those Tarquin wanted to sulk in their empire. The IFCC could just send Sabine or Qarr tell the rest all this stuff since they seemingly want as much conflict as possible.

[Sir_Norbert]

My response to the first post is basically the second one, specifically the part in parentheses. The point that was supposed to be made with Tarquin has been made, and you haven't actually provided a reason that Mr. Burlew, as a writer, would feel the need to do it all over again.

OotS is primarily a story, not a collection of morals. If the story Rich has planned for the seventh book would benefit from Tarquin reappearing, he might well reappear -- just like Hilgya in the sixth book. Hard to predict when we don't know what that planned storyline is.

[Goblin_Priest]

Tarquin already disappeared, guys.

[understatement]

Pretty sure Miron and Laurin are goners. If not, it would underwhelm the sheer power of the Snarl -- just casually one-shotting two pretty powerful casters.

[Rrmcklin]

Oh Miron is fine but have you missed that Laurin’s eyes turned purple just before the Snarl reaches out? Whatever that was, her mind was attacked.
And yes, they know what that is. Shojo told Nale who told Tarquin and Malack.
Tarquin doesn’t think that two vilains vying over McGuffins is interesting and at the time that is what both he and us thought the Gate were, inert objects that wouldn’t affect the plot by themselves. That last scene showed us and the VL otherwise. Why would Tarquin hide from his colleagues that the solution to the monstruosity that popped up inside their territory is located where is son is headed for ?
Besides Tarquin doesn’t want to die. At least not in a way as unremarkable as a casualty to some cosmological freak accident. And even if despite both of those Tarquin wanted to sulk in their empire. The IFCC could just send Sabine or Qarr tell the rest all this stuff since they seemingly want as much conflict as possible.

You've reminded me of somethings I forgot/overlooked. Thank you for that. What happened with Laurin struck me as the same awe that Blackwing had, and he's fine.

I still think you're missing the point; Tarquin assumes the heroes will win, because that's what the heroes do. If his colleagues want to study the rift, they can with the one they have. Even if they were to go to the last gate, I'm actually curious why that would put them in opposition to the Order - unless you're thinking a team-up which, while could be interesting, also feels like the opportunity to set that up has past.


OotS is primarily a story, not a collection of morals. If the story Rich has planned for the seventh book would benefit from Tarquin reappearing, he might well reappear -- just like Hilgya in the sixth book. Hard to predict when we don't know what that planned storyline is.

This is largely true, but also in context largely meaningless. We're talking about what we think is likely to happen, based on the information we have. Going "if Rich wants to, he can" is a truism that isn't actually contributing anything to the discussion.

The point others are making that I (and some others) are disagreeing with amounts to "Tarquin and his crew have reasons/unfinished business to reappear again", my counterpoint (and others) is "them showing up and being important again largely defeats their very clear purpose"

(I'd also say you're vastly downplaying how important the "collection of moral" actually is to the story, and the writer.)

[Ruck]

OotS is primarily a story, not a collection of morals. If the story Rich has planned for the seventh book would benefit from Tarquin reappearing, he might well reappear -- just like Hilgya in the sixth book. Hard to predict when we don't know what that planned storyline is.

Whether it's a collection of morals has no bearing on whether it would benefit the story to repeat the exact same points of character growth and personal stakes for Elan.

[Harbinger]

My response to the first post is basically the second one, specifically the part in parentheses. The point that was supposed to be made with Tarquin has been made, and you haven't actually provided a reason that Mr. Burlew, as a writer, would feel the need to do it all over again.

To be perfectly honestly, I just like Tarquin and hope he reappears. I want to see him interact with/get killed by Xykon, and I think that would be an entertaining thing to see in the comic. If he doesn't reappear, I'll be disappointed, but I'll get over it.

[Peelee]

Oh Miron is fine but have you missed that Laurin’s eyes turned purple just before the Snarl reaches out? Whatever that was, her mind was attacked.


I doubt that, actually. I think that was basically what she was seeing reflected in her eyes. We saw the same effect in Blackwing and Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), with no indication that either of them had their minds attacked.

[goodpeople25]

I doubt that, actually. I think that was basically what she was seeing reflected in her eyes. We saw the same effect in Blackwing and Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), with no indication that either of them had their minds attacked.
With Xykon? Are you sure that's not just the lighting washing out his red eyes?

And Blackwing WAS mesmerized by what was in the rift, just not in the way typically associated with tears in reality or mental attacks.

[Ruck]

To be perfectly honestly, I just like Tarquin and hope he reappears. I want to see him interact with/get killed by Xykon, and I think that would be an entertaining thing to see in the comic. If he doesn't reappear, I'll be disappointed, but I'll get over it.

Yeah, and that's understandable. Personally, I think one really important factor in good dramatic storytelling is that the writer has the discipline to avoid "wouldn't it be cool if..." situations, or writing toward things they want to do, and sticks to storytelling that's more organic from what the characters have done and that doesn't essentially repeat itself.

One good way to quantify the difference between these two shows is in their endings. Breaking Bad falters in this regard because Vince Gilligan liked Walt too much and wanted to give him one last moment of redemption, a brief reversal of the highway to hell Walt has been hitting the gas on since the first episode. The Shield has no such moment of redemption; Vic lives where Walt dies, but he has to burn down every relationship and every shred of his reputation to stay alive and free. Even when he gets the big win of bringing down a cartel boss in the finale, nobody congratulates him or throws him a bone by cutting him a break on the job, letting him contact his family, etc. He can do nothing to get back in their good graces, and it's nobody's fault but his own.

[Peelee]

And Blackwing WAS mesmerized by what was in the rift, just not in the way typically associated with tears in reality or mental attacks.

Mesmerized in the same way he is with a shiny bauble, perhaps. I definitely wouldn't call that a mind attack, same with Lauren.

[littlebum2002]

The most fitting end for Tarquin will be completely offscreen. Heck, have him show up in The Epiprolouge...As "Nameless General Who Died At The Hands of The Hero Ian", with only his hand appearing on-screen as Ian stabs him in the chest.

Honestly, I think this is what Elan told Ian. It's not like Elan is a tactical genius, so it wouldn't make sense for him to tell Ian the best method to achieve in beating his father. So instead he must have told Ian the thematically best way of beating his father. A huge onscreen battle would work, but it would also mean dramatic deaths for some good guys. But an off-panel, totally un-noteworthy victory would be the safest bet. It would mean no named good guys die (because named good guys can die, but they'll NEVER die off-screen) and Tarquin won't go down in history like he wants to. He'll be just another nameless dictator of his continent.

[Fyraltari]

I doubt that, actually. I think that was basically what she was seeing reflected in her eyes. We saw the same effect in Blackwing and Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), with no indication that either of them had their minds attacked.

No it is not. For one Laurin is still casting, meaning her eyes should be glowing yellow, not reflecting anything else, for twice Miro is looking into the Rift as well and isn't affected, for thrice Laurin mmetnions she's using teleppthy and one can only imagine what happenes when mind-touching a being of divine anger and for fourth you can actually make out the tentacle inside Laurin's eyes. Blackwing's reaction was expected of someone looking at a planet from space. Laurin was looking at an ocean.

[goodpeople25]

Mesmerized in the same way he is with a shiny bauble, perhaps. I definitely wouldn't call that a mind attack, same with Lauren.
Yeah that's what I was going for. Just pointing some details out.

[hroþila]

I'm on Team Laurin Is Fine and The Snarl Didn't Actually Do Anything to Her.

Honestly, I think this is what Elan told Ian. It's not like Elan is a tactical genius, so it wouldn't make sense for him to tell Ian the best method to achieve in beating his father. So instead he must have told Ian the thematically best way of beating his father. A huge onscreen battle would work, but it would also mean dramatic deaths for some good guys. But an off-panel, totally un-noteworthy victory would be the safest bet. It would mean no named good guys die (because named good guys can die, but they'll NEVER die off-screen) and Tarquin won't go down in history like he wants to. He'll be just another nameless dictator of his continent.
The flip side to that is that for Ian to recognize the plan as a "pretty good" one which "might work", it can't have been just dramatic tips. It has to be something more specific than that, no doubt based upon what Elan thinks will work dramatically, but "translated" into concrete actions that Ian & co. can take.

[Rrmcklin]

Yeah, and that's understandable. Personally, I think one really important factor in good dramatic storytelling is that the writer has the discipline to avoid "wouldn't it be cool if..." situations, or writing toward things they want to do, and sticks to storytelling that's more organic from what the characters have done and that doesn't essentially repeat itself.

One good way to quantify the difference between these two shows is in their endings. Breaking Bad falters in this regard because Vince Gilligan liked Walt too much and wanted to give him one last moment of redemption, a brief reversal of the highway to hell Walt has been hitting the gas on since the first episode. The Shield has no such moment of redemption; Vic lives where Walt dies, but he has to burn down every relationship and every shred of his reputation to stay alive and free. Even when he gets the big win of bringing down a cartel boss in the finale, nobody congratulates him or throws him a bone by cutting him a break on the job, letting him contact his family, etc. He can do nothing to get back in their good graces, and it's nobody's fault but his own.

Yeah, I can think of things in other pieces of media that I enjoy that have moments or fights that I really like, in isolation, but when analyzing the story overall, feel like they made the overall arc/plots they were in weaker.

[Peelee]

No it is not. For one Laurin is still casting, meaning her eyes should be glowing yellow, not reflecting anything else, for twice Miro is looking into the Rift as well and isn't affected, for thrice Laurin mmetnions she's using teleppthy and one can only imagine what happenes when mind-touching a being of divine anger and for fourth you can actually make out the tentacle inside Laurin's eyes. Blackwing's reaction was expected of someone looking at a planet from space. Laurin was looking at an ocean.

Snarly colors override glowing eyes (see the aforementioned Xykon example; Lich eyes explicitly glow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)). Also, Laurin started looking at an ocean, but at the end was staring at a creature literally more real than she had ever seen before, which could very well elicit a similar shocked reaction. Miron is looking away.

Based off 945 alone, I'm not buying it. I'll need more evidence to be sold on that.

[woweedd]

I'm on Team Laurin Is Fine and The Snarl Didn't Actually Do Anything to Her.

The flip side to that is that for Ian to recognize the plan as a "pretty good" one which "might work", it can't have been just dramatic tips. It has to be something more specific than that, no doubt based upon what Elan thinks will work dramatically, but "translated" into concrete actions that Ian & co. can take.
Well, I mean, The Snarl MAY have done something to her, but that something was probably a lot more...direct.

[ijuinkun]

From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me.

You keep using that word. I do not believe that it means what you think it means.

[Fyraltari]

Snarly colors override glowing eyes (see the aforementioned Xykon example; Lich eyes explicitly glow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)). Also, Laurin started looking at an ocean, but at the end was staring at a creature literally more real than she had ever seen before, which could very well elicit a similar shocked reaction. Miron is looking away.

Based off 945 alone, I'm not buying it. I'll need more evidence to be sold on that.

Xykon’s eyes stay the same red, what am I missing ?

[Knaight]

Mesmerized in the same way he is with a shiny bauble, perhaps. I definitely wouldn't call that a mind attack, same with Lauren.

Planets are the shiniest baubles. Just ask Sieh.

[Ruck]

Xykon’s eyes stay the same red, what am I missing ?

I too do not see it.

[Goblin_Priest]

I doubt that, actually. I think that was basically what she was seeing reflected in her eyes. We saw the same effect in Blackwing and Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html), with no indication that either of them had their minds attacked.


With Xykon? Are you sure that's not just the lighting washing out his red eyes?

And Blackwing WAS mesmerized by what was in the rift, just not in the way typically associated with tears in reality or mental attacks.


I too do not see it.

I opened it up in Paint and compared it all.

Xykon's eyes change colors slightly. But so does the rest of Xykon. His whole palette is affected, from eyes to crown to cape. His eye color change is, overall, rather small. It does not match Blackwing's eyes as he is mesmerized. Which was also the psion's eyes when she was mesmerized.

Xykon having seen something, though, and never hinting at it... now that would be quite a plot twist.

[understatement]

But why would X even try to observe the rift? His unlife was literally at stake here.

If he saw what was in the rift, he would've told Tsukiko that information so she can root out even more inconsistencies in the Snarl ritual.

[Squire Doodad]

Laurin should be fine btw, Blackwing had the same eyes but it didn't do anything evident to him. At least, nothing that seems plausible.
It seems to be a "the Snarl sees you" as opposed to a "the Snarl is slicing your brain into congealing pudding".

[Larre Gannd]

Laurin should be fine btw, Blackwing had the same eyes but it didn't do anything evident to him. At least, nothing that seems plausible.
It seems to be a "the Snarl sees you" as opposed to a "the Snarl is slicing your brain into congealing pudding".

I assume it is actually a “you see the snarl”

[Takver]

I assume it is actually a “you see the snarl”

Could be both. That's Nietzsche's aphorism. "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

To the thread topic, I agree with everyone who says Tarquin won't show up for the final battle, not even to be ingloriously stomped on by Xykon. I agree that the thematic point this would make about Tarquin's role in the narrative has already been made.

I think our best chance to see him before Xykon's defeat would be through either Ian Starshine (contacting Haley) or Sabine (when Vaarsuvius is next soul-napped.) But I don't think he's going to show up again in the main plot. Not until perhaps the very very end, as part of the denouement.

Rich has been holding off on using Xykon and Redcloak since the end of book four. Books five and especially six have been very light on Team Evil. I think that's pretty clearly so they'll have more impact when he brings them back for the final book. Rather than Tarquin, get ready to see our main villains back in a big way throughout book seven.

[Aveline]

Laurin should be fine btw, Blackwing had the same eyes but it didn't do anything evident to him. At least, nothing that seems plausible.
It seems to be a "the Snarl sees you" as opposed to a "the Snarl is slicing your brain into congealing pudding".

I think it could go either way. Laurin was actively using psionics to detect life, and if she later turned up insane from mental contact with the Snarl, I wouldn't say "That doesn't make any sense."

[Peelee]

I think it could go either way. Laurin was actively using psionics to detect life, and if she later turned up insane from mental contact with the Snarl, I wouldn't say "That doesn't make any sense."

Indeed. As of right now, there's just too little to go on, so I'm going to assume status quo.

[Goblin_Priest]

But why would X even try to observe the rift? His unlife was literally at stake here.

If he saw what was in the rift, he would've told Tsukiko that information so she can root out even more inconsistencies in the Snarl ritual.

Well, there's the fact that it's literally right behind the very thing he's flying for. Looking at his phylactery pretty much equates to looking at the rift, given their angles and positions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Rich has been holding off on using Xykon and Redcloak since the end of book four. Books five and especially six have been very light on Team Evil. I think that's pretty clearly so they'll have more impact when he brings them back for the final book. Rather than Tarquin, get ready to see our main villains back in a big way throughout book seven. Yes, they look to me to represent the critical/core conflict, just as they did in Book 1.

I think it could go either way. Laurin was actively using psionics to detect life, and if she later turned up insane from mental contact with the Snarl, I wouldn't say "That doesn't make any sense." That strikes me as consistent.

[Harbinger]

You keep using that word. I do not believe that it means what you think it means.

...what word? Character? Plotline? Tarquin?

[Peelee]

...what word? Character? Plotline? Tarquin?

Villain. Accept. What.

[Fyraltari]

From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me.
You keep using that word. I do not believe that it means what you think it means....what word? Character? Plotline? Tarquin?

:smallsigh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhXjcZdk5QQ

[zimmerwald1915]

From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me.
Despite the fact that we've gone an entire book without Tarquin?

[littlebum2002]

From what we know of Tarquin's character, the idea that he would just accept his status as a secondary villain and keep running his kingdom knowing that his son and "arch-nemesis" is out there pursuing another plotline is inconceivable to me.


Despite the fact that we've gone an entire book without Tarquin?

And despite the fact that that is exactly what Tarquin told Elan to do

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

"You need to do some serious brooding about how you're doomed to fight your own father....So, you go finish up your little plot and come back in, say, ten years?"

[understatement]

Tarquin returning in any form of significance would undermine what Elan told him:

at the end, he's essentially a filler villain.

("filler" being loosely used)

[CriticalFailure]

He's really just there to provide character development for Elan and now that's done.