Would TWF Paladin be broken?

[Xayah]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?

[NaughtyTiger]

nothing involving TWF is ever considered broken.

I have allowed in at my table, it was still underwhelming.

[Rerem115]

The opportunity costs of TWF are just too high.

At maximum optimization, you're getting a +5 to damage from TWFS and +1 AC and +1 damage from Dual Wielder. While that sounds good (and it is!), you're giving up classic combinations like PAM+GWM, or PAM+Shieldmaster+Duelist/Defense for the defensively inclined. You gain, on average, maybe 2-3 points of damage by going for TWF over S(pear)&B, and sacrifice at least 1 AC, defensive utility, and become a bit harder to shop for, since you need twice as many weapons.

[Xayah]

Okay yeah, I figured as much, thanks guys! I'm not aiming for this to be some super optimized build, but I still wanted to see if I could mechanically support the idea of a DEX based Paladin with two Scimitars or if I'd be stuck going with Defense! Hope my DM agrees with you all!

[Specter]

The best setup for this is to get a spell that increases your weapons' damage, like Divin Favor or Hunter's Mark, to take advantage of that extra attack. But still, it's not better offensively than GWM, and not better defensively than Shield Master.

Also, you can use multiple smites in one turn.

[Vulsutyr]

For a theoretical character going for smite novas this might be good, but for a normal character it’s not worth it since they live over and entire adventuring day.

[nickl_2000]

For a theoretical character going for smite novas this might be good, but for a normal character it’s not worth it since they live over and entire adventuring day.

But for a smite sorcadin or hexbladadin character, the extra damage from TWF really doesn't matter all that much. Your extra damage comes from spell smites

[Skyblaze]

I've had a stray thought of playing a twf conquest paladin before. Invincible conquerer + 5th lvl bestow curse + hold person + improved divine smites + blowing spell slots on true divine smites. Of course, all that combo works well with any weapon haha.

[stoutstien]

RAW the only way i have been able to get TWF to catch up is stacking at least 3 on hit effects and the static mod from the twf style is only worth it at low lvs and quickly becomes a non-factor. and this still falls behind one hand pam in all regards so no, twf pally wont be broken.

[Xayah]

Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm playing one with that house rule right now. I'm a small race, so GWM was out of the question. After running numbers, I found that I deal substantially more damage than sword n' board with the Dueling Fighting Style pre-5 (with Dex 19, I averaged 15 over 10.5), and getting two attacks really helped make sure I landed important smites/keep damage consistent, which is really the best feature of TWF here. Divine favor also proved a lot more powerful as an opener.

This falls off pretty hard post-5, pre-11. Dueling (with Dex 20 here) was pulling in 23 average against my 25.5, and at that point just getting to use a shield would be way better. Divine favor is still neat, but you start running into circumstances where just busting big smites on alpha strikes becomes preferable. You won't really suffer, but by the numbers, two-weapons are definitively inferior at these levels.

Post-11, things get a little better. You're now at 39 versus dueling's 32, which is a respectable gap. If you ever break the Dex cap (I have!) it gets stronger for you by exactly one point of average damage. Things get a little crappier for you, though when it comes to attunement and magic items unless your DM is fairly nice about it. You need two good weapons versus one to keep your damage high and consistent, and that leaves you with few options for the rest of your kit. I've got two weapons and my armor and I'm completely full up.

I wouldn't take the Dual Wielder feat, it's just not worth it. It's +1 AC, 3 extra damage at best, and solves a 'problem' with weapon drawing you probably didn't really have to begin with.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.

[stoutstien]

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.
other than the chance the DM a stickler for only drawing/stowing one weapon as a free item interaction.

[Man_Over_Game]

other than the chance the DM a stickler for only drawing/stowing one weapon as a free item interaction.

Drawing one weapon at a time isn't as big of a deal when the second weapon requires Bonus Actions and you're the only class with Spell Smites. Additionally, most spells require a free hand to cast. The Paladin will likely have something to do to compensate for his missing 1d6 damage for one turn.

[Xayah]

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.
Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?

[stoutstien]

Drawing one weapon at a time isn't as big of a deal when the second weapon requires Bonus Actions and you're the only class with Spell Smites. Additionally, most spells require a free hand to cast. The Paladin will likely have something to do to compensate for his missing 1d6 damage.

so TWF works best if you never actually use two weapons. :smallbiggrin:

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?

Relying on Bless or Divine Favor is going to be your best bet. Maybe invest into War Caster to maintain Concentration while on the front lines a bit better. It won't be the "Best of the Best" solution, but it does mean you'll be able to burst down targets quickly if needed with Divine Smite.

You're missing out on like 2 damage a turn. Who cares? As long as you have fun. Someone could just spam GWM and gamble everything on 1-2 hits and be disappointed half of the time, or you can see the benefit of getting Divine Favor blast enemies apart multiple times each turn. What sounds more fun?


so TWF works best if you never actually use two weapons. :smallbiggrin:

Kinda like the Resilience Feats. Best case scenario is that it's never relevant (assuming the TWF is using ranged weapons, many don't and then complain on the forums).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?
It's absolutely viable, just not as strong as other options. Any buff that effects all of your attacks suddenly becomes slightly more powerful, provided you lead with it (and often you will due to drawing issues), so you can utilize that as a slight advantage.

It's also got some decent synergy with Mobile if you have spare room for that feat. I got it as a 1st level freebie and it's been a godsend.

[Xayah]

Relying on Bless or Divine Favor is going to be your best bet. Maybe invest into War Caster to maintain Concentration while on the front lines a bit better. It won't be the "Best of the Best" solution, but it does mean you'll be able to burst down targets quickly if needed with Divine Smite.

You're missing out on like 2 damage a turn. Who cares? As long as you have fun. Someone could just spam GWM and gamble everything on 1-2 hits and be disappointed half of the time, or you can see the benefit of getting Divine Favor blast enemies apart multiple times each turn. What sounds more fun?



Kinda like the Resilience Feats. Best case scenario is that it's never relevant.
Awesome, thank you very much! I looked at Divine Favor as well, that was looking kinda nice. I'll go beg my DM to let Sacred Weapon work on both Scimitars, and if he says no by following RAW, oh well, I'll just go have fun with my character instead.

[stoutstien]

how i would build a H-elf twf pally:
focus on dex>cha>con>

free cantrip would be pure utility. mage hand or minor illusion is always nice

take defense style. 1 ac will treat you better than ~5 damage once a round.

low lvs con on divine favor then crusader mantle if you have a few party members that can benefit. monks, fighters, and summons can boost this slot damage way up.

if you want to be tankish two weapon fighting feat can net 1 more AC and ~1 damage a turn or mobile if you want to have a striker feel.

[NaughtyTiger]

silly question,but is your DM open to stuff from Eberron UA?

the double scimitar and associated half-feat was the talk of the town when it came out, but all has gone quiet recently.

[Yunru]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?

Umm... you already can?
All the fighting style does is add your stat modifier.

[Xayah]

silly question,but is your DM open to stuff from Eberron UA?

the double scimitar and associated half-feat was the talk of the town when it came out, but all has gone quiet recently.
Eberron isn't UA anymore, but I did look at the Double Scimitar for a bit. Unfortunately, the feat requires Elf now (so no Half-Elfs), and without it, the weapon isn't Finesse, which means I can't use it with a DEX Pally. I appreciate the advice though!


Umm... you already can?
All the fighting style does is add your stat modifier.
Yeah, but I was looking to see if I could add TWF to make it a bit stronger, as two weapon fighting without the fighting style is pretty bad

[NaughtyTiger]

Eberron isn't UA anymore, but I did look at the Double Scimitar for a bit. Unfortunately, the feat requires Elf now (so no Half-Elfs), and without it, the weapon isn't Finesse, which means I can't use it with a DEX Pally. I appreciate the advice though!

ah, i missed that it was full elf. (bladesinger and elf racial feats are open to half-elf, so i don't feel too bad about being wrong)

[dgnslyr]

But for a smite sorcadin or hexbladadin character, the extra damage from TWF really doesn't matter all that much. Your extra damage comes from spell smites

On the other hand, more attack rolls means more chances to hit and crit. Finding those crit-smite moneyshots makes a huge difference, so having more dice to roll can help in that regard, since with this kind of build the weapon damage itself is kind of irrelevant.

That said, I think Polearm Master is a better way of accomplishing the same goal, since you can retain use of your shield among other things, but that also costs a feat, so TWF isn't completely useless.

[Misterwhisper]

Since the introduction of the double blades scimitar and the revenant blade feat, yes TWF is completely useless.

[djreynolds]

Well you only need a 13 in strength and 13 charisma to multiclass and wear chainmail also.

Just grab some fighter levels. In fact you don't have to be dex based to TWF or dual wield scimitars.

Go strength based, grab fighter, but 13/15/12/8/10/14.. is very doable

[Citan]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?
It's note overpowered.

It's just very good, as long as you know how to play its strength. If you play it as you would a sword&board, then it will be just good enough, or below.

True strength of dual-wielding is versatility, aka much, MUCH better positioning depending on the situation.

Reasons they didn't put it on Paladin list is probably not a balance reason (sure, you can nova smite, but it still costs resources! You're simply blowing your steam faster, it won't make any decisive difference until mid/high levels).
Rather a "not fitting traditional trope" reason, or "no real necessity" reason: Paladins tend to try and aggro enemies since they are amongst the most resilient people in the first place. So ability to fight as good from 5 feet as from 30 feet is less important.
Also, as a DEX build, you can without too much difficulty switch to "real long range" so this is another reason less for going TWF.
As for spells, unless you want to use exclusive spells, most of Paladin spells are Verbal only, and you can engrave a focus on a shield when going sword and board, so there is no real incentive to go DEX either.

In short, you certainly won't be underpowered by going TWF as Dex build, but you won't really take advantage of its benefit either unless you just dislike crossbows and bows for some reason.



Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.
Well, in that case, I would actually even advise against TWF.
You simply have too much weighing on "single weapon": Sacred Weapon affects only one weapon, and Booming Blade is "casting a spell" so cannot trigger bonus action weapon attack.

Unless your DM houserules otherwise (which would be a significant powerboost but still within reason imo), you'd risk taking a Fighting Style that you'd really benefit only rarely.

In that way, you'd better pick another more generalist style (like Defense) and simply go dual-wielding when you feel it's useful right at that moment. Loss of +3 / +4 is not a big deal when it's an occasional thing. :=)

[Mitsu]

Wanna see broken? Make Vengeance Paladin Half-Elf with PAM and use Spear/Staff + Shield and dip 1 level Hexblade for SAD CHA. ASI: Level 4 - Elven Accuracy, Level 9- PAM, level 13- War Caster.

Vuman will work too, with PAM at 1st level, +2 CHA at 4th, War Caster at 9th and +2 CHA at 13.

Enjoy +2 AC from shield, triple advantage, bonus attack for free, IDS, Shield spell, Curse and if you dip 2 levels- a great range attack.

Even better, convience your DM to use Spell Point variant intead of slots and you have definition of being broken.

Ow, and if you want to bully your DM or make him commit sepuku- summon Pegasus on level 13, buy him plating barring and use Haste on Him and yourself. As Vuman don't forget to grab Mounted Combatant too.

TWF Paladin is hardly even a semi-competetive vs PAM Shield n Spear or PAM GWM build for Paladin....

I would even say- yes, play TWF because you will be more balanced and you just nerfed yourself :)

[JoeJ]

Since the introduction of the double blades scimitar and the revenant blade feat, yes TWF is completely useless.

Don't those only exist in Eberron?

[Xayah]

It's note overpowered.

It's just very good, as long as you know how to play its strength. If you play it as you would a sword&board, then it will be just good enough, or below.

True strength of dual-wielding is versatility, aka much, MUCH better positioning depending on the situation.

Reasons they didn't put it on Paladin list is probably not a balance reason (sure, you can nova smite, but it still costs resources! You're simply blowing your steam faster, it won't make any decisive difference until mid/high levels).
Rather a "not fitting traditional trope" reason, or "no real necessity" reason: Paladins tend to try and aggro enemies since they are amongst the most resilient people in the first place. So ability to fight as good from 5 feet as from 30 feet is less important.
Also, as a DEX build, you can without too much difficulty switch to "real long range" so this is another reason less for going TWF.
As for spells, unless you want to use exclusive spells, most of Paladin spells are Verbal only, and you can engrave a focus on a shield when going sword and board, so there is no real incentive to go DEX either.

In short, you certainly won't be underpowered by going TWF as Dex build, but you won't really take advantage of its benefit either unless you just dislike crossbows and bows for some reason.



Well, in that case, I would actually even advise against TWF.
You simply have too much weighing on "single weapon": Sacred Weapon affects only one weapon, and Booming Blade is "casting a spell" so cannot trigger bonus action weapon attack.

Unless your DM houserules otherwise (which would be a significant powerboost but still within reason imo), you'd risk taking a Fighting Style that you'd really benefit only rarely.

In that way, you'd better pick another more generalist style (like Defense) and simply go dual-wielding when you feel it's useful right at that moment. Loss of +3 / +4 is not a big deal when it's an occasional thing. :=)
Thank you for this great response! As someone who’s never played a Paladin before, this was definitely very insightful.
I definitely do understand a TWF build will never be the strongest mechanically, especially after reading this thread, but I really do like the flavor of it on my character. Bows might be in her arsenal, but definitely won’t be the focus.

Regardless though, you’re definitely right in that I shouldn’t go for Booming Blade; in fact, I’ve re-evaluated the spells and am probably going with Prestidigation instead, not for combat purposes (obviously) but for flavor and OOC stuff.

All in all, I really do appreciate this response and will definitely keep it in mind! Most important thing I gotta do for myself is actually think about what the best playstyle is for a ‘pure’ TWF-focused build, seeing as how I am certain I want to play that.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?


Thank you for this great response! As someone who’s never played a Paladin before, this was definitely very insightful.
I definitely do understand a TWF build will never be the strongest mechanically, especially after reading this thread, but I really do like the flavor of it on my character. Bows might be in her arsenal, but definitely won’t be the focus.

Regardless though, you’re definitely right in that I shouldn’t go for Booming Blade; in fact, I’ve re-evaluated the spells and am probably going with Prestidigation instead, not for combat purposes (obviously) but for flavor and OOC stuff.

All in all, I really do appreciate this response and will definitely keep it in mind! Most important thing I gotta do for myself is actually think about what the best playstyle is for a ‘pure’ TWF-focused build, seeing as how I am certain I want to play that.

Might I recommend Vengeance Paladin as an option? You get Advantage to attack as one of your possible divinities, which increases your chance to crit from 5% per hit to 9.75%. Considering you attack 50%-100% more than other Paladins, you'll have a lot more options to crit than most Paladins. When you DO crit, you can activate your Divine Smite for some solid burst damage.

I feel like the Vengeance Paladin also fits well with the concept of a zealous warrior of light wielding two swords. Because two blades is a statement: I have to kill you twice as fast. That doesn't quite mesh with the Devotion Paladin, who seeks out the light in everyone. The Devotion Paladin is full of auras and buffs, and works with a team, which is more of what I'd expect from someone who chooses to wield a shield. Yet, the concept of wielding two weapons seems important to you, which tells me that shielding others isn't really your goal.

[MeeposFire]

There are a number of class attributes that have less to do with balance and more to do with theming that the designers want to impose on particular classes. Two weapon fighting style not being on paladins is one of them while two handed not being on the ranger is another (and yes the fighter getting access to all of them is also about a theme). Sneak attack being limited to the weapons it is limited to is far more about theme than balance (only one attack per round and adding major bonus damage really diminishes the value of not just two handed weapons but also the -5/+10 since while on a fighter something like sharpshooter is a given to be better in most situations that do not involve high AC it takes a much lower AC to make it worth while when missing means losing access to an additional +10d6).

In this case I would not say TWF is overpowered on a paladin. It has its uses especially since you can get a bonus action attack without spending a feat or a potent magic item but that gives it a niche rather than making it too powerful. Remember also that if smites were the issue that not giving the fighting style does nothing to prevent that already. All you get from the fighting style is your attribute mod in damage (which in most games means up to +5 damage which is nice but not that great as a paladin using a spear and PAM could be getting +6 per round or more with opportunity attacks with single weapon style).

[Xayah]

Might I recommend Vengeance Paladin as an option? You get Advantage to attack as one of your possible divinities, which increases your chance to crit from 5% per hit to 9.75%. Considering you attack 50%-100% more than other Paladins, you'll have a lot more options to crit than most Paladins. When you DO crit, you can activate your Divine Smite for some solid burst damage.

I feel like the Vengeance Paladin also fits well with the concept of a zealous warrior of light wielding two swords. Two blades is a statement: I have to kill you twice as fast. That doesn't quite seem in-line with the Devotion Paladin, who seeks out the light in everyone.
Well yeah, I agree, Vengeance Paladin is indeed a great fit too, but thematically it doesn’t quite fit. My character is a young Half-Elf that stepped away from her clan of paladins right before she was going to swear her Oath of Ancients as corrupt leadership led her to believe it wasn’t the best for her and her people. One moving speech, she’s now all about protecting the people of the land before fighting the darkness. The scimitars come from them symbolizing a crescent moon (will likely give her more bent blades than usual), whereas her old clan worshipped the sun. It’s important symbolism to her that I don’t want to get rid of, and I also feel like ‘the warrior looking for a safe place for her people and wishing to protect them and everyone else’ is more Devotion than Vengeance.

That and I also kinda just like Devotion more as a subclass, flavorwise, in general.

I definitely appreciate the comments though, they’re making me think at the very least!

[Citan]

Thank you for this great response! As someone who’s never played a Paladin before, this was definitely very insightful.
I definitely do understand a TWF build will never be the strongest mechanically, especially after reading this thread, but I really do like the flavor of it on my character. Bows might be in her arsenal, but definitely won’t be the focus.

Regardless though, you’re definitely right in that I shouldn’t go for Booming Blade; in fact, I’ve re-evaluated the spells and am probably going with Prestidigation instead, not for combat purposes (obviously) but for flavor and OOC stuff.

All in all, I really do appreciate this response and will definitely keep it in mind! Most important thing I gotta do for myself is actually think about what the best playstyle is for a ‘pure’ TWF-focused build, seeing as how I am certain I want to play that.
Hmmm...

I'm not sure how you interpreted my post as an "anti-recommendation" for Booming Blade? XD

Must have used some ambiguous formulation.
When I meant that Booming Blade was incompatible with TWF, it was just to stress that you probably wouldn't have that often use of the latter, since as a Devotion Paladin, you'll Sacred Weapon only *one* weapon...
Which synergizes more with Booming Blade as a single attack than Extra Attack with two different weapons.

If however you're aware of that anti-synergy and still takes TWF, nothing prevents you from taking Booming Blade still: it's a nice tool to apply extra damage for no cost, and/or try and influence one enemy's decision making. :)

[nickl_2000]

On the other hand, more attack rolls means more chances to hit and crit. Finding those crit-smite moneyshots makes a huge difference, so having more dice to roll can help in that regard, since with this kind of build the weapon damage itself is kind of irrelevant.

That said, I think Polearm Master is a better way of accomplishing the same goal, since you can retain use of your shield among other things, but that also costs a feat, so TWF isn't completely useless.

You misunderstand, I meant the TWF fighting style. Not two weapon fighting in general. The bonus in Dex to hit is nothing compared to your smites there

[djreynolds]

It's not broken at all.

Are you rolling stats?
What armor will you wear?
Is stealth a big deal?

[Arkhios]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Paladins can already be TWF; just use two weapons.

Lack of the fighting style access doesn't prevent a paladin (or anyone else for that matter) from two weapon fighting. Lack of actual fighting style means they don't get their melee ability modifier to their off-hand damage roll. Whether they get it via house rule or not is irrelevant for balance.

[NecessaryWeevil]

On the other hand, more attack rolls means more chances to hit and crit. Finding those crit-smite moneyshots makes a huge difference, so having more dice to roll can help in that regard, since with this kind of build the weapon damage itself is kind of irrelevant.


Since this is often the logic used for TWF on rogues (twice the chance to land a Sneak Attack) I wonder about adding a dash of Rogue to your build? [Disclaimer: have not run the expected-DPS numbers and wouldn't know where to start]

[CTurbo]

I've played a TWF Paladin and it's not at all broken, but it's not as bad as people think either. Especially once you reach level 11 and get to add an extra d8 to every hit. I was a Vengeance Pally with the Dual Wielder fighting style and used 2 Longswords. Hitting for 2d8+str three times a turn is pretty decent. Throw Hunters Mark on the bbeg and use your Vow of Emnity and he'll go down pretty quick without even smiting.

I've also used a dex based sword and board Pally with the Dueling Fighting style and was able to get my hands on a Scimitar of Speed which mimicked what you're wanting to do, but I was still able to use a shield and also benefit from the fighting style.

I agree that feat support is the biggest issue with TWF. I've always wished for another feat related to it or to make Dual Wielder a bit better. PAM is superior and also easier, AND can still benefit from GWM.

TWF Pally with two scimitars and 18 Dex at level 11-
3d6+3d8+12 = 36 dpr

PAM Pally with 18 Str at level 11-
2d10+3d8+1d4+12 = 39 dpr

The Dual Wielder feat will raise the TWF dpr to 39 to match the PAM but remember PAM grants a conditional reaction attack that still keeps it out front.

Anyway, the point is, the TWF Pally will keep up at least with PAM, but it's never going to be as good.

I'd certainly allow Pally's to take TWF if they wanted.

[Xayah]

Since this is often the logic used for TWF on rogues (twice the chance to land a Sneak Attack) I wonder about adding a dash of Rogue to your build? [Disclaimer: have not run the expected-DPS numbers and wouldn't know where to start]
Might be interesting, absolutely, but my group is opposed to multiclassing outside of specific story reasons (for example, you can become a Warlock if you meet a Fiend, become a Wizard if you spend time in training, a Barbarian if you awaken your inner rage, etc, but you need a campaign story reason to do so. Honestly, I think it's pretty cool).

[Arkhios]

Might be interesting, absolutely, but my group is opposed to multiclassing outside of specific story reasons (for example, you can become a Warlock if you meet a Fiend, become a Wizard if you spend time in training, a Barbarian if you awaken your inner rage, etc, but you need a campaign story reason to do so. Honestly, I think it's pretty cool).

I'm not exactly sure if my DM specifically demands this from all of us, because I'm the only one (that I know of) in our group who's even slightly interested in multiclassing as a potential character option, but I prefer that, when I multiclass, story-wise it makes sense depending on who the character actually is (more than letters and numbers on a paper). It hurts my own sense of immersion if all of a sudden, without a sensible reason, a character takes levels in some unorthodox class compared to their previous class and/or background and/or even their personality. This is why, I believe, it's not wrong to say 'no' to whatever suggestions people are eager to bring up. If a build or an idea of a build makes you feel uneasy, then it's not for you. It's just that simple.

I strongly encourage people to this way of thinking. It is a roleplaying game, after all. What it is to roleplay if not immersing yourself as someone else you're not?

[Xayah]

I'm not exactly sure if my DM specifically demands this from all of us, because I'm the only one (that I know of) in our group who's even slightly interested in multiclassing as a potential character option, but I prefer that, when I multiclass, story-wise it makes sense depending on who the character actually is (more than letters and numbers on a paper). It hurts my own sense of immersion if all of a sudden, without a sensible reason, a character takes levels in some unorthodox class compared to their previous class and/or background and/or even their personality. This is why, I believe, it's not wrong to say 'no' to whatever suggestions people are eager to bring up. If a build or an idea of a build makes you feel uneasy, then it's not for you. It's just that simple.

I strongly encourage people to this way of thinking. It is a roleplaying game, after all. What it is to roleplay if not immersing yourself as someone else you're not?
Yes, this, I absolutely agree! For example, right now, I have a Barbarian who wields a legendary sword and I've discussed with my DM that the sword would get stronger over time to make up for not getting new weapons. And of course, the possibility of the sword eventually awakening and turning me into a Hexblade Warlock, at least for a few levels, has been discussed too and it seems like a really cool if very suboptimal multiclass.

Stuff like that is more fun to me and the rest of my group than a Paladin multiclassing into Sorcerer because reasons. No offense to those who do enjoy it, of course I understand the draw of true optimization, but to me, it's just not quite the best case scenario. I'd rather optimize within the confines of a theme.

[Spiritchaser]

I’ve got a level 15 Dex TWF paladin (ancients) at my table.

He’s ok, it works. I don’t consider it to be at all broken.

Yes he has the advantage of a Dex build which a PAM build can’t reasonably have (notwithstanding MC dips) which does count for a fair bit... but the hands free issues, weaker grapple options etc. Are a counter balance. I wouldn’t be overly concerned.

[Arkhios]

Yes, this, I absolutely agree! For example, right now, I have a Barbarian who wields a legendary sword and I've discussed with my DM that the sword would get stronger over time to make up for not getting new weapons. And of course, the possibility of the sword eventually awakening and turning me into a Hexblade Warlock, at least for a few levels, has been discussed too and it seems like a really cool if very suboptimal multiclass.

Stuff like that is more fun to me and the rest of my group than a Paladin multiclassing into Sorcerer because reasons. No offense to those who do enjoy it, of course I understand the draw of true optimization, but to me, it's just not quite the best case scenario. I'd rather optimize within the confines of a theme.

Hear, hear. It's always great to see that there are more like-minded individuals out there and that I'm not alone with these thoughts!

Another example: my own character. A member of a civilized but nomadic clan (re-fluffed Uthgardt Tribe Member) residing in the frontier region in the northern hemisphere, in a place simply called The North. As a child he was told that his bloodline is descendant of a famous archmage, and everyone in his close family has been given basic training and knowledge in arcana (human bonus skill proficiency), regardless of what vocation they'd take afterwards. My character became a blacksmith, never thinking he'd become an adventurer. However, as is the norm in their society, everyone is taught how to fight, to survive. Due to his firm devotion to the Old Faith (a "druidic" religion), his "militia" position was to act as a warden of the local druidic circle, thus eventually he became Oath of the Ancients paladin (yes, a paladin with a barbarian feel; fun fact - I tried to emphasize this feel by taking the Dual Wielder as his human bonus feat, so technically this post isn't entirely off-topic).

Anyway, I've played him as "curious for all kinds of knowledge", despite the fact that he is "only" a barbaric paladin and a blacksmith. Until relatively recently (in-game time) the character has had little reason to multiclass. But now, there are a few reasons to consider a multiclass into some arcane spellcaster (could be bard, could be sorcerer, could be warlock - or even a wizard, if I decide to use an ASI to meet the prerequisite; in which case he would start walking in his distant ancestors footprints).

[indemnity]

My DM let me take two weapon fighting for my DEX Ancients Paladin with Sentinel feat.

My char mostly rushes into battle and tries to control as much area as possible (I play with 3 mid-ranged damage dealers who collapse in a small breeze). Compared to a STR or Dex sword/board Paladin it's a slightly less damage and a little less AC. But for me, less damage is balanced by more battlefield control such as chopping down minions.

I considered adding the Dual Wielder feat on top too but the extra damage vs an extra 2 DEX didn't make much of a practical difference. Rapier + whip was a failed idea to attack outside my optimal position for paladin auras.

For me, it's all the DEX based skills that make it a different type of fun compared to STR.

Might not be optimal, but it's not too far off and I find it more fun.

[Citan]

My DM let me take two weapon fighting for my DEX Ancients Paladin with Sentinel feat.

My char mostly rushes into battle and tries to control as much area as possible (I play with 3 mid-ranged damage dealers who collapse in a small breeze). Compared to a STR or Dex sword/board Paladin it's a slightly less damage and a little less AC. But for me, less damage is balanced by more battlefield control such as chopping down minions.

I considered adding the Dual Wielder feat on top too but the extra damage vs an extra 2 DEX didn't make much of a practical difference. Rapier + whip was a failed idea to attack outside my optimal position for paladin auras.

For me, it's all the DEX based skills that make it a different type of fun compared to STR.

Might not be optimal, but it's not too far off and I find it more fun.
Actually, your choice was very probably the optimal one.

You are saying that you want to be the lone frontliner that draws as much aggro as possible so enemies "forget" (lol) about your backline friends.
For that to be as easy to do as possible, you need as high an Initiative as possible to have the highest chance to get into optimum position comparatively to both allies and enemies.

For that, only two "permanent" options: high DEX and Alert.
And since Paladins are in kinda more need for ASI bumps than others...

You certainly made the optimal choice. :)