Houserules Collection: are these a 3 or an 18? Class overhaul - Bard

[lucky9]

I will be posting one change, or group of changes, at a time to hopefully allow for a little more discussion/ tweaks/ general thoughts, if you would be so kind:smallsmile:

A note before starting: I am aware that this edition is.. unstable, especially at higher levels. My rules don't necessarily aim to completely eliminate that issue, too large a task. What I'm going for is general playability, a certain feel I have about things, and of course, fun for all players including those running muggles. With that said, do let me know if I've horribly broken anything. Also, feel free to ask for any clarification.

So now for the classes to which I've made, what I think are much greater, changes. I'll post individulally for more specific advice if you please
First up, Bards!
In case you can't tell, I like a certain type of Bard:smallbiggrin: Will this work out in 3.5?

Bards do not cast spells spontaneously, as a Sorcerer, but must prepare spells as a Mage with a spellbook.

A Bard must study their spellbook each day to prepare spells.

They cannot prepare any spell not recorded in their spellbook including Read Magic.

Bards’ spells are Intelligence based, not Charisma.

They may learn and cast any spells available to Mages and Sorcerers, except Mage only spells, within their level restrictions.

In the case of spells appearing on both spell lists, go with the lower level; other than a few exceptions listed in the spells section.

Bards may no longer learn or cast any spells from their list that also appear on any other class spell lists besides Mage/ Sorcerer; other than a few exceptions listed in the spells section.
For example: Know Direction, because it appears on the Druid spell list but not the Mage/ Sorcerer list.

They may of course cast spells unique to the Bard list, ex: Lullaby.

A Bard begins play with 10 +Intelligence modifier 0-level Bard/ Mage/ Sorcerer (Arcane) spells in their spellbook.

At each new Bard level, they gain an additional spell of any level they can cast for their spellbook.

At any time, a Bard may also add spells from scrolls and other spellbooks to their own; just as a Mage.

Disregard the Bard Spells Known chart in the Player’s Handbook.

Bards do not qualify for any effect related to spontaneous casting such as feats, prestige classes, magic items, spells, etc.

They do however qualify for effects relating to prepared arcane casting, provided they meet all other prerequisites.

Bards may not specialize in a school of magic.

A gestalt Bard/ Mage only receives the spells per day progression of the Mage and may only learn two spells at level up, not three as may be expected.

Swim is no longer a class skill for Bards.

Links to other rule sections:

General Rules
No xp Loss
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584101-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18

Massive Damage Variants
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584140-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Item-2

Size/ Space Sharing
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584141-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Item-3
Races
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584144-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Races

Classes
Multi-Classing
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584145-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Classes

Classes w/ Minor Change
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584150-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Classes-w-minor-tweaks

Monk Overhaul
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584154-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Class-overhaul-Monk

Sorcerer Overhaul
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584155-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Class-overhaul-Sorcerer
Skills
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584156-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Skills

Feats
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584160-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Feats

Magic
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584164-Houserules-Collection-are-these-a-3-or-an-18-Magic

[rferries]

This isn't a particular comment on your homebrew, but more a general question for everyone: what exactly is the basis for the bard class? Was there a particular character in fantasy fiction that inspired them, because other than Orpheus I'm drawing a blank. Tolkien and Vance at least set the precedent for wizards, "magical singers" just seems so random haha.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Between changing the bard to an Int-based prepared caster and not letting the bard cast spells that aren't on the mage list, these changes basically make the bard into a Mage LiteTM, when the entire point of the bard class is that they blur the lines between martial, skilled, arcane, and divine classes. The 1e bard originally cast spells as a druid, after all, not a magic-user.

Which would be okay, since the bard's unique spells shore up its identity relative to the mage...except you then gave your sorcerer in your other thread the ability to cast unique bard spells. That basically leaves the bard with only Bardic Music to distinguish itself thematically, and quite frankly most bardic music effects are either niche, too weak for their level, or gained too late to be worthwhile; Inspire Courage is awesome, but one class feature does not a good class make.

So I'd say either ditch the prepared casting and make the bard a spontaneous caster with an expandable repertoire, to give him the versatility of the sorcerer and the broad knowledge of the mage; take bard spells away from the sorcerer, because there's no particular reason the sorcerer should be stealing the sorcerer's things as opposed to any other class's spells; or heavily improve the bard's music so it can be a defining feature, if you really want the spellcasting to be more of a secondary feature.


This isn't a particular comment on your homebrew, but more a general question for everyone: what exactly is the basis for the bard class? Was there a particular character in fantasy fiction that inspired them, because other than Orpheus I'm drawing a blank. Tolkien and Vance at least set the precedent for wizards, "magical singers" just seems so random haha.

Tolkien also set the precedent for bards, as all "spellcasting" that we see (as opposed to magic from items or the more subtle crafting-like elven magic) involves singing, chanting, or poetry to invoke its power, from the wizards' declarations to Tom Bombadil's magic to Eru Ilúvatar singing the world into existence.

But here's the actual inspiration for the Bard class, right from the horse's mouth:


. . . I believe it is a logical addition to the D & D scene and the one I have composed is a hodgepodge of at least three different kinds, the norse ‘skald’, the celtic ‘bard’, and the southern european ‘minstrel’. The skalds were often old warriors who were a kind of self appointed historian whose duty was to record the ancient battles, blood feuds, and deeds of exceptional prowess by setting them to verse much like the ancient Greek poets did. Tolkien, a great Nordic scholar, copied this style several times in the Lord of the Rings trilogy (for example Bilbo’s chant of Earendil the Mariner). The Celts, especially in Britain, had a much more organized structure in which the post of Barbs as official historians fell somewhere between the Gwelfili or public recorders and the Druids who were the judges as well as spiritual leaders. In the Celtic system Bards were trained by the Druids for a period of almost twenty years before they assumed their duties, among which was to follow the heroes into battle to provide an accurate account of their deeds, as well as to act as trusted intermediaries to settle hostilities among opposing tribes. By far the most common conception of a Bard is as a minstrel who entertained to courts of princes and kings in France, Italy and parts of Germany in the latter middle ages. Such a character was not as trust worthy as the Celtic or Nordic Bards and could be compared to a combination Thief-Illusionist. These characters were called Jongleurs by the French, from which the corrupt term juggler and court jester are remembered today . . .

I wanted to put the Bard into perspective so that his multitudinous abilities in Dungeons and Drageons can be explained. I have fashioned the character more after the Celtic and Norse types than anything else, thus he is a character who resembles a fighter more than anything else, but who knows something about the mysterious forces of magic and is well adept with his hands, etc.

[lucky9]

Between changing the bard to an Int-based prepared caster and not letting the bard cast spells that aren't on the mage list, these changes basically make the bard into a Mage LiteTM, when the entire point of the bard class is that they blur the lines between martial, skilled, arcane, and divine classes. The 1e bard originally cast spells as a druid, after all, not a magic-user.

Uhh, no. I intended for Bards to be able to learn to cast any spells up to level 6 that are on the Mage/ Sorcerer list except for those two or three that specifically say Wizard only.

Sorry for any confusion...?

Unless I'm misunderstanding and you do mean those two or three?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Uhh, no. I intended for Bards to be able to learn to cast any spells up to level 6 that are on the Mage/ Sorcerer list except for those two or three that specifically say Wizard only.

Sorry for any confusion...?

Unless I'm misunderstanding and you do mean those two or three?

I was referring to this part:


Bards may no longer learn or cast any spells from their list that also appear on any other class spell lists besides Mage/ Sorcerer; other than a few exceptions listed in the spells section.
For example: Know Direction, because it appears on the Druid spell list but not the Mage/ Sorcerer list.

Currently, while bards have a stunted progression compared to the full casters, they get a good selection of spells from other classes, both arcane and divine, to make up for it (in addition to bard-only spells, of course). If bards are just casting sorcerer+bard spells, then (A) their casting is strictly inferior to the sorcerer's, as he also casts sorcerer+bard spells but with more and higher-level slots, and (B) the bard loses a lot of key spells that make it worth playing.

Calm emotions and enthrall for turning fighting into talking ('cause bards are great at talking!), cure X wounds to be a backup healer (at least enough to get a fallen primary healer back on his feet), major late-game defensive buffs like freedom of movement and heroes' feast, major social manipulation spells like glibness and modify memory, major stealth spells like swift invisibility and silence...everything that would give you a reason to play a bard instead of a sorcerer (or beguiler, if you allow those in this set of houserules) is gone, with nothing to replace it.

[lucky9]

Currently, while bards have a stunted progression compared to the full casters, they get a good selection of spells from other classes, both arcane and divine, to make up for it (in addition to bard-only spells, of course). If bards are just casting sorcerer+bard spells, then (A) their casting is strictly inferior to the sorcerer's, as he also casts sorcerer+bard spells but with more and higher-level slots, and (B) the bard loses a lot of key spells that make it worth playing.

Calm emotions and enthrall for turning fighting into talking ('cause bards are great at talking!), cure X wounds to be a backup healer (at least enough to get a fallen primary healer back on his feet), major late-game defensive buffs like freedom of movement and heroes' feast, major social manipulation spells like glibness and modify memory, major stealth spells like swift invisibility and silence...everything that would give you a reason to play a bard instead of a sorcerer (or beguiler, if you allow those in this set of houserules) is gone, with nothing to replace it.

Hmmm, and here I thought that I was overpowering the Bard by giving them near full access to the Sor/ Wiz list...

About those particular spells you mentioned (calm emotions, enthrall, and the others that fit the Bard) I actually did intend to let them keep those; it would have been outlined more specifically in the final section I planned to post: Spells. But now you've given me some inspiration in your description about the Bard's origins.

I'm thinking about the "Music of Creation" type of flavor... How would it be if they were given those spells to cast at appropriate levels in the form of "songs" which are cast like my Sorcerers SLAs but with music for the verbal component and/or instrument as a focus?.. Maybe in exchange for one fewer regular spell slot but adding a slot for the special "songs," similar to the Cleric's domain slot?

Also, I will remove the line about giving Sorcerer and Mage's unique Bard spells.

Thank you for the input!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmmm, and here I thought that I was overpowering the Bard by giving them near full access to the Sor/ Wiz list...

If you were just adding wizard spell access to the bard without taking anything away, yes, you'd certainly be making it more powerful (though "overpowered" is debatable). But by taking things away that are more central to the bard's theme and role, you counterbalance that. It's a matter of synergy, just like adding a bunch of Wis-based perks to the monk would make it more powerful but adding Int- and Cha-based perks to the monk (even fairly powerful ones) would likely be value-neutral or even a nerf, because to benefit from them you'd have to spread your resources thin and potentially change your playstyle to one that the standard monk features don't support particularly well.


About those particular spells you mentioned (calm emotions, enthrall, and the others that fit the Bard) I actually did intend to let them keep those; it would have been outlined more specifically in the final section I planned to post: Spells. But now you've given me some inspiration in your description about the Bard's origins.

I'm thinking about the "Music of Creation" type of flavor... How would it be if they were given those spells to cast at appropriate levels in the form of "songs" which are cast like my Sorcerers SLAs but with music for the verbal component and/or instrument as a focus?.. Maybe in exchange for one fewer regular spell slot but adding a slot for the special "songs," similar to the Cleric's domain slot?

Also, I will remove the line about giving Sorcerer and Mage's unique Bard spells.

Going with a hybrid bardic music/casting setup would work nicely, yeah. Perhaps you could fill some of the bard's dead levels (5th/11th/17th for a nice pattern that counts gaining a new spell level as a non-dead level, 1st/4th/7th/10th/13th/17th/20th for a more regular progression and a nice capstone) with something called Music of the Spheres, where a "sphere" is a domain-like collection of the major non-bard non-wizard spells as SLAs. Each sphere would have a certain theme, such that picking the "sneaky" sphere would have all the spells you'd need to be good at stealth, the "defensive" sphere would have the good defensive buffs, and so forth.

You could theme the collections however you want; you could go with alchemical metals for a more sage-like and Ptolemaic feel (Silver for hypnotism/emotion stuff for the "silver tongue" cliché, Copper for memory stuff for the "penny for your thoughts" saying, Mercury for stealth since it's fast and elusive, and so forth), or the various celestial planar lords for a better tie-in with Words of Creation (as per BoED: Erathaol the Seer for spying and divinations, Domiel the Mercy-Bringer for healing and emotion stuff, Gwynharwyf the Whirling Fury for speed and offensive buffs, and so on), or whatever else strikes your fancy.

[rferries]

Tolkien also set the precedent for bards, as all "spellcasting" that we see (as opposed to magic from items or the more subtle crafting-like elven magic) involves singing, chanting, or poetry to invoke its power, from the wizards' declarations to Tom Bombadil's magic to Eru Ilúvatar singing the world into existence.

But here's the actual inspiration for the Bard class, right from the horse's mouth:

Sorry for the delayed reply and thanks for the explanation!