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LudicSavant
2019-03-25, 03:34 PM
So it's often said that the genasi are a bit on the underwhelming side compared to their fellow planetouched (Aasimar and the better variations of Tiefling), not to mention other races like Half-Elf, Hill Dwarf, or Variant Human. Has anyone rebalanced them or made them more interesting? How might you do so?

Crisis21
2019-03-25, 09:57 PM
Taking a look, there's a lot that needs to be improved. For one, the Air and Earth Genasi have significantly fewer features than Fire and Water.

Air and Earth Genasi need a cantrip in their spellcasting repertoire and a couple other benefits as well.


For Air, I'd give them the ability to withstand falling better. Have them take 1d6 damage per 20 feet of falling distance rather than per 10 feet. Possibly also increase their jumping height/distance.

For Earth, I'd let them have Powerful Build, doubling their carrying capacity. Possibly also increase their unarmed damage to 1d4.

LudicSavant
2019-03-25, 10:37 PM
What about making them more in the style of the Volo Aasimar, with elemental transformations? I know one of my players would jump at the idea of playing an Air Genasi that gets to fly a bit.

Crisis21
2019-03-25, 11:27 PM
Heck yes.

Actually, there are a series of 6th level spells called Investiture of [Element] that might be interesting. Just take out the part that allows them to AoE once per round and they would make a nifty once a day racial feature for Genasi.

LudicSavant
2019-03-31, 03:48 AM
Any other opinions?

Crisis21
2019-03-31, 10:27 AM
Not much. I mean, they're supposed to be elemental versions of the Tieflings and Aasimar, right? So I guess make them more similar to those two.

theVoidWatches
2019-03-31, 05:23 PM
I would go with a little bit of suitable magic and 1 or 2 other features. It's a shame not to have the elemental cantrips available, after all.

Air Genasi can get Gust, Thunderclap, and a 1/rest Feather Fall - along with that, they reduce all fall damage they take by 1 per level (which, yes, makes a high-level Air Genasi monk just flat-out immune to fall damage), and their jump distance is doubled.
Earth Genasi have Mold Earth, Magic Stone, and 1/rest Earth Tremor. Their other features can be Powerful Build and let's say a Stone's Endurance thing - reduce damage they take by 1d12+Con mod once per rest.
Fire Genasi, of course, have Control Flames, Produce Flame, and 1/rest Burning Hands. Along with that I'll give them resistance to fire damage and leave it at that.
Water Genasi get Shape Water, Ray of Frost, and 1/rest Ice Knife. Their extra features can be a swim speed and the ability to breath underwater.

Bjarkmundur
2019-03-31, 05:59 PM
https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Genasi

The 4e genasi felt really flavourful with their encounter powers. I'd love for the genasi to get an Aasimar-like feature. Something with a Duration and recharge on long rest, and full of flavour.

Crisis21
2019-04-01, 12:23 PM
I think I've got enough ideas to whip out something for each of them. I'll give it a try and post later.

sandmote
2019-04-01, 01:42 PM
I usually give Air Genasi the Gust cantrip, and Earth Genasi the Mold Earth cantrip.

If you wanted to boost the genasi a bit more, I'd recommend changing the base race con bonus to +1, and the stat bonus each subrace gets to +2. Every class wants con, but it is usually less of a priority than dex/str/int/wis for a build that uses that stat.

Crisis21
2019-04-01, 10:48 PM
Okay, so here is my attempt at improving the Genasi. I will include the full racial characteristics that aren't being changed for completeness's sake. I watered down the Investiture spells to make elemental transformations for each race. Changes will be highlighted in green.


Genasi


Languages

You can speak, read, and write Common and Primordial. Primordial is a guttural language, filled with harsh syllables and hard consonants.

Ability Score Increase

Your Constitution score increases by 2.

Age

Genasi mature at about the same rate as humans and reach adulthood in their late teens. They live somewhat longer than humans do, up to 120 years.

Alignment

Independent and self-reliant, genasi tend toward a neutral alignment.

Size

Genasi are as varied as their mortal parents but are generally built like humans, standing anywhere from 5 feet to over 6 feet tall. Your size is Medium.

Speed

Your base walking speed is 30 feet.


Air Genasi

Ability Score Increase

Your Dexterity score increases by 1.

Unending Breath

You can hold your breath indefinitely while you’re not incapacitated.

Child of the Air

You are resistant to falling damage and you double the height and length of your jumping distance.

Mingle with the Wind

You know the Gust cantrip. At 3rd level you gain the ability to cast Levitate once with this trait. When you cast these spells using this trait, you require no material components, and you regain the ability to cast them when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Essence of the Wind

Starting at 5th level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Wind whirls around you for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. Until the effect ends you gain the following benefits: Ranged weapon attacks made against you have disadvantage on the attack roll and you gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed. If you are still flying when the effect ends, you fall, unless you can somehow prevent it.


Earth Genasi

Ability Score Increase

Your Strength score increases by 1.

Earth Walk

You can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without expending extra movement.

Powerful Build

You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.

Merge with Stone

You know the Mold Earth cantrip. At 3rd level you gain the ability to cast Pass without Trace once with this trait. When you cast these spells using this trait, you require no material components, and you regain the ability to cast them when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Essence of the Earth

Starting at 5th level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Bits of rock spread across your body for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. Until the effect ends ends you gain the following benefits: You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical attacks. You can move through solid earth or stone as if it was air and without destabilizing it, but you can't end your movement there. If you do so, you are ejected to the nearest unoccupied space, this effect ends, and you are stunned until the end of your next turn.


Fire Genasi

Ability Score Increase

Your Intelligence score increases by 1.

Darkvision

You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. Your ties to the Elemental Plane of Fire make your darkvision unusual: everything you see in darkness is in a shade of red.

Fire Resistance

You have resistance to fire damage.

Reach to the Blaze

You know the Produce Flame cantrip. At 3rd level you gain the ability to cast Burning Hands once with this trait as a 2nd level spell. When you cast these spells using this trait, you require no material components, and you regain the ability to cast them when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Essence of the Flame

Starting at 5th level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Flames race across your body, shedding bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet for for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. The flames do not harm you. Until the effect ends ends you gain the following benefits: You are immune to fire damage, you have resistance to cold damage, and any creature that moves within 5 feet of you for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there takes 1d10 fire damage.


Water Genasi

Ability Score Increase

Your Wisdom score increases by 1.

Acid Resistance

You have resistance to acid damage.

Amphibious

You can breathe air and water.

Swim

You have a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.

Call to the Wave

You know the Shape Water cantrip. At 3rd level you gain the ability to cast Create or Destroy Water once with this trait as a 2nd level spell. When you cast these spells using this trait, you require no material components, and you regain the ability to cast them when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Essence of the Frozen Sea

Starting at 5th level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Ice rimes your body for for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. Until the effect ends ends you gain the following benefits: You are immune to cold damage, you have resistance to fire damage, you can move across difficult terrain created by ice or snow without spending extra movement, and the ground in a 10-foot radius around you is icy and is difficult terrain for creatures other than you. The radius moves with you.


Personally, I'd prefer an Investiture of Water spell to crib from, but I'd rather not to crib from homebrew for this at the moment.

sandmote
2019-04-02, 12:29 AM
I'm personally not sure how I feel about both an aasimar style transformation and full racial spellcasting. Aasimar get the light cantrip... and a far more scaling version of cure wounds, and they aren't a weak race. Slightly awkward to stat out, but not weak.

On detect Alignment (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) (assuming all four racial transformations are equal to the ones the aasimar get):

Base Race: 8
Air: (8)+4+3+3+6+8=32
Earth: (8)+4+2+2+6+8=30
Fire: (8)+4+3+4+6+8=33
Water: (8)+4+3+2+2+6+8=33

This is without counting primordial as +1 as the link does (for reasons I'm not clear on). And yet those figures are still pretty high. I'd drop the third spells in the progression to even them out.



Essence of the Earth

Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Bits of rock spread across your body for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. Until the effect ends ends you gain the following benefits: You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical attacks and you can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without spending extra movement. You can move through solid earth or stone as if it was air and without destabilizing it, but you can't end your movement there. If you do so, you are ejected to the nearest unoccupied space, this spell ends, and you are stunned until the end of your next turn.
For the sake of clarity here, I would remove the parts that say "you can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without spending extra movement," and "this spell." The former because the benefit is the same as is granted by Earth Walk.

Crisis21
2019-04-02, 09:44 AM
I'm personally not sure how I feel about both an aasimar style transformation and full racial spellcasting. Aasimar get the light cantrip... and a far more scaling version of cure wounds, and they aren't a weak race. Slightly awkward to stat out, but not weak.

On detect Alignment (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) (assuming all four racial transformations are equal to the ones the aasimar get):

Base Race: 8
Air: (8)+4+3+3+6+8=32
Earth: (8)+4+2+2+6+8=30
Fire: (8)+4+3+4+6+8=33
Water: (8)+4+3+2+2+6+8=33

This is without counting primordial as +1 as the link does (for reasons I'm not clear on). And yet those figures are still pretty high. I'd drop the third spells in the progression to even them out.
I'm not sure the transformations are equal to what the Aasimar get since I recently played one and he got bonus damage equal to his level on every successful attack.

Now, the elemental transformations were cribbed from the effects of 6th level spells, the Investiture series, by dropping the 1/round elemental attack and reducing the duration to 1 minute instead of 10. I am open to suggestions on this front.

For reference, here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/genasi) is where I got the Genasi stats.

Dropping the third spell in the progression sounds good to me personally. It leaves them all with a cantrip and a level 1 spell thematic to the element.

However, the current Earth and Air Genasi get one level 2 spell and the current Fire and Water Genasi get a cantrip and a level 1 spell. So I could not do that without removing existing traits from 2 of the Genasi subraces. And I'd like to avoid that if possible since the major complaint raised in this thread is that they're underpowered as they are.




For the sake of clarity here, I would remove the parts that say "you can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without spending extra movement," and "this spell." The former because the benefit is the same as is granted by Earth Walk.

Whoops. Fixed.

sandmote
2019-04-02, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure the transformations are equal to what the Aasimar get since I recently played one and he got bonus damage equal to his level on every successful attack.
According to the version of the aasimar I've seen, they're supposed to get that bonus damage once per turn. still good, but not as strong as "on every successful attack." Particularly once you get extra attack.

Also, you're granting defensive abilities, which isn't something aasimar get from their transformation.


Dropping the third spell in the progression sounds good to me personally. It leaves them all with a cantrip and a level 1 spell thematic to the element.

However, the current Earth and Air Genasi get one level 2 spell and the current Fire and Water Genasi get a cantrip and a level 1 spell. So I could not do that without removing existing traits from 2 of the Genasi subraces. And I'd like to avoid that if possible since the major complaint raised in this thread is that they're underpowered as they are.
Having a cantrip plus the 1/day spell the existing genasi get is the buff I use, so I'm going to leave this for someone else to comment on.

Crisis21
2019-04-02, 06:36 PM
According to the version of the aasimar I've seen, they're supposed to get that bonus damage once per turn. still good, but not as strong as "on every successful attack." Particularly once you get extra attack.

Also, you're granting defensive abilities, which isn't something aasimar get from their transformation.



Ah. I was playing a primary spellcaster Aasimar so I think I may have glossed over the 'once a turn' aspect.

So, a cantrip and one 2nd level spell (or 1st level spell cast as a second level spell) for Genasi spellcasting?

Edit: Okay, so I edited the post so that the spellcasting is 1 cantrip and at 3rd level one 2nd-level spell (upcast for Fire and Water Genasi). The elemental transformations are now not available until 5th level.

How does that look?

sandmote
2019-04-03, 04:54 PM
Ah. I was playing a primary spellcaster Aasimar so I think I may have glossed over the 'once a turn' aspect.

So, a cantrip and one 2nd level spell (or 1st level spell cast as a second level spell) for Genasi spellcasting?

Edit: Okay, so I edited the post so that the spellcasting is 1 cantrip and at 3rd level one 2nd-level spell (upcast for Fire and Water Genasi). The elemental transformations are now not available until 5th level.

How does that look?

I mean, both look fine for trying to buff the genasi. Although I do think the update is slightly better for keeping genasi from having the opposite problem.

Bjarkmundur
2019-04-04, 09:04 AM
The cantrips actually rubs me the wrong way. They feel unnecessary and unthematical. The Genasi IS the Element, not the master of it.

How do these compare to Detect Balance (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit&ved=2ahUKEwi4v5CCzbbhAhWCfFAKHeHcAFEQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1D47rAkGJxdav2dvFgDvtU)?

Crisis21
2019-04-04, 09:08 AM
The cantrips actually rubs me the wrong way. They feel unnecessary and unthematical. The Genasi IS the Element, not the master of it.


Incorrect. Like the tiefling or the aasimar, the genasi are mortals with outsider heritage, not outsiders themselves.

sandmote
2019-04-04, 05:42 PM
The cantrips actually rubs me the wrong way. They feel unnecessary and unthematical. The Genasi IS the Element, not the master of it.

How do these compare to Detect Balance (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit&ved=2ahUKEwi4v5CCzbbhAhWCfFAKHeHcAFEQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1D47rAkGJxdav2dvFgDvtU)?
Here's my count from before Crisis dropped the 3rd spells:

On detect Alignment (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) (assuming all four racial transformations are equal to the ones the aasimar get):

Base Race: 8
Air: (8)+4+3+3+6+8=32
Earth: (8)+4+2+2+6+8=30
Fire: (8)+4+3+4+6+8=33
Water: (8)+4+3+2+2+6+8=33

This is without counting primordial as +1 as the link does (for reasons I'm not clear on). And yet those figures are still pretty high. I'd drop the third spells in the progression to even them out.

Reduce those by 2 each for the new version, I think. So that's

30 points for Air, 28 for earth, 31 for Fire, and 31 for Water. Near the usual limit for most races, but not over it. Esspecially given the races still all get +2 Con and +1 of the other stat, I don't expect this version is strong enough for your entire party to become Genasi.

Rukelnikov
2019-04-04, 06:05 PM
The simplest and likely not best method, would be to make their long rest spells recharge in short rest.

Bjarkmundur
2019-04-05, 03:11 AM
Incorrect. Like the tiefling or the aasimar, the genasi are mortals with outsider heritage, not outsiders themselves.

You still must agree with me that the high point of playing a genasi is the "become your element" transformations. It's just soooo coooooooool.

Whether it's becoming air and moving through enemies, becoming fire and burning everyone around you or charging up with lighting and shock everyone with your next attack, I think we can both agree that removing features to make more design space for cool transformation abilities is the right way to go.

Crisis21
2019-04-05, 08:35 AM
You still must agree with me that the high point of playing a genasi is the "become your element" transformations. It's just soooo coooooooool.

Whether it's becoming air and moving through enemies, becoming fire and burning everyone around you or charging up with lighting and shock everyone with your next attack, I think we can both agree that removing features to make more design space for cool transformation abilities is the right way to go.

Are you volunteering to write them?

LudicSavant
2019-04-12, 06:06 AM
Thanks a ton for the response, Crisis! Going over it (air genasi first)...


Air Genasi

Ability Score Increase

Your Dexterity score increases by 1.

Unending Breath

You can hold your breath indefinitely while you’re not incapacitated.

Child of the Air

You are resistant to falling damage and you double the height and length of your jumping distance.

Mingle with the Wind

You know the Gust cantrip. At 3rd level you gain the ability to cast Levitate once with this trait. When you cast these spells using this trait, you require no material components, and you regain the ability to cast them when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Essence of the Wind

Starting at 5th level, you can use your action to unleash the elemental energy within yourself, causing your eyes to glow with power. Wind whirls around you for one minute, or until you end it with a bonus action. Until the effect ends you gain the following benefits: Ranged weapon attacks made against you have disadvantage on the attack roll and you gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed. If you are still flying when the effect ends, you fall, unless you can somehow prevent it.

Some thoughts:
Stats are ideal for a Rogue or Dex Fighter. Seems like it'd be inclined towards ranged builds.
Constitution as your casting stat is actually a bad thing when considering the maximum optimization potential of a race, because it essentially guarantees that your casting stat will be a secondary or tertiary stat.
Gust is a less useful cantrip than Light. It's rated red or brown on pretty much every guide I've seen, and I feel that this rating is justified. I kinda feel like it's just taking up design space. Could we replace it with something?
Resistance to falling damage is not nearly as good as Necrotic and Radiant resistance. And it does nothing to help with the worst part of falling: Falling prone.
Lacks Darkvision (which the Aasimar has). I actually think Darkvision is a pretty valuable ability (and lacking it is part of why non-variant humans and Dragonborn are less than merely mediocre). Sure, it won't come up all the time in every campaign, but in others it comes up all the time. I mean it's not like I never see people using the Darkvision spell from time to time, and it's a 2nd level spell which grants Darkvision for 8 hours.
Thematically, Levitate strikes me as an alternate way to float, overlapping a bit with their transformation (though of course Levitate can also be used offensively). It might be a bit more fun to diversify. Mechanically, I think that Levitate 1/day with Constitution as a casting stat could be edged out by a +(level) hit points 1/day and Darkvision, especially since it has some overlap with the situations you'd want to spend your action on your transformation.
Aasimar get a lot of mileage out of their ability to add (level) Radiant damage per turn (it adds more to DPR than people often think, because it procs if at least one attack lands, rather than if a specific attack lands, which means the effect is less likely to "miss"). This trades that out for Disadvantage vs Ranged attacks, which is synergistic with kiting, flying ranged characters (which this has the right statline for). Seems like a worthwhile transformation, albeit a bit more specialized than the Protector's.
The Protector Aasimar also has a good statline for a ranged build too, albeit of the Eldritch Blasting sort rather than the Crossbow sort.


How do these compare to Detect Balance (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit&ved=2ahUKEwi4v5CCzbbhAhWCfFAKHeHcAFEQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1D47rAkGJxdav2dvFgDvtU)?

I don't think that sheet is terribly accurate. It is very easy to make overpowered or underpowered races using it, because it's not good at seeing how things combine to become more (or less) than the sum of their parts (and often has questionable ratings for the parts to boot). The real power in 5e tends to come from synergies.

For example, the sheet believes that Tabaxi, Hobgoblins, Half-Orcs, and Goblins (which all have strong builds associated with them) are about equal to Water Genasi (generally considered quite underpowered) and much weaker than Lizardfolk (which have a lot of anti-synergy, and generally aren't considered a top race choice for any build). It also thinks that Eladrin and Shadar-Kai (which are ubiquitous in CharOp) are equal to Sea Elves (which are not).

As far as individual ratings, it has weirdness like rating actual Darkvision worse than the Darkvision spell 1/day.



Thanks to everyone who has responded so far! I'm definitely leaning in the direction of basing it on the Volo's Aasimar (in fact, I'm wondering if maybe I should try some Volo-style Tieflings, too. Volo-style planetouched for everyone!). Still fiddling with my own take.

Does anyone have any additional ideas? How would you revamp the genasi?

Bjarkmundur
2019-04-15, 04:36 AM
I'm definitely leaning in the direction of basing it on the Volo's Aasimar (in fact, I'm wondering if maybe I should try some Volo-style Tieflings, too. Volo-style planetouched for everyone!).

I agree with this. I feel like the Aasimar perfectly encapsulates the feel of a character with an otherworldly origin.

Crisis21
2019-04-15, 09:57 AM
Some thoughts:
Stats are ideal for a Rogue or Dex Fighter. Seems like it'd be inclined towards ranged builds.
Constitution as your casting stat is actually a bad thing when considering the maximum optimization potential of a race, because it essentially guarantees that your casting stat will be a secondary or tertiary stat.
Gust is a less useful cantrip than Light. It's rated red or brown on pretty much every guide I've seen, and I feel that this rating is justified. I kinda feel like it's just taking up design space. Could we replace it with something?
Resistance to falling damage is not nearly as good as Necrotic and Radiant resistance. And it does nothing to help with the worst part of falling: Falling prone.
Lacks Darkvision (which the Aasimar has). I actually think Darkvision is a pretty valuable ability (and lacking it is part of why non-variant humans and Dragonborn are less than merely mediocre). Sure, it won't come up all the time in every campaign, but in others it comes up all the time. I mean it's not like I never see people using the Darkvision spell from time to time, and it's a 2nd level spell which grants Darkvision for 8 hours.
Thematically, Levitate strikes me as an alternate way to float, overlapping a bit with their transformation (though of course Levitate can also be used offensively). It might be a bit more fun to diversify. Mechanically, I think that Levitate 1/day with Constitution as a casting stat could be edged out by a +(level) hit points 1/day and Darkvision, especially since it has some overlap with the situations you'd want to spend your action on your transformation.
Aasimar get a lot of mileage out of their ability to add (level) Radiant damage per turn (it adds more to DPR than people often think, because it procs if at least one attack lands, rather than if a specific attack lands, which means the effect is less likely to "miss"). This trades that out for Disadvantage vs Ranged attacks, which is synergistic with kiting, flying ranged characters (which this has the right statline for). Seems like a worthwhile transformation, albeit a bit more specialized than the Protector's.
The Protector Aasimar also has a good statline for a ranged build too, albeit of the Eldritch Blasting sort rather than the Crossbow sort.



I don't think that sheet is terribly accurate. It is very easy to make overpowered or underpowered races using it, because it's not good at seeing how things combine to become more (or less) than the sum of their parts (and often has questionable ratings for the parts to boot). The real power in 5e tends to come from synergies.

For example, the sheet believes that Tabaxi, Hobgoblins, Half-Orcs, and Goblins (which all have strong builds associated with them) are about equal to Water Genasi (generally considered quite underpowered) and much weaker than Lizardfolk (which have a lot of anti-synergy, and generally aren't considered a top race choice for any build). It also thinks that Eladrin and Shadar-Kai (which are ubiquitous in CharOp) are equal to Sea Elves (which are not).

As far as individual ratings, it has weirdness like rating actual Darkvision worse than the Darkvision spell 1/day.


The goal is to make the Genasi more thematically similar to the Aasimar or the Tiefling, not identical. Yes, Darkvision is very useful, but it's not universal either. I can totally see a descendant of air elementals not having it.

I am not responsible for the use of Constitution as a casting stat, that's all WotC's fault. Perhaps it is suboptimal, but it's an established feature of the race and not one I feel is in dire need of being changed. Also, Constitution may be a secondary stat, but it's a secondary stat of essentially every build in the game, meaning there's no reason why your casting stat couldn't at least be respectable no matter what class you went with.

Maybe Gust is less useful than Light, but, again, these are the descendants of air elementals. What other cantrip would you expect them to have?

Yes, Levitate is an alternate way to float. It's also their original one and I don't feel right taking away their existing traits when the stated goal was making them a stronger race. Plus, having two one-use-per-long-rest ways to float is better than one one-use-per-long-rest way to float.

Aasimar do get a lot of mileage out of their added damage, which is honestly precisely why I didn't feel the need to add it to the Genasi. Similar, not identical. A one minute area of effect transformation (based on a watered-down 6th level spell no less) felt a bit more in line with an elemental than a straight-up damage buff. In this case, the transformation is one minute of flight and protection from ranged attacks. I can see that being preferable to some players than a one minute once-a-turn damage buff.


On the accuracy of Detect Balance: I can't say much because I'm not quite experienced enough with D&D to predict how many things might synergize together. However, I will say that Detect Balance is one of the most helpful resources for race building that I have found. If you know of a better one, please do enlighten me.

LudicSavant
2019-04-15, 11:54 AM
The goal is to make the Genasi more thematically similar to the Aasimar or the Tiefling, not identical. Yes, Darkvision is very useful, but it's not universal either. I can totally see a descendant of air elementals not having it. :smallconfused:

I wasn't suggesting that they have it. I was analyzing the balance of the race.

Marcloure
2019-04-15, 12:04 PM
https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Genasi

The 4e genasi felt really flavourful with their encounter powers. I'd love for the genasi to get an Aasimar-like feature. Something with a Duration and recharge on long rest, and full of flavour.

I'll second this. The 4e genasi had some really cool and flavorful transformation powers, some which were very uncommon in 4e by not being combat-oriented. They could be further enhanced by racial feats, but I don't think that matter much here.

LudicSavant
2019-04-17, 10:13 PM
I'll second this. The 4e genasi had some really cool and flavorful transformation powers, some which were very uncommon in 4e by not being combat-oriented. They could be further enhanced by racial feats, but I don't think that matter much here.

For someone who didn't really get into 4e, what were the flavorful / noncombat powers? On that wiki entry I'm mostly seeing things like elemental resistances and damage.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-18, 05:50 AM
Genasi aren't underpowered
how is a +2 to con underpowered?
Air genasi can hol their breath forever, that may seem situational, but used correctly could lead to some awesome sneak attacks
Personally the only genasi subtype that needs buffing is water genasi, because air genasi can breath underwater too, and can LEVITATE.

LudicSavant
2019-04-18, 06:25 AM
Genasi aren't underpowered
how is a +2 to con underpowered? Because lots of things can get a +2 to Con, while getting other abilities along with it that are more valuable than what the genasi gets. That's true whether it's Hill Dwarves, Mountain Dwarves, Duergar, Warding Dwarves, Warforged, Shifters, Hobgoblins, Loxodons, Simic Hybrids, or Variant Humans who grabbed a +1 Con half-feat.


air genasi can breath underwater

And a Simic Hybrid has +2 Con, can breathe water, and has a swim speed and has Darkvision and has a +1 to AC or Grappling Appendages (which work similarly to having Tavern Brawler and grant natural weapons and give you extra limbs).

And of those features, the ability to breathe underwater is by far the least valuable. Not because I don't think that breathing underwater is important, but because Water Breathing is a 24 hour duration ritual that affects the whole party, which means that as soon as even one person in the party can cast it (which usually happens at about level 5), it is basically a permanent feature for the whole party.

Marcloure
2019-04-18, 01:07 PM
For someone who didn't really get into 4e, what were the flavorful / noncombat powers? On that wiki entry I'm mostly seeing things like elemental resistances and damage.

The wiki lists powers in a table below. Of course some of them also have uses in combat, but they can be very good out of combat as well.

Some exemples are:

Water can walk on liquid surfaces without taking any damage, squeeze without any penalty, and pass through enemies.
Acid can do the same, but also deals damage in your wake.
Sand can go through openings large enough for a single grain of sand.
Void can banish itself and teleport 15 ft. when back.
Wind can take a fly movement up to 40 ft.
Magma can turn itself into magma and gain immunity to fire for two turns.

Wizard_Lizard
2019-04-18, 08:18 PM
Because lots of things can get a +2 to Con, while getting other abilities along with it that are more valuable than what the genasi gets. That's true whether it's Hill Dwarves, Mountain Dwarves, Duergar, Warding Dwarves, Warforged, Shifters, Hobgoblins, Loxodons, Simic Hybrids, or Variant Humans who grabbed a +1 Con half-feat.



And a Simic Hybrid has +2 Con, can breathe water, and has a swim speed and has Darkvision and has a +1 to AC or Grappling Appendages (which work similarly to having Tavern Brawler and grant natural weapons and give you extra limbs).

And of those features, the ability to breathe underwater is by far the least valuable. Not because I don't think that breathing underwater is important, but because Water Breathing is a 24 hour duration ritual that affects the whole party, which means that as soon as even one person in the party can cast it (which usually happens at about level 5), it is basically a permanent feature for the whole party.

ok. I agree. But despite being suboptimal mechanics wise, they can be fun to roleplay.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-18, 10:00 PM
They sure can. Isn't that the point of this thread? Trying to improve them so that they're on-level mechanically as well as having great flavor that makes them fun to play?

snafuy
2019-04-21, 07:28 AM
Since Fire & Water Genasi are considered reasonable, have Air & Earth follow the same pattern.

Fire:
Darkvision.
Fire Resistance.
Reach the Blaze: Produce Flame at will. 3rd level: Burning Hands 1/day.

Water:
Acid Resistance.
Amphibious.
Swim.
Call the Wave: Shape Water at will. 3rd level: Create/Destroy Water 1/day.

Air:
Unending Breath.
choose Lightning or Thunder resistance.
Mingle with Wind: Gust at will. 3rd level: Levitate 1/day.

Earth:
Earth Walk.
Sure-Footed: While on solid ground, you have advantage on ability checks and saving throws to resist forced movement or being knocked prone.
Merge with Stone: Mold Earth at will. 3rd level: Pass Without Trace 1/day. 5th level: Meld With Stone 1/day.

LudicSavant
2019-04-21, 08:31 AM
They sure can. Isn't that the point of this thread? Trying to improve them so that they're on-level mechanically as well as having great flavor that makes them fun to play?

It is indeed :smallsmile:


Since Fire & Water Genasi are considered reasonable

By who exactly? :smallconfused:

Fire genasi are basically just a worse version of tieflings, and tieflings were never a high tier race (with the exception of Winged). Same Darkvision and Fire Resistance, much worse casting, and less choice of ability score modifiers.

The choice of Produce Flame and Burning Hands (as a level 1 spell unlocked at 3rd level) with Constitution as a casting stat (e.g. basically never going to be your highest stat) means that their racial casting is basically just fluff ribbons. Produce Flame won't match your basic resourceless attacks (due to the combination of it being a mediocre cantrip to begin with and the fact that Constitution is everyone's secondary or tertiary stat), and the Burning Hands is worse than the Dragonborn's oft-maligned breath weapon.

By contrast, a Tiefling's casting uses a primary stat, two of their spells aren't stat-dependent anyways and aren't the sort of spells that go obsolete as you increase in levels (like Burning Hands will), and the one that is stat-dependent is a good spell that fills a niche with little direct competition, cast at a higher level than Produce Flame.

snafuy
2019-04-21, 02:57 PM
Fire genasi are basically just a worse version of tieflings, and tieflings were never a high tier race (with the exception of Winged). Same Darkvision and Fire Resistance, much worse casting, and less choice of ability score modifiers.
Hmm, good point, comparison to Tiefling is a valid benchmark.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Genasi says traditional Genasi features in AD&D & 3E are:

Air: Dex, Levitate, Hold Breath
Earth: Str/Con, Pass without Trace
Fire: Int, Fire Resist, Control Fire
Water: Con, Amphibious, Create Water

And in 4E:

Air: resist cold & flight hop (windsoul) or resist lightning & damage boost (stormsoul)
Earth: +1 to saving throws, earth tremor
Fire: resist fire, hellish rebuke
Water: amphibious, +2 vs ongoing, movement utility

So how about:

Air:
+1 Dex.
Unending Breath.
Lightning Resistance.
Mingle with Wind: Gust at will. 3rd level: Levitate 1/day. 5th level: Gaseous Form (self only) 1/day.

Earth:
+1 Str.
Earth Walk.
Siege Monster: Your melee attacks deal double damage to objects and structures.
Merge with Stone: Mold Earth at will. 3rd level: Pass Without Trace 1/day. 5th level: Meld Into Stone 1/day.

Fire:
+1 Int.
Darkvision.
Fire Resistance.
Reach the Blaze: Control Flames at will. 3rd level: Produce Flame at will. 5th level: Protection from Energy (fire only) 1/day.

Water:
+1 Wis.
Acid Resistance.
Amphibious & Swim.
Call the Wave: Shape Water at will. 3rd level: Create/Destroy Water 1/day. 5th level: Water Breathing 1/day.