[3.5] Order of leveling at level 1

[Gen Melchett]

So I understand the order of leveling up as described in the PHB 58, but is the same order used at level 1? I’m guessing the answer is yes, but it makes things a little weird for certain feats.

For example:
1. A level 1 cleric can’t take extra turning.
2. A level 1 barbarian can’t take extra rage.
3. A level 1 character with the able learner feat doesn’t gain any benefit from it at level 1.

Intuitively it seems like things should work differently at level 1 to avoid this kind of thing, especially the able learner one. Able learner is a level 1 only feat and it sounds like a thing you’d be born with, so it seems wrong that you wouldn’t benefit from it in the time before your first class level. After all that pre-class period is presumably a time when you would have a lot to learn. Mechanically the feat also seems significantly weaker if it doesn’t affect you when you get the most skill points.

The feat open minded gives you 5 skill points and lets you spend them that level after you’ve spent your normal class skill points, so spending skill points after gaining feats isn’t unprecedented.

So what’s the RAW, RAI and opinions on the issue?

[Mike Miller]

You pick a class and then level up in whatever order you want. You are incorrect about those feats being unavailable.

[Gen Melchett]

Oh that's very uncharacteristic of 3.5, but great. Where does it say that exactly?

[NontheistCleric]

So I understand the order of leveling up as described in the PHB 58, but is the same order used at level 1? I’m guessing the answer is yes, but it makes things a little weird for certain feats.

For example:
1. A level 1 cleric can’t take extra turning.
2. A level 1 barbarian can’t take extra rage.
3. A level 1 character with the able learner feat doesn’t gain any benefit from it at level 1.

Intuitively it seems like things should work differently at level 1 to avoid this kind of thing, especially the able learner one. Able learner is a level 1 only feat and it sounds like a thing you’d be born with, so it seems wrong that you wouldn’t benefit from it in the time before your first class level. After all that pre-class period is presumably a time when you would have a lot to learn. Mechanically the feat also seems significantly weaker if it doesn’t affect you when you get the most skill points.

The feat open minded gives you 5 skill points and lets you spend them that level after you’ve spent your normal class skill points, so spending skill points after gaining feats isn’t unprecedented.

So what’s the RAW, RAI and opinions on the issue?


Oh that's very uncharacteristic of 3.5, but great. Where does it say that exactly?

You seem to be a little confused on the order itself. On page 58 of the PHB, class is stated to be chosen before anything else, so there's no reason why a cleric could not take Extra Turning or a Barbarian Extra Rage, since they would already have the class features.

Assuming the order as it is stated in the PHB must be followed strictly (I admit this is the first time I've ever looked at that section so I'm not an expert), you seem to be correct about Able Learner.

[Gen Melchett]

Well rage and turn undead are class features which are last on the list so if you have to follow that order at level 1 I don't think you could. Just like a level 3 rogue couldn't take merciful strike (god knows why they'd want to) despite getting the 2d6 sneak attack at that level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think the listed order is strict; you need to make sure that you have all the dependencies (i.e. you can't select skills before class), but other than that, there's no reason to apply level-up benefits in a specific order. In any case, the feat rules explicitly state that you can select a feat at the same level you meet the prerequisites (PHB 87).

[Gen Melchett]

I'm right there with you, it seems unnecessary to be so strict about the order, although it may throw off the balance of some things. By RAW though I think it's a no go. Very little else is numbered in the PHB and the order makes sense. I think the bit about taking feats the same level you qualify is for skill requirements.
This is all for levels above 1 though. What about at level 1? Is there a place where it says you can use any order?

[jdizzlean]

as with just about everything else, you apply the effects in the order most advantageous to you.

of course you CAN also read it as written in stone that you must do x before y before z.

however, generally at level 1, the things you take, go into effect immediately, so there's no reason why able learner wouldn't apply immediately. if that wasn't the case, i don't think there'd be as many feats restricted to 1st level as there is. forcing you to take something that doesn't apply when you take it is just silly after all.

[Troacctid]

Nothing in RAW mandates that kind of strict order AFAIK.