+1 to spellcasting class clarification

[ByOdin'sBeard]

As the title indicates, I'm having a debate with a player (not mine, however soon to be) about how the "+1 to spellcasters level" affects the spellcasting class that you apply it to.

I've seen it ruled alot as: only variables such as DC,damage dice, duration, range, etc...

I've also seen it ruled as: everything stated above, in addition to learning the per day/spells known and such; which to me makes sense, that's how I've always ran it.

Reason being, it seems redundant if you have a fighter 4/sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10 who casts spells of up to 7th-level but only actually KNOWS 2 spells of 3rd-level.

What I'm really asking is, do you gain spells known as well? If I'm a sorcerer 5/ Eldritch knight 10, can I cast 7th level spells?

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I've come to the conclusion that this an unneeded post, as every PrC that grants the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" specifies:

"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."

I'm unaware as to how the person came to their conclusion, or why I doubted myself, but thanks for the read.

[DrMotives]

For most classes, you are correct. The first option that you're discarding does come up in a few cases, largely feats and a few class features to apply to a subgroup of spells a caster can cast. For example, the reserve feat Acidic Splatter adds "+1 competence bonus to caster level when casting acid spells". This means that if I have that feat as a 3rd level wizard and cast Melf's Acid Arrow, I cast it like a 4th level wizard. However, I don't get access to [acid] tagged spells a level early, it's just that at the moment of casting they come out slightly upgraded.

[The Kool]

You need to distinguish here between "+1 caster level" and "+1 level of spellcasting". The latter is a class feature, and improves the spellcasting feature of another class as if you had taken a level in said class. The former affects only damage dice, durations, and the like.

It's worth noting that the most common debate is whether the 2 free spells a wizard gets to place in their book are counted as 'spells known'. For what it's worth, I hold that they do, as they are spells that the wizard knows that are gained from leveling as defined by their spellcasting ability, thus you would continue to gain these 2 spells at every "+1 level of spellcasting". Others hold that it does not, because it's in a spellbook and not in your mind.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

You need to distinguish here between "+1 caster level" and "+1 level of spellcasting". The latter is a class feature, and improves the spellcasting feature of another class as if you had taken a level in said class. The former affects only damage dice, durations, and the like.

Yeah sorry I noticed that I used like 3 different ways of spelling on the post. I've heard alot about he wizards spells as well, so thank you for the input!

[ericgrau]

You need to distinguish here between "+1 caster level" and "+1 level of spellcasting". The latter is a class feature, and improves the spellcasting feature of another class as if you had taken a level in said class. The former affects only damage dice, durations, and the like.

It's worth noting that the most common debate is whether the 2 free spells a wizard gets to place in their book are counted as 'spells known'. For what it's worth, I hold that they do, as they are spells that the wizard knows that are gained from leveling as defined by their spellcasting ability, thus you would continue to gain these 2 spells at every "+1 level of spellcasting". Others hold that it does not, because it's in a spellbook and not in your mind.

They are classified as "spells known" in the wizard class entry so he would get them with that wording. However, most prestige classes say "spells per day" so for those the wizard would not get more spells in his spell book.

It is kind of dumb to define "known" as "in the book" but that's how the rules go and that's what you follow when reading other rules text. Yeah for example a sorcerer's spell known is far better than a wizard spell "known".

[The Kool]

They are classified as "spells known" in the wizard class entry so he would get them with that wording. However, most prestige classes say "spells per day" so for those the wizard would not get more spells in his spell book.

I initially thought that most classes include the clause " (and spells known, if applicable) " but it appears that even within the SRD this isn't true. It feels like RAI, though?

[Crichton]

I initially thought that most classes include the clause " (and spells known, if applicable) " but it appears that even within the SRD this isn't true. It feels like RAI, though?

It very very much feels like RAI, given that the chart (I know, I know, charts, text, blah blah) usually says something like '+1 level of existing spellcasting class'


Additional evidence for this is the wording in psionic classes, where it typically says 'the character gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if she had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.' They're quite explicit there, and one would think the intention for spellcasting classes is similar.

[ericgrau]

I initially thought that most classes include the clause " (and spells known, if applicable) " but it appears that even within the SRD this isn't true. It feels like RAI, though?

Yeah it is weird that sorcerers wouldn't get more spells known if we're too strict. So then the question is do wizards get more spells known too? In that case I suppose they do.

[Crichton]

It is kind of dumb to define "known" as "in the book" but that's how the rules go and that's what you follow when reading other rules text. Yeah for example a sorcerer's spell known is far better than a wizard spell "known".


They cast via different mechanics, sure, but the wizard is very much quite familiar with all the spells in his spellbook, given the nontrivial task of deciphering, understanding, and then scribing them into it.

The sorcerers whole schtick is that he only knows a few spells, but keeps them firmly in mind so he can cast them spontaneously. But that doesn't mean a wizard, who's familiar enough with them to be able to quickly refresh his memory on the ones he wants to use (from the ones he's learned/scribed) and then hold them in mind indefinitely(until cast) shouldn't also be considered to 'know' them.

[ericgrau]

I Googled it a bit and found it ruled both ways (but either way sorcerers still get more spells known). Sigh. Vague wording ftl.

The "known" thing was worse with 2e fluff where when a wizard casts a spell it is wiped completely from his mind until he prepares it again. It is likewise wiped when transferred from any source, and a wizard studies & trains to find tricks to work around this. Mainly by omitting a small portion at the end (which he has learned how to fill in) so it is only wiped when putting all the magic together and casting it. In the spell book they are incomplete.

[The Kool]

It's worth noting that it's possible to 'know' a spell but not have it in your book. In the case of replacing a lost spellbook, for example, you don't have to relearn a spell you have already learned, even if you're writing a new book from scratch. You just have to be copying it off a scroll or off of someone else's book, or have memorized it somewhere and be copying it down from memory (such as if you memorized it from another caster's book or from yours before it was destroyed).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) is actually worded differently from other classes that grant +1 level of spellcasting. It only says you gain spells per day and caster level as though you gained a level of your original class, but makes no mention of spells known. So a Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight wouldn't gain any new spells on level-ups, but could still add more spells to their spellbook, but a Sorcerer/Fighter/EK is stuck with only knowing lower-level Sorcerer spells.

For this reason, most Sorcerer-based gish builds avoid EK. It's easy enough to dip one level of Spellsword, take Abjurant Champion, and finish with Sacred Exorcist or Knight Phantom and still get 9th level spells by 20th level.