Upgrading my Dwarf Fighter

[HorstCroquette]

Greetings,
I have been reading the OOTS for about 5 years now but I had never played DnD before. So when a friend asked, if I wanted to be part of a 3.5 group I immediately said yes without knowing the exact rules or the system (apart from OOTS). I had played other RPGs before, but since the other members of the group had not, our friend created some characters for us after we told him what we would like to be. I just said I wanted to be a dwarf and since the rest of the group is a little more fragile (wizard, druid, concubine), I ended up being a fighter. We started as lvl 4 characters and so far we have been using the core rule book.
We are not a PG group and it's more about the roleplaying and character interaction than the actual fighting. That's why I've picked Two Weapon Fighting (2 Dwarfen War Axes :smallbiggrin: ), although I've read that it's worse than other feats and fighting styles.)

However, I've already realized that fighters are not the most powerful or versatile class. Especially when you only have the core book (I can't post links yet but there is a page that explains the problem for fighters and monks and suggests intense tripping and grappling :smallconfused:). But I don't want to resort to tripping or grappling which sounds like a lot of detailed rules and dice throwing. I have access to almost all 3.5 books and as long as it's in a book and it's not too crazy my GM will probably allow it. So before I look through all the books I wanted to ask some of you DnD Veterand if you have suggestions for multiclassing or feat selection that would improve my dwarf fighter.

Little more information about my character: In contrast to most dwarfs he is not lawful and likes to bend the harsh rules of the clans a bit. When he fell in love with a female dwarf a rival had him kicked out of the clan and branded (other dwarfs recognize him as being an outcast) for bending said rules. Currently he is an adventurer to collect gold and prestige to return to his clan.

Hope you can help me :)

Edit: I accidently referred to TWF as Two Handed Fighting and Dwarfen War Axes as Dwarfen Battle Axes.

[The Kool]

Alright, if you would like to continue with fighter, you can make use of that pile of feats. If your DM is cool with it, consider delving into the realm of Attack of Opportunity optimization. Feats like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit basically result in you attacking anything that breathes near you, even when it's not your turn. If you choose to abandon the Two-Weapon Fighting entirely, see if your DM will let you use the retraining rules found in... is it PHB2?

If you'd like to multiclass within the SRD, then an important question to ask is whether you want casting, or want to stay a martial character? If martial, rogue is an interesting choice for the sneak attack, but it's hardly optimal. Ranger won't give you any benefits. Barbarian gets some nice benefits in the early levels then you can move on. Thematically, the Rogue seems the most fitting of those three.

If you'd like to pick up casting, choose a full casting class and go just far enough to qualify for the PrC of your choice and don't look back.

If you'd like to qualify for a prestige class, I don't know enough fighter PrCs off the top of my head to give advice. I'll leave that to the others.

[Darrin]

That's why I've picked Two Handed fighting (2 dwarfen battle axes :smallbiggrin: ), although I've read that it's worse than other feats and fighting styles.)


I think you mean Two Weapon Fighting (TWF). I wrote an OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) for that, which is admittedly a lot of information to throw at a new player.



So before I look through all the books I wanted to ask some of you DnD Veterand if you have suggestions for multiclassing or feat selection that would improve my dwarf fighter.


First things first, there may be some things you can do in Core without making any significant changes to the character. If you're dual-wielding battle axes, then you can upgrade those to dwarven waraxes. The dwarven waraxe is normally an exotic weapon, but dwarves have weapon familiarity, so they can treat them as one-handed martial weapons. (You may be doing this already, if that's what you mean by "2 dwarfen battle axes".) Either way, since your offhand weapon is one-handed instead of light, you kinda get horked on your attack bonus: -4 attack penalty on your primary attacks and -4 penalty on your offhand attacks. We can fix this with a feat, which I'll address in a bit.

The other thing you can do is switch to a greatsword and put armor spikes on your armor (+50 GP). This allows you to continue using TWF, but you get x1.5 Strength bonus on your primary weapon, and since armor spikes are light weapons, your attack penalties are reduced to -2 penalty on your primary attacks and -2 penalty on your offhand attacks. This allows you to enjoy both the benefits of two-handed fighting (Power Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.) while still making use of TWF.

If you want to continue dual-wielding dwarven waraxes, which isn't quite as effective but looks way cooler, you can fix this somewhat by taking the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat from Complete Adventurer. This allows you to treat a one-handed weapon (such as a dwarven waraxe) as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your TWF penalties. Also, since your offhand weapon is still treated as a one-handed weapon for non-TWF purposes, you can still use Power Attack with it for bonus damage.

This arrangement isn't as ideal as the greatsword/armor spikes combo, as you don't get the same damage multipliers for your dual dwarven waraxes, and you still have a -2 attack penalty on top of whatever Power Attack penalty you've chosen, but it sounds like this group is not heavily optimized, so you should be fine if you're not dishing out 300+ damage every round.

Are you still level 4? What's your Dexterity score? (You may not be able to continue taking TWF feats if your Dex isn't high enough.)

If you really want to optimize dual dwarven war-axes, then ask your DM if you can rearrange your feats taken so far... you might consider something like:

1) Fighter 1. Feat: TWF. Bonus: Oversized TWF.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Weapon Focus Dwarven Waraxe.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Power Attack.
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Improved TWF. Bonus: Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior).
7) Fighter 7.
8) Fighter 8. Bonus: Weapon Specialization Dwarven Waraxe.
9) Fighter 9. Feat: Melee Weapon Mastery (PHBII).
10) Fighter 10. Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus.
11) Fighter 11.
12) Fighter 12. Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization. Bonus: Greater TWF.
etc.

As far as multi-classing goes... that depends on how you want to pick up "Pounce" (move and full-attack in the same turn). The easiest way is with a Barbarian 1 dip, trade Fast Movement for Spirit Lion Totem (from Complete Champion), and voila, you have Pounce. Having this ability is pretty critical to almost all melee-focused builds because it allows you to get all your attacks and deal your full melee damage every round, even if you aren't standing next to an opponent. It's particularly critical for TWF builds because any round when you can't full attack means all your TWF-related feats are being wasted.

There are other methods to get Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) (or something very similar to it), but Barbarian 1 is easiest, you aren't lawful, and your character is an outcast so... I'm not seeing much downside to it. Fighter is a favored class for dwarves, so Fighter X/Barbarian 1 or Fighter X/Barbarian 2 is a perfectly viable build strategy. Fighter 18/Barbarian 2 might be one of the better meatbag-focused builds in the game: plenty of feats for both two-handed Power Attack, TWF, and Melee Weapon Mastery, plus Pounce, Improved Trip (via Wolf Totem), and you might even be able to squeeze some Extra Rage in there.

Cloistered Cleric 1 to pick up the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) is the other dip you might consider, but it dings up your BAB a wee bit.

If your Dex isn't high enough to finish off the TWF line, you might want to consider multiclassing with Ranger, which allows you to pick up Improved TWF/Greater TWF without worrying about the Dex requirement.

As far as PrCs go, if you would rather stick to just Core, then a Fighter/Ranger heading into Horizon Tripper is one of the most effective melee-based PrCs in the Core rules.

Outside of Core, Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior) might be worth a look for Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting and Uncanny Blow, but you'll want to discuss how exactly Uncanny Blow works with your DM. The wording isn't entirely clear how it interacts with one-handed weapons and Power Attack. Stay away from Tempest. If you want something a little more interesting to do outside of "Hit Things", I tend to be fond of Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex).

[HorstCroquette]

I think you mean Two Weapon Fighting (TWF). I wrote an OffHandbook for that, which is admittedly a lot of information to throw at a new player.


You may be doing this already, if that's what you mean by "2 dwarfen battle axes"

Yes and yes! Thank you for pointing that out. :)


If you want to continue dual-wielding dwarven waraxes, which isn't quite as effective but looks way cooler

I really like wielding two axes so far. :smallbiggrin: But thanks for all the suggestions this is definitely helping a lot.

I'll have a look into the various feats and the multiclassing suggested :smallsmile:. We are still level 4 and I have 15 Dex but I think I need 17 for the next TWF feat (So far I took: TWF, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack and Cleave). Becoming a caster sounds intriguing but doesn't really fit into my character concept of a dwarf that is skeptical of wizards.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yes and yes! Thank you for pointing that out. :)



I really like wielding two axes so far. :smallbiggrin: But thanks for all the suggestions this is definitely helping a lot.

I'll have a look into the various feats and the multiclassing suggested :smallsmile:. We are still level 4 and I have 15 Dex but I think I need 17 for the next TWF feat (So far I took: TWF, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack and Cleave). Becoming a caster sounds intriguing but doesn't really fit into my character concept of a dwarf that is skeptical of wizards.

Are you able to make any changes to the existing feats? Power Attack and Cleave are nice, but you should be taking pretty monstrous penalties to your attacks since your off-hand weapon is a one-handed weapon. If you have the resource available to you, look at page 160 of the Player's Handbook. It has a table in there and the descriptive text that talks about Two Weapon Fighting. Looks like this:


Circumstances
Primary Hand Penalty
Off-hand Penalty


Normal Penalties (No TWF Feat/2 one-handed weapons)
-6
-10


Norm Penalties (No TWF Feat/Main Hand 1-handed/Off-hand Light)
-4
-8


Two Weapon Fighting Feat (2 one-handed weapons)
-4
-4


Two Weapon Fighting Feat (Main Hand 1-handed/Off-hand Light)
-2
-2



So, according to the table, with just Two Weapon Fighting you should be taking a -4/-4 penalty to your two attacks. Even with Weapon Specialization, this is very substantial, effectively negating your entire BAB. Trading Cleave for Oversized Two Weapon Fighting will let you, ideally, hit more often. If you're not missing too often, the I suppose this is less impactful, but you'll probably start encountering occasions where that -4 to hit with both attacks is going to be keeping you from making contact.

[Bronk]

However, I've already realized that fighters are not the most powerful or versatile class.

Dishearteningly true.



I have access to almost all 3.5 books and as long as it's in a book and it's not too crazy my GM will probably allow it.

If you have access to Tome of Battle, I think you'd do well switching to the Warblade class. You'd pick up a number of interesting abilities, and although you'd be picking up only the first level of the class at first, your fighter levels count towards your 'initiator level', which is the level at which you'd qualify for the maneuvers and stances the class grants you.

Edit: Specifically, for any given initiator class, your initiator level would be the number of levels of the initiator class plus half of all other classes. A Fighter 4/Warblade 1 would have an IL of 3, which would let you choose up to the second level of maneuvers if you wanted, instead of just first level maneuvers.

[The Kool]

If you were going to pick up any caster levels, the recommendation would be Cleric. But it's not needed. If you decide you don't have enough needed feats to fill out a continuous run of Fighter levels, a Barbarian dip is good, and consider transitioning into Warblade at higher levels (opens up some spellcasting-like complexity whilst still being a martial character). However, I recommend sticking with the Fighter, because feats are amazing. Strongly consider one level in Exotic Weapon Master to reduce your TWF penalties. Oversized TWF is a must. You want to put your level increased into Dex so that at level 12 you have 17 (enough for GTWF, just in time). Dex-boosting and Str-boosting items are incredibly helpful for your build. As mentioned, getting Pounce will help you greatly, but be careful if your group has low optimization levels as you'll just start stealing the spotlight.

Feats! Darrin has a good build, but I'm just going to list a handful and what they're good for.

TWF/ITWF/GTWF: The core of the build. More attacks = win.
Oversized TWF: Reduces penalties for your weapons, hit more often.
Power Attack: Good for increased damage, use when you aren't having trouble hitting things.
Shock Trooper: Good for when you have trouble hitting things but still want to hit hard. Beware, as you become the punching bag.
Weapon Focus/Specialization: Better to-hit and damage, not by much, but you have a lot of attacks.
Cleave: Worthwhile if you deal a lot of damage per hit. Don't bother with Great Cleave, you'll rarely if ever get to use it and you've got enough attacks anyway.
Improved Critical: Crit more often, deal more damage, cleave more often. Not bad on axes.

Combat Reflexes: High Dex means more AoOs.
Karmic Strike: Requires two feats you wouldn't be looking at otherwise, but every person who lands a melee attack on you provokes an AoO.
Robilar's Gambit: Needs a high BAB (+12), but everyone who swings at you provokes an AoO.
Hold the Line: AoO against anyone who charges at you, lands before they swing.
Defensive Sweep: AoO against anyone who stands still next to you. Sensing a theme?
Double Hit: Your AoOs let you swing with both weapons
Deft Opportunist: bonus to hit on AoOs
Close-Quarters fighting: Gives you a better fighting chance if someone decides to grapple you. Poor in comparison, but worth mentioning.

[The Kool]

your fighter levels count towards your 'initiator level', which is the level at which you'd qualify for the maneuvers and stances the class grants you.

Sort of true. Initiator Level is the ToB equivalent of Caster Level, so remember that. Any levels at all in a non-ToB class will improve your Initiator Level by 1/2. Similarly but in the other direction, Warblade levels count as Fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for things like feats (but you subtract 2 from your warblade level when calculating this).

[Eldariel]

Honestly, if Tome of Battle is on the table, just go straight into Warblade and never look back. Warblade is the warrior-in-a-can that is always solid and requires little to no optimisation to be strong. Tiger Claw goes perfectly with TWF and so on. It just does everything you want up to the point that it takes little effort to make it good and there are no real bad options.


If Tome of Battle is not on the table, one thing that suits your parameters pretty well is taking one level of Barbarian (gives you Pounce [Complete Champion] and Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), which you can pick Extra Rage for later - since you're not Lawful, it all blends in just fine and this can work as "learning to utilise your inner chaos" or whatever) and then entering Dervish [Complete Warrior]. Dervish is not the strongest of classes but it's decent and most importantly, gives you a set of simple, numeric bonuses and goes well with TWF (and has a lot of requirements that match with what you have). Toss on top of that Melee Weapon Mastery [PHBII], which you already probably qualify for, and you're good. You could pick up Oversized TWF too, but honestly, I think with the bonuses you're getting from everywhere (Dervish gives you +1 every two levels, Melee Weapon Mastery is +2, etc.) you might not even need it. Though if you eventually do end up picking up Power Attack (you can make use of it even as a TWFer if you have enough bonuses), getting every point of attack bonus helps.

Another interesting class is Exotic Weapon Master, which has among others offers Trip Attack (goes great with Combat Expertise/Improved Trip and helps you make up for lacking attack bonus). The others aren't that interesting to you though if you ever chose to wield the Waraxe two-handed, Uncanny Blow is really nice. The nice thing about the class though is that it's short and really easy to dip for just the thing you want (in this case, definitely the Trip Attack).

[HorstCroquette]

Thanks again everybody for helping me :smallsmile:

I'm not really looking for a fully optimized build, where I plan every feat and attribute increase up to lvl 20. Don't get me wrong...From time to time I love doing these kinds of things, where I crunch the numbers and try to find the perfect build to maximize my asskicking power. But that's only fun when the rest of the group is doing the same.
I don't want to better than the rest of my group I'm really just looking to get a litte more versatility in my fighter to give me more options than "I hit things". And one brief look into the Warblade class...
...(opens up some spellcasting-like complexity whilst still being a martial character)...
tells me that I have found what I was searching :smallamused:

I have access to ToB and only have to figure out how the stances and maneuvers are working in detail (and convince my GM :D..but I think he would be finde with it). I'll also try to swap cleave for Oversized TWF because that's really just a no-brainer.

[The Kool]

Alright, if you'd like to go down the Warblade path, there are two main questions to answer: Barbarian dip on the way? and how much Fighter?

Dipping one level into Barbarian... This opens up Pounce with the alternate class feature, but it might be a bit too strong for your table if you're starting to optimize and they aren't. Or it might be just the thing for you to catch up. Consult your DM as to whether they're even comfortable with it, some aren't. For that matter, you might not be. I don't know you or your DM or your table, so that's for you to figure out.

How many Fighter levels before you start down the Warblade path? Well, let's see. If your group hasn't been going long, and you just feel like Warblade is an all-around better fit for you, your DM might let you swap levels over to be purely Warblade. You might want those four Fighter levels for the feats though, and in fact if you want to do something that takes a lot of feats you may want more. Judging by where your character is now, I'd suggest starting down the Warblade path right away and leaving your Fighter levels in place, but keep an eye on Fighter. If you look ahead and feel that you need an extra feat to make something work, you may want to slip back in two levels of Fighter. This is easily something that can be figured out as you go, you don't need to look more than 2-3 levels ahead.

EDIT: If you'd like, I can summarize how stances and maneuvers work if the book is a bit hard to sift through. I can't give much detail on the different disciplines as I'm not that familiar with them though.

[Eldariel]

Thanks again everybody for helping me :smallsmile:

I'm not really looking for a fully optimized build, where I plan every feat and attribute increase up to lvl 20. Don't get me wrong...From time to time I love doing these kinds of things, where I crunch the numbers and try to find the perfect build to maximize my asskicking power. But that's only fun when the rest of the group is doing the same.
I don't want to better than the rest of my group I'm really just looking to get a litte more versatility in my fighter to give me more options than "I hit things". And one brief look into the Warblade class...
tells me that I have found what I was searching :smallamused:

I have access to ToB and only have to figure out how the stances and maneuvers are working in detail (and convince my GM :D..but I think he would be finde with it). I'll also try to swap cleave for Oversized TWF because that's really just a no-brainer.

If you have Weapon Specialisation already, I recommend also picking up Melee Weapon Mastery [PHBII]. Makes a world of difference in TWF and Warblade qualifies as a Fighter for those feats (not that it matters, all you need is Weapon Specialisation to get it). It requires you get +8 BAB so realistically you can't pick it up before 9.

Tome of Battle also offers feats "Ironheart Aura" and "Stormguard Warrior", the latter of which is absolutely beautiful on a TWF character. And Punishing Stance is superb. TWF loves anything that adds damage to each attack, after all. Other than that, look into Tiger Claw. It's mostly built around two-weapon fighting.

Of stances and maneuvers:
- Takes one swift action to initiate or switch stance. Only one stance at a time. You can keep one stance active indefinitely (even out of combat).
- Maneuvers are readied. You can ready every maneuver you know once.
- Warblade-specific: Once used, you need to use a swift action after an attack (or a standard action without an attack) on a turn where you don't use a maneuver to re-ready all your used maneuvers. Then you can use them again.

Of the other schools:
- Diamond Mind has a lot of great defensive and utility abilities, like the ability to make a Concentration-checks instead of saves (that don't always fail on 1), the ability to move quickly and even to boost your Initiative. It's a great utility school regardless of what you focus on offensively.
- Iron Heart has some Conan-the-Barbarianesque stuff (Iron Heart Surge and Iron Heart Endurance stand out, and Wall of Blades is always good). Other than that, it's mostly based around using a single weapon for strikes but do pick up the utility.
- Stone Dragon is mostly about strikes that give you Damage Reduction or allow overcoming Damage Reduction and Hardness. Since they're strikes, they aren't that interesting to you otherwise but it's always worth it to know one Mountain Hammer to be able to hack through solid stone, adamantine or whatever when need be. There's also a nice utility stance on stance level 3, Roots of the Mountain, that allows you to stand up to monsters trying to eat you or whatever.
- White Raven is about boosting allies and charging. It's always also useful to have, particularly the 3rd level White Raven Tactics. Allows you improve your allies' ability to contribute by taking extra actions.

[Mordaedil]

Honestly, I think oversized two-weapon fighting feat will be all you really need to have fun with the game as you are, but I will admit Shock Trooper is really tempting to grab too.

Also, grab two points of dexterity for improved two-weapon fighting and consider putting the rest in strength instead. Two off-hand attacks might be good enough for you considering your character and getting to 19 dex wouldn't be available until level 16, and you might want to grab something besides a third attack that is unlikely to hit. As tempting as it is.

[Arkain]

You could even skip Improved TWF and the dexterity increase if you get Gloves of the Balanced Hands instead. The third attack may not be worth it anyhow, as mentioned and this would save another feat for more interesting things.

[RNightstalker]

Dervish is great as it gives you Dervish Dance which basically lets you take a bunch of 5ft. steps in between individual attacks so you can spread them out and won't need to worry about pounce or travel devotion (though you will need tumble ranks to avoid AOO's), and eventually leads to A Thousand Cuts, which let's you double the number of attacks you have in a round 1/day.

There's also the Tempest(CA 81-82) that has some cool class abilities, like giving unnamed AC bonus when fighting with two weapons, Two Weapon Versatility which allows you to apply some standard feats you have to any weapon you wield as long as you're wielding two weapons, and also Ambidexterity which will eliminate your TWF penalties if you have the aforementioned Oversized TWF (CA 111).