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MisterSaturnine
2007-09-30, 05:41 PM
I just got the ToB yesterday, and after reading through it am confused about a couple things.

The first is about Stances. Let's say I'm making a 1st level Swordsage--even though I only get one Stance at first level according to the table, does this count as one of the 6 Maneuvers I'm allowed to take? Can I take other Stances as my maneuvers, which would make me have, say, 2 stances at 1st level?

My other question is about manuever level--I'm assuming you can use maneuvers that have a level equal to half your own, rounded up. Also, prerequisites confuse me--do I need to have a 1st level Shadow Hand maneuver to take a 2nd level Shadow Hand maneuver? Do I need a 5th level Setting Sun maneuver to take a 6th level Setting Sun maneuver?

My brain hurts.

brian c
2007-09-30, 06:01 PM
If your class sayd you get 4 maneuvers and one stance, then you get 5 things total: 4 maneuvers (which are not stances, could be strikes, counters etc) and then one stance.


As for prerequisites, they are explicitly listed. Some maneuvers and stances have prereqs, others do not.

MisterSaturnine
2007-09-30, 06:09 PM
Alright, thanks. That's interesting though--one could take a 2nd level maneuver from, say, the Diamond Mind discipline, without having a 1st level Diamond Mind maneuver.

Huh. Thanks for the help, you cleared everything up for me that I needed to know. :smallsmile:

Lemur
2007-09-30, 06:38 PM
Although you didn't explicitly ask about this, stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of prerequisites. So if you had a stance and a maneuver in say, Tiger Claw, you meet the prerequisite for a maneuver (or stance) that requires you to have two Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Karsh
2007-09-30, 09:06 PM
Furthermore, your initiator level must be 2x-1 for learning a maneuver of a specific level x. (I.E. 1st level maneuvers at 1st, 2nd at 3rd level, 3rd at 5th, so on and so forth).

Douglas
2007-09-30, 11:06 PM
Alright, thanks. That's interesting though--one could take a 2nd level maneuver from, say, the Diamond Mind discipline, without having a 1st level Diamond Mind maneuver.
Yes. All that matters is the prerequisite line for the maneuver. In fact, it is possible to take Mountain Tombstone Strike, the 9th level maneuver for Stone Dragon, without taking any other Stone Dragon maneuvers at all of any level because it has no prerequisites. For another example, Time Stands Still requires four Diamond Mind maneuvers. Four level 1 maneuvers would qualify just as well as four level 8 maneuvers, all that matters is that you know at least four Diamond Mind maneuvers (including your stances) and that your Initiator Level is at least 17.

brian c
2007-10-01, 12:57 AM
One last (maybe) thing to mention: Prereqs only matter for when you choose the maneuver. Remember that all martial adept classes get the option to switch out maneuvers at even numbered levels? Let's say you choose a maneuver that has a prereq of 1 Diamond Mind maneuver, and you only have 1. That's fine, but even if you switch out that other DM maneuver, you may still use the higher level one that had the prereq. Another funny thing is that you can use Mountain Tombstone Strike as your first Stone Dragon maneuver to qualify to take other, lower level, Stone Dragon maneuvers.

Darrin
2007-10-01, 07:44 AM
Remember that all martial adept classes get the option to switch out maneuvers at even numbered levels?

I believe only Warblade is allowed to switch out maneuvers.

AslanCross
2007-10-01, 08:56 AM
I believe only Warblade is allowed to switch out maneuvers.

Nope, all of them do.

Douglas
2007-10-01, 12:20 PM
All the base classes, anyway. None of the PrCs get to swap anything out.

Draz74
2007-10-01, 12:56 PM
PrCs that include maneuver progression, also include the option to switch out known maneuvers as part of that progression.

brian c
2007-10-01, 01:18 PM
PrCs that include maneuver progression, also include the option to switch out known maneuvers as part of that progression.

Actually, no. All such PrCs are in ToB, and I just checked through. None of them offer maneuver switching.

Draz74
2007-10-01, 01:22 PM
Actually, no. All such PrCs are in ToB, and I just checked through. None of them offer maneuver switching.

Judging by the online description (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) of the Warblade, switching out maneuvers isn't a separate class feature. It's just a built-in part of the "Maneuvers" class feature. Therefore any PrC that progresses your "Maneuvers" class feature will allow switching as well.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-01, 01:23 PM
Judging by the online description (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) of the Warblade, switching out maneuvers isn't a separate class feature. It's just a built-in part of the "Maneuvers" class feature. Therefore any PrC that progresses your "Maneuvers" class feature will allow switching as well.

Except that the PrCs have their own "Maneuvers" class feature that does not contain the "swapping" text.

brian c
2007-10-01, 01:31 PM
Except that the PrCs have their own "Maneuvers" class feature that does not contain the "swapping" text.

Precisely. Thank you fax