Small monk buff I've been considering

[stoutstien]

I was thinking of allowing step of the wind to become ki free at lv 9 and then patient defense at lv 15.
I know it is hardly a huge boost but I think it would help if the monk get stuck a long time between rests.

[Citan]

I was thinking of allowing step of the wind to become ki free at lv 9 and then patient defense at lv 15.
I know it is hardly a huge boost but I think it would help if the monk get stuck a long time between rests.
Hi!

I disagree on the opinion "it is hardly a huge boost". At least for Patient Defense.
With that said, it's not really overpowered either.

It simply means that you help Monk players to keep in check during long days. But it also means that they get a big boost in power whenever they have a regular day with short rests, in only because they have many more ki points available on archetype abilities or Stunning Strike attempts.

Another way to go which would be imo easier to "manage" balance-wise would be to give something similar in spirit to Warlock's 20th level: spend ten minutes to restore WIS-mod Ki points.
Give this feature one use at level 9, another at level 15.

Benefits of this approach:
- You still get some kind of resource management (10mn is manageable but may ask a bit of effort in some situations).
- Since it's only a fixed number of times, the power increase is predictible.
Drawback (somewhat, although I'd actually say it's a plus at least for player ^^)
- Player could use that to refresh an amount of KI he'll use on Stunning Strike instead. In other words, if you have a player that never uses Step of the Wind or Patient Defense and simply spams offensive abilities, you are giving him a free boost for free.

-> Your initial idea has the merit of inciting more frequent uses of those specific abilities. If that was the intent behind, then go for it and forget about my suggestion.
If that was not... I'm calling up forum's opinion on my suggestion. :=)

[Yunru]

I mean, both only cost 2 levels of Rogue, so I don't see why it would be that overpowered.
...
And now I'm picturing features that lower your maximum Ki for free use of said feature. Or at least Ki Investitures.

[JackPhoenix]

I mean, both only cost 2 levels of Rogue, so I don't see why it would be that overpowered.
...
And now I'm picturing features that lower your maximum Ki for free use of said feature. Or at least Ki Investitures.

Dodge is not valid option for Cunning Action for a reason.

[Citan]

Dodge is not valid option for Cunning Action for a reason.
This.

That's why I put Patient Defense aside too.
Patient Defense is already a very strong feature as is.

Sure, pushing it "for free" at 15th level is within reasonable, since at a time where everyone starts having enough options in resilience. But it's still a very big boost, that stays relevant (or even better) at higher levels.
Let's recall that Dodge is much, MUCH better than Shield overall later.
At low levels, Shield is by far better since it equally affects all attacks for a round, and the flat +5 really makes a difference when opponents have less than +7 or +8. It doesn't do anything for criticals though, but those are not that dangerous yet.

At higher levels? Enemies start having +11 or +12 to hit so unless Shield is applied on already high AC (21+) the number of hits turned into misses are (obviously) comparatively lesser than before. So far, no real difference with Dodge. More importantly though, enemies all have multiattacks, and start dealing impressive damage either through those chained attacks or through one powerful hit. In those cases, crits can quickly add up damage to a dangerous level.
Dodge overall negates that.
It also adds another protection by disabling any advantage enemy may have against Monk (like invisible enemy, character shoved/paralyzed, etc).
And it also provides advantage on Dex saving throws which is not a small deal.

On top of that, Monk at higher level is already in top three of sturdiest characters: Evasion + high DEX + high WIS + all proficiencies makes him already very hard to get on AOE and control spells. IF, in addition to that, you make his effective AC higher than a tank for no resource cost... Yeah, it's a big buff.

Comparatively to that, Step of the Wind for free is slightly losing utility, considering Monk's speed has steadily increased along with his defense, so uses for Disengage/Dash are a tad bit more situational.

I mean, both only cost 2 levels of Rogue, so I don't see why it would be that overpowered.
...
And now I'm picturing features that lower your maximum Ki for free use of said feature. Or at least Ki Investitures.
That's an interesting lead indeed. :)
Could be fluffed without too much trouble though.

[stoutstien]

So step to the wind at 9 is fine but no patient defense. How bout at 20. Bout anything is better than the cap stone they have now

[Citan]

So step to the wind at 9 is fine but no patient defense. How bout at 20. Bout anything is better than the cap stone they have now
Please note that while I think it's a strong buff, it's not broken either. So feel free to include it if you want, as long as you are clear on implication with players and yourself (only for that character? For every game now and hereafter?)

Alternatively, how about instead giving the "Defensive Duelist" feat for free at 15th level, with houserule works unarmed? It uses up reaction for one attack, which is "just good enough", but can be stacked with regular use of Dodge.

Otherwise, at level 20, sure, go wild! There are so many potentially game-breaking things at that level already that a free Dodge for a Monk won't shock anyone when at that level others get unlimited THP, have been playing with free Shield since a while or get "all damage resistance + HP regen" (Paladin).

IMO, level 20 is the "balance is now secondary" decisive step. Depending on DM/campaign/characters of course, but theorically, there is just too much discrepancy in latent power already to be overly concerned of impact of a martial feature on a martial character. XD

[stoutstien]

Please note that while I think it's a strong buff, it's not broken either. So feel free to include it if you want, as long as you are clear on implication with players and yourself (only for that character? For every game now and hereafter?)

Alternatively, how about instead giving the "Defensive Duelist" feat for free at 15th level, with houserule works unarmed? It uses up reaction for one attack, which is "just good enough", but can be stacked with regular use of Dodge.

Otherwise, at level 20, sure, go wild! There are so many potentially game-breaking things at that level already that a free Dodge for a Monk won't shock anyone when at that level others get unlimited THP, have been playing with free Shield since a while or get "all damage resistance + HP regen" (Paladin).

IMO, level 20 is the "balance is now secondary" decisive step. Depending on DM/campaign/characters of course, but theorically, there is just too much discrepancy in latent power already to be overly concerned of impact of a martial feature on a martial character. XD
I personally don't think there a lot for monk from lv 15-18. Sure they get a subclass feature but out side of quivering palm I don't every see someone excited about them. Well I could see kensei being a solid buff to normalize damage but it's also doesn't add any new options.

I do like the idea of reducing total ki to enter a stance so they can use step or patient for free. Maybe 3 for step and 5 for patient would be a good starting point

[JNAProductions]

Why do you feel the need to buff the Monk?

[Man_Over_Game]

Why do you feel the need to buff the Monk?

Same question here. I never felt that the Monk ever needed more Ki points. I've always felt that what the Monk lacks were Short Rests.

Take the Battlemaster as an example, the closest the Battlemaster can get is reducing an incoming attack's damage by their Dex + Superiority Die. The Battlemaster can do that about 3-4 times. A Monk can cause attacks against him to have Disadvantage for the entire round, a round per level.

[Citan]

I personally don't think there a lot for monk from lv 15-18. Sure they get a subclass feature but out side of quivering palm I don't every see someone excited about them. Well I could see kensei being a solid buff to normalize damage but it's also doesn't add any new options.

I do like the idea of reducing total ki to enter a stance so they can use step or patient for free. Maybe 3 for step and 5 for patient would be a good starting point
I guess it's all about taste here: I'd wholeheartedly agree in the case of Sun Soul or Long Death, but Shadow's and Kensei's 17th while bland are very solid benefit for them. Drunken is a bit awkward and kinda too late to really shine but situationally good though.

And 4e's 17th, while obviously not as awesome as Quivering Palm (which, I hope we can agree, is between the top 5 and top 10 of all features of all classes depending on spells included or not), gives access to great spells: Cone of Cold is situational but can be a nice change from Fireball, more importantly Wall of Stone (especially) and Wall of Fire can be put to many different good uses. After all, reducing/blocking movement or sight stays relevant throughout levels, even if of course higher levels means higher rate of facing creatures that have counters for those.

And having the Monk provide those tactics means allied casters (if any) can instead focus on their high-level spells.
(Preventive debunk: to those who would say "hey, it's useless, Wizard have been playing with those since 10 levels ago" I'd answer: "then, you obviously consider Haste or Greater Invisibility as completely useless for EK and AT, right?" Because that's the same kind of non-sense)

[Yunru]

(Preventive debunk: to those who would say "hey, it's useless, Wizard have been playing with those since 10 levels ago" I'd answer: "then, you obviously consider Haste or Greater Invisibility as completely useless for EK and AT, right?" Because that's the same kind of non-sense)
Haste and Greater Invisibility scale with the target's combat potential, which keeps par with monster HP. Damage spells like the 4e Monk gets don't. Thus Haste and Greater Invisibilty will always be viable, but even Fireball quickly becomes a waste.

[Dalebert]

Free patient defense would actually be a decent but not broken capstone for monks. I still don't see people being really reluctant to avoid dipping for it though.

[stoutstien]

@ all asking why.
I think monks damage output is adequate and any direct increase in ki would be a bad idea at any point.

But comparing cunning actions dash/disengage/hide VS steps dash/disengage with a 2x jump it seems strange one is at-will and the other eats into the sole resource that basically fuels the class.

the more I think about it I just might make step to the wind completely Ki free from level 2.

[JNAProductions]

@ all asking why.
I think monks damage output is adequate and any direct increase in ki would be a bad idea at any point.

But comparing cunning actions dash/disengage/hide VS steps dash/disengage with a 2x jump it seems strange one is at-will and the other eats into the sole resource that basically fuels the class.

the more I think about it I just might make step to the wind completely Ki free from level 2.

The issue is not Dash or Disengage being free. The issue is free Dodge.

[Man_Over_Game]

The issue is not Dash or Disengage being free. The issue is free Dodge.

Step of the Wind doesn't have anything to do with the Dodge action.

Now, Step of the Wind DOES increase jump distance, which could be a major benefit. Additionally, Rogue already gains a free Bonus Action Dash/Disengage, which normally would have some value to monks to gain a Ki-less version. Doing this will basically decide that Monks shouldn't multiclass with Rogues, but other than that, I don't really see too many reasons why not.

[Citan]

Haste and Greater Invisibility scale with the target's combat potential, which keeps par with monster HP. Damage spells like the 4e Monk gets don't. Thus Haste and Greater Invisibilty will always be viable, but even Fireball quickly becomes a waste.
See? That's exactly what I was saying.
Fireball is something a Monk can chain up without batting an eye, so he can quickly take care of groups of small fry without needing allied caster to spend a precious action best spent on trying to debuff the one big guy.

Fireball also scales with the way of targeting, with Monk getting higher speed and high jump (possibly even Fly) to get the best angle. It's also a spell Monk can use mostly safely on himself as a way to draw and clear groups of enemies (or weaken them enough for a finisher from a friendly caster which means that caster just needs another Fireball or similar instead of using a 5th or 6th level spell on something bigger): with high DEX, Evasion and ability to reroll on level 14, you can smile in the face of the fire.

More importantly, you are taking the one "damage only" spell to try and say "hey it's useless". Reminder: I was quoting Wall spells as the prime ones.

As one of numerous good tactics, Wall of Stone is a no-save way to completely trap an opponent, that works equally well on a Kobold as on as, say, a Marilith (Large creature): cast a Wall of Stone around it and above it to trap it: now you forced it to waste a whole turn (or possibly more) just trying to destroy one section of the wall, you prevented any teleportation (or, if you're afraid of the DEX save, just leave an opening above: if it wants to teleport it will still have used action on it and face potential readied arrows.

It can also be a way to ensure you face someone in one-on-one fight: except that you, as a Monk, can very simply and very quickly run off and above wall should things turn dire.
Or it could be used as a prison into which dropping enemies.

If you want "scaling example", it can be quickly used to setup covers for your archer pals, or bridging a chasm or a wall to allow melee friends to reach above enemies.

Fly is another great example if you want "something that scales with target's combat potential": you boost even more Monk's speed, allowing him to reach most opponents without need for Dash, so he can either attempt full Stunning Strike nova or use bonus action to Dash back to safety, or maybe grappling and dragging back your target with you. And Monk gets higher damage die and higher ki pool as he levels.

People should just stop trying to get babyfed with spells and features and instead think about how any such complement and/or enhance their options. :)

[stoutstien]

See? That's exactly what I was saying.
Fireball is something a Monk can chain up without batting an eye, so he can quickly take care of groups of small fry without needing allied caster to spend a precious action best spent on trying to debuff the one big guy.

Fireball also scales with the way of targeting, with Monk getting higher speed and high jump (possibly even Fly) to get the best angle. It's also a spell Monk can use mostly safely on himself as a way to draw and clear groups of enemies (or weaken them enough for a finisher from a friendly caster which means that caster just needs another Fireball or similar instead of using a 5th or 6th level spell on something bigger): with high DEX, Evasion and ability to reroll on level 14, you can smile in the face of the fire.

More importantly, you are taking the one "damage only" spell to try and say "hey it's useless". Reminder: I was quoting Wall spells as the prime ones.

As one of numerous good tactics, Wall of Stone is a no-save way to completely trap an opponent, that works equally well on a Kobold as on as, say, a Marilith (Large creature): cast a Wall of Stone around it and above it to trap it: now you forced it to waste a whole turn (or possibly more) just trying to destroy one section of the wall, you prevented any teleportation (or, if you're afraid of the DEX save, just leave an opening above: if it wants to teleport it will still have used action on it and face potential readied arrows.

It can also be a way to ensure you face someone in one-on-one fight: except that you, as a Monk, can very simply and very quickly run off and above wall should things turn dire.
Or it could be used as a prison into which dropping enemies.

If you want "scaling example", it can be quickly used to setup covers for your archer pals, or bridging a chasm or a wall to allow melee friends to reach above enemies.

Fly is another great example if you want "something that scales with target's combat potential": you boost even more Monk's speed, allowing him to reach most opponents without need for Dash, so he can either attempt full Stunning Strike nova or use bonus action to Dash back to safety, or maybe grappling and dragging back your target with you. And Monk gets higher damage die and higher ki pool as he levels.

People should just stop trying to get babyfed with spells and features and instead think about how any such complement and/or enhance their options. :)

This maybe the first time I've ever seen anybody defend for element monks as being powerful lol. I guess I should say sustainable power. If they could use martial arts ba unarmed strike after dropping a fireball I could see it but as written then are kinda meh.
*You bring up wave of rolling earth and breath of winter which only come online at 17+.

SS is the monks focus imo and allowing free step to wind would free up more uses per day by reducing the ability for the monk to spam it with flurry of blows. so basically they'll get more chances per day but less chances per turn. In exchange they have free resource higher mobility which I think that should have been the monks niche to begin with and if we allowed free patient defense at lv 15 they can take up the mantle as the evasion tank earlier.

[Citan]

This maybe the first time I've ever seen anybody defend for element monks as being powerful lol. I guess I should say sustainable power. If they could use martial arts ba unarmed strike after dropping a fireball I could see it but as written then are kinda meh.
*You bring up wave of rolling earth and breath of winter which only come online at 17+.

SS is the monks focus imo and allowing free step to wind would free up more uses per day by reducing the ability for the monk to spam it with flurry of blows. so basically they'll get more chances per day but less chances per turn. In exchange they have free resource higher mobility which I think that should have been the monks niche to begin with and if we allowed free patient defense at lv 15 they can take up the mantle as the evasion tank earlier.
Well, you brought the discussion when saying that in your view there was not much at level 17. That's why I focused on that part.

But self-Fly as a 11th level feature is vastly underrated for a Monk. It's much, much better than it seems at first. You just need to try and wrap your head around every new thing you can try (and succeed).

Back to your topic, it seems your goal is indeed to try and motivate players to use things other than Flurry of Blows on bonus action instead of just spamming punches.
In that regard, your initial idea is certainly the best. So I'd say go for it. :)

Same for Patient Defense, it seems you have a specific goal behind, and your idea certainly backs it up. As long as you are aware of the (potential) power boost will be fine.
Tell us how it fared for your players after a few sessions if possible it's always interesting to get feedback on houserules.

: fireball is an AOE that can, on good days, affect something like 6+ creatures with a guaranteed minimum average of 14, a regular average of 28, and above 35 on good rolls. *Per* creature. At pretty long range. For a mere 4 ki points and an action.
Worst case, you get only 3 creatures into it (because if only 2 creatures it's most probably a waste, you'd better just focus on one and disregard the other whatever circumstances are, unless very very niche case like "I'm sure I can kill both with that and they are too distant from one another" or something like that).
So, on one turn, you spend 4 Ki to get a guaranteed total average damage of 42 and possibly over 60.

Using instead your Attack and Flurry of Blow, for 4 attacks for a single Ki point, your damage range from minimum 0 (all misses, although very improbable normally) to average of (1d8+4)*4 (lvl 11, even bump of WIS and DEX) = 32, and with some luck over 40: using action and bonus action.
In other words, you get (nearly) the same average except you focused all resources on one creature, whereas the Fireball damage was *per* creature.
In other words, when you want an optimal use of resources (and considering equivalent chances of succeeding both), Fireball is defendable as a better choice if you can include 3 creatures, and is plain better from 4 onwards.
For roughly the same average damage, putting aside different AC/DEX (or resistances), 4 creature, 4 Ki, or one creature, one ki. Funny how there is a connection no? :)

Let's now pick a more classic situation: you want to stun. At level 11, you start facing creatures with +3 in CON regularly, with some nasty sporting a +7 or more but let's put that aside and keep the +3. AC ranges from 15 to 18, let's say 16.
Same Monk trying to stunlock as many creatures as possible starts with first: with a +3, against a 16 DC, creature has only 40% chance to make the save. Let's be pessimist and say you only got it on second try. On to-hit, that Monk has +8 to hit a 16, so he has 65% chance of success (nearly 1/3 chance to miss). Let's be optimistic and say he succeds on the first two (Extra Attack). Now for those attacks on Flurry he has a near 90% chance to hit, so let's be confident he succeeds. Let's go on extra length and suppose he got a critical on one of the two.
Total ki cost: 2 (Stun attempts) + 1 (Flurry) = 3.
Total damage: (1d8+4*2) + 1d8+4 + 2d8+4 = average 22.5+16 = 38.5

So, for a situation that I daresay is realistic in how it represents a common streak of events (and still a tad biaised favorably: with a bit of sad luck you could spend 4 Ki to just succeed on last attempt) you used your whole turn to deal just under 40 damage to one enemy.
Obviously, the winning point here is not that damage really: it's the big dent in action economy and help you give to close-by friends to hit.

As far as damage goes? This was mostly a waste of resources.

In other words...
- Comparing uses of Stunning Strike to Fireball is completely meaningless. It's like comparing Dash and Hide on Rogue's Cunning Action: they simply don't fill the same role.
- Saying that Fireball is useless on Monk at lvl 11 because casters get it at 5th level (which I often read) is simply stupid: Wizards can get Wish or Meteor Swarm, yet people enjoy very much playing Fighters, Paladins or Barbarians and those are considered very strong classes at high level.

There is no interest in comparing value of a feature that can be obtained in different ways and at different levels, because they don't apply on the same chassis, in the same context.
In a context of a Monk, the areas people usually consider a weakness are:
- burst damage :only with a luck streak can Monk expect to be as good as a dedicated Fighter or Barbarian. It's completely natural too, imo, but many people want the cake, the cherry, and eat both yet have them again the next day).
- crowd management: usually the only real solution for a Monk is simply to run away with Disengage/Dash/Dodge, hopefully after having succeeded in killing/disabling one enemy.
Fireball, while doing nothing relevant as far as single-target options go, is a nice tool fitting both areas above when Monk have to deal with its somewhat natural enemy: groups.
Or, to illustrate with (sadly often) actual use-cases from my games: finishing off one enemy that was lucky enough to avoid expected death from Monk's ally (back luck on attack or damage roll, unpredicted use of feature) while still dealing the expected amount of hurt on his "own" target.

And absolutely nobody in other archetypes has something even close to that, except Sun Soul: but it's half-radius and no damage on save - on the bright side (if I may dare this pun) it's radiant instead of fire -.

To push the thinking...
Party-wide, even if you had a caster with similar spell in party, it's a boon to have it cast by a Monk (unless of course caster has better Initiative rank and that upcoming Fireball has a chance to kill before enemy acts): you're consuming 1/3 or a short-rest resource, instead of 1/4 of a long-rest resource.
Because, sure, a caster could just cast Fireball and not care that much about slot consumption: but it means less slots availables for the day on a Haste / Slow / Hypnotic Pattern / Spirit Guardians / Conjure Animals / etc.
Because, sure, a caster could also upcast Fireball as needed once 3rd slots are depleted: but it's a damn shame to be obligated to do that just because you need damage right now and use a slot that could have been used instead on a Banishment/Polymorph/GreaterINvisibility/etc.

Besides the resource management question, there is also the opportunity cost question: if party needs to harm several creatures at once (typically: mobs guarding a boss), and caster and Monk would both act before enemy, you have several options to consider...
- If mobs are order 1 priority and caster comes first, worst case you can stack two Fireball on that group of enemies: if they don't die, they'll be easy prey for friends to finish off.
- If mobs are order 1 and Monk comes first, best case: caster can assess the situation after Monk's fireball and adapt: maybe it's better to just use a single-target spell to finish off those. Maybe a Lightning Chain would be better so he can kill a few mobs yet deal significant damage to the boss. Maybe he can completely forget about the mob and try a debuff on the bad guy.
- If mobs are order 2, then caster can delegate mob cleaning on that turn to Monk and focus solely on boss (which sadly often have pretty good Constitution save bonuses, while any decent caster will have an array of WIS/CHA/INT saves to target).

Basically, by duplicating options yet making them rely on different resources, you maximize the chance of making the optimum use of resources for maximum effect.
Besides, in actual life, not every party has a caster, lester a Wizard/Sorcerer (or a Bard using Magic Secrets on Fireball).

[LordNibbler]

This would be a good modification for a party that gets few short rests. In games where there’s only one or two encounters, characters with long rest resources outshine those with short rest resources. This would be a good way to balance it.

[stoutstien]

I have 2 players with monks I hope I can persuade them not to multi-class them long enough to see this in action.

[Citan]

I have 2 players with monks I hope I can persuade them not to multi-class them long enough to see this in action.
Quick note I forgot in previous post: if those seem to get a tad frustrated with resource management because not enough short rest, is the reason of that something akin to the campaign? To the lack of "short-rest enablers" in party? Or simple lack of organization?

Because if you're lenient enough to go on a limb and change a class's mechanics, I'd daresay pulling a scroll of Leomund's Tiny Hut for any guy that can learn it (worst case through Ritual Caster) or a few scrolls of Catnap/Rope Trick (just one invests proficiency, if possible Expertise in Arcana for a decent chance to use it without trouble) should help... No?

[Lunali]

So step to the wind at 9 is fine but no patient defense. How bout at 20. Bout anything is better than the cap stone they have now

You'll get my free nonmagical greater invisibility and resistance to almost all damage for every fight ever when you pry it out of my cold dead hands. (4 ki at the start of every fight lets you use empty body for 1min every fight)

[stoutstien]

You'll get my free nonmagical greater invisibility and resistance to almost all damage for every fight ever when you pry it out of my cold dead hands. (4 ki at the start of every fight lets you use empty body for 1min every fight)
That at 18 not the cap stone. The cap stone is just 4 ki if you start a fight without it.

[Citan]

That at 18 not the cap stone. The cap stone is just 4 ki if you start a fight without it.
That's exactly what he said though. You didn't pay attention enough. :=)

In simpler terms, the capstone is what allows a Monk to be under effect of Empty Body in every fight he needs.

Whether using those points on Empty Body instead of trying an "emergency Stunning Strike nova" on a dangerous foe is another debate, that I daresay could never be ending on a clear-cut statement.
Because it depends on so many things (the actual foe's capabilities, party composition, current state of resources, etc).


Empty Body is overall the superior choice "by default": no save (since self-buff), no concentration (no risk of early drop), big boost in defense and offense against majority of creatures, big boost in resilience.
Stunning Strike nova being better mainly(only) against creatures against which you have a decent chance of applying Stunning Strike in the first place (aka less than +10), because you'll get only 3 attempts at most (1 ki for Flurry)
AND...
- That particular enemy has Legendary resistances (so you "sacrifice" yourself to try and wear them out before a caster pal finishes the job with an adequate debuff)
- Or it has the latent power to either put all party in danger of TPK or instakill a character

In all other cases, in theory, Empty Body is by far the better choice.
In practie, as usual, YMMV: you may have a friend that helps making Stunning Strike stick, or you may just want to bet boldly on your luck, or you are simply in a situation when being the only one to survive thanks to Empty Body is just delaying a TPK by a few rounds so might as well rely on "fate by dice". ^^

[stoutstien]

The problem with the cap stone is it's all or nothing. If you start a fight with even one ki it is completely useless. I've only seen one lv 20 monk is play so limited view but this feature was used a total of once over 7 sessions. It's fine on paper but in practice its hard to force it to work in your favor.

*Personally I would have liked to see the capstone recover 1 ki at the start of each of their turns.

[Citan]

The problem with the cap stone is it's all or nothing. If you start a fight with even one ki it is completely useless. I've only seen one lv 20 monk is play so limited view but this feature was used a total of once over 7 sessions. It's fine on paper but in practice its hard to force it to work in your favor.

*Personally I would have liked to see the capstone recover 1 ki at the start of each of their turns.
That's an argument that I see often used, but it's imo not a realistic one.

Think of it "in reverse": if you end any encounter with less than 4 Ki and have any slight doubt on the fact you may enter another hostile one before the next short rest, then simply use up those Ki.
In practice though, I'm pretty sure it does not happen that often. Let's not forget we are talking level 20 here.

If you start a fight full resources-wise and face a big nasty boss that you need to go "all-in" against, chances are either everything is finished in 3 rounds max thanks to a lucky spell, three rounds during which you spammed Stunning Strike: (1+4)*3 = 15, still 5 points left.
Or it is a more tactical and lengthy fight and chances are you'll have depleted absolutely all points between archetype abilities, Dodge, Stunning Strike, Diamond Soul.

If instead you get into a "regular" fight, why would you consume more than a few ki points over a fight? Either Empty Bodying yourself and call it a day, or use occasional Dodge/Stun as needed... Both cases you wouldn't use more than a handful Ki. And since you know the current state of your resource at any moment, it's easy to adapt your consumption to either ensure you'll keep above a desired level for next fight, or instead because you're close to 4-5 already ensure you blow whatever you have left to end with either 4 or 0.

I mean, you are a *level 20* Monk. You have been fighting hundreds (thousands?) enemies as you level, learned everything there was to be known about your abilities (at least I hope so ^^), so normally you should be competent enough in resource management, both on a strategic and tactical scale, to avoid being that short on resources for an upcoming fight.
Ambushes excepted of course. :) But in the same spirit, any level 20 party should be very, very hard to ambush unless it's all about martials with neither a Rogue nor a WIS guy with Prodigy and/or Observant and/or Alert.

So, in practice, I doubt you end with just 1, 2 or 3 ki that often. And, although it does feel gamist as hell no doubt on that, if that really bothers you that much, you can simply waste them on purpose (blow those ki on movement or something specific to your archetype).

----
From that fact assessment though, I daresay it would probably have been more intuitive and not really more inciting to "gamistery" to say, instead of...
"when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points."
something like"
"whenever you roll for Initiative and have less than 4 ki points remaining, you regain enough ki points to start with 4 ki points".
Which is still somewhat gamist admitedly.

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For a houserule, we might as well try something less "numberish"
"At level 20, your honed senses and harsh discipline allow you to quickly get back in fighting shape. Whenever you roll for Initiative, you regain WIS mod Ki points."

In both cases, only an annoying munchkinist would try and trigger factice encounters just to try and power his way with this regen mechanic. I honestly don't see it as really possible (at least not for long for me: that kind of mentality I cannot manage in a constructive way, so I'd kindly ask him to mature or find another group quickly).

And once you put aside the theorical "munchkinist risks" and just see the feature as something to improve the "adventuring flow", everyone should be happy.

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As for the "1 Ki per round" (certainly not per turn" idea, it has already been suggested in the past, not sure people actually tried it though. Barring the "munchkinist risks" (same as above: people trying tricks to artificially lenghten a fight are probably problem players in the first place), it could open some interesting resource management for a Monk when actual cold war or trench fight happens, between waiting and spare to later unleash a powerful ability, or "spend as you go" each turn...

I would probably put a hard limit on that if I tried it, either on amount of Ki you regain (like max WIS mod per encounter, max half-Monk level every short rest) or make it a "nova long-rest" feature (which ends when hostility ceases).

[stoutstien]

Lots of good points.i did mean rounds not turns on ki recharge.
Is a player purposely burning 4 or less Ki so they get the recharge next fight any less or more gamey than a player drawing out a fight for a few ki? I think the whole ki based on rest recharge demands a certain level of meta thought and planning but same could be said for just about every class besides rogues.
I have been Tracking ki usage at my tables to get a baseline and so far players spend ki freely 1-3 a turn until they get under 5 then they start spending less than 1 per turn. When they have only one left they will only spend it to escape a potentially dangerous or deadly situation. At low levels they tend to just SS spam which is actually a solid plan due to only a couple of targets being immune to stun and I doubt a low lv party is facing a helmed horror.

We are talking at level 20 here and the allure of multiclass is really strong so I believe the last feature should at least be equal to single class dips. 4 ki if your out isn't even close to Barbarian/druid/paladin options.

[Citan]

Lots of good points.i did mean rounds not turns on ki recharge.
Is a player purposely burning 4 or less Ki so they get the recharge next fight any less or more gamey than a player drawing out a fight for a few ki? I think the whole ki based on rest recharge demands a certain level of meta thought and planning but same could be said for just about every class besides rogues.
I have been Tracking ki usage at my tables to get a baseline and so far players spend ki freely 1-3 a turn until they get under 5 then they start spending less than 1 per turn. When they have only one left they will only spend it to escape a potentially dangerous or deadly situation. At low levels they tend to just SS spam which is actually a solid plan due to only a couple of targets being immune to stun and I doubt a low lv party is facing a helmed horror.

We are talking at level 20 here and the allure of multiclass is really strong so I believe the last feature should at least be equal to single class dips. 4 ki if your out isn't even close to Barbarian/druid/paladin options.
Well, I could be snarky to your players and say they need to learn how to manage. But I know I actually know nothing about them or your game so I won't. ^^

Instead, let's take your factual assessment as is and work from that.
(Although I do disagree on your last opinion since those 4 Ki are enough for either Empty Body or a SS bum rush ^^).

If we consider that you already made Step of the Wind free and Patient Defense free (or did you change mind based on thread feedback? Not sure here), those players should already have a much alleviated plate compared to normal ones.

I'm not sure a 1/turn ki regen is adequate as I said above but you should try it anyways, maybe in a one-shot, not even necessarily a 20th level, maybe just level 6-7.

Otherwise, I'd turn towards Warlock again and copycat the level 20 ability: few minutes to replenish short rest slots. I'd suggest "once per long rest replenish half Monk level". Would that be enough iyo?

If that is not enough, maybe you could play with the idea of pseudo-unlimited regen with a tradeoff: like burning HP (like Wizard's subsequent Overchannels), getting one level of Exhaustion, things like that. :)

[stoutstien]

Well, I could be snarky to your players and say they need to learn how to manage. But I know I actually know nothing about them or your game so I won't. ^^

Instead, let's take your factual assessment as is and work from that.
(Although I do disagree on your last opinion since those 4 Ki are enough for either Empty Body or a SS bum rush ^^).

If we consider that you already made Step of the Wind free and Patient Defense free (or did you change mind based on thread feedback? Not sure here), those players should alr oready have a much alleviated plate compared to normal ones.

I'm not sure a 1/turn ki regen is adequate as I said above but you should try it anyways, maybe in a one-shot, not even necessarily a 20th level, maybe just level 6-7.

Otherwise, I'd turn towards Warlock again and copycat the level 20 ability: few minutes to replenish short rest slots. I'd suggest "once per long rest replenish half Monk level". Would that be enough iyo?

If that is not enough, maybe you could play with the idea of pseudo-unlimited regen with a tradeoff: like burning HP (like Wizard's subsequent Overchannels), getting one level of Exhaustion, things like that. :)
Free step to wind seems like a safe spot to start.even if it came online at lv2 I think this alone would let the monk be more monk like without a huge change in play. Unlike rogues, a monk using ba to dash or disengage is trading a lot of offensive potential.(assuming rouge lands sneak attack with action)

Free Dodge at 15 is hard to judge without a lot of table time. Personally I don't think it would change much other than allow monks to stay on engaged if they wish.

I will probably leave the cap stone alone for now to see how those two changes impact the class first. Tho stealing the warlock style recharge has crossed my mind. A true *oh crap I need ki but taken a rest make be too big of a risk* button.

[Citan]

Free step to wind seems like a safe spot to start.even if it came online at lv2 I think this alone would let the monk be more monk like without a huge change in play. Unlike rogues, a monk using ba to dash or disengage is trading a lot of offensive potential.(assuming rouge lands sneak attack with action)

Free Dodge at 15 is hard to judge without a lot of table time. Personally I don't think it would change much other than allow monks to stay on engaged if they wish.

I will probably leave the cap stone alone for now to see how those two changes impact the class first. Tho stealing the warlock style recharge has crossed my mind. A true *oh crap I need ki but taken a rest make be too big of a risk* button.
Have fun, and if you can grab the time refresh the thread with some feedback, it's always interesting. :)

[stoutstien]

Have fun, and if you can grab the time refresh the thread with some feedback, it's always interesting. :)
Sure thing. Monks are probably the hardest to gauge due to having a single resource controlling so much.